Mod+ 257. DR. DIANE POWELL FINDS TELEPATHY AMONG AUTISTIC SAVANT CHILDREN

The dog experiment, while fascinating, is absolutely POSITIVELY miniscule in scope as compared to Powell's observations. There's nothing open to interpretation about what she is claiming this girl is doing. Comparing the two experiments is apples to oranges. And the difference between them is why I'm being so vocal about this. There is no other psychic power operating at this magnitude that I can think of. Can you?
Well the dog experiment is pretty definite. People with pets actually see this phenomenon. Ofcourse the natural assumption is that it is something like hearing the car at a distance, but when these explanations are removed by the experimental design, and the effect remains, I think that is huge.
It's sort of like you're saying that parapsychologists should throw in the towel. I mean, why should they study anything at all? Why even try? What's the point of Sheldrake or Radin or any other prominent parapsychologist studying miniscule effects (at the risk of humiliating themselves) when they can study an effect that is instead off the charts? If the end result is still the risk of career suicide, why not go for the gusto? The idea that parapsychologists shouldn't care about the very strongest displays of psi abilities is kind of bizarre, actually. I don't get it at all.
Well I'm not saying 'should', I am merely making a cynical prediction. I am giving you my explanation as to why the whole area of ψ hasn't been proven beyond all doubt (90%) or disproven beyond doubt (10%).

I think a lot of researchers are scared by the power of the 'skeptics' to make trouble. You have to ask yourself why experimenters aren't flocking to examine every experiment that seems to give positive evidence for ψ - naively you would expect huge interest.

David
 
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Well the dog experiment is pretty definite. People with pets actually see this phenomenon. Ofcourse the natural assumption is that it is something like hearing the car at a distance, but when these explanations are removed by the experimental design, and the effect remains, I think that is huge.

It's different for a multitude of reasons.


I think a lot of researchers are scared by the power of the 'skeptics' to make trouble. You have to ask yourself why experimenters aren't flocking to examine every experiment that seems to give positive evidence for ψ - naively you would expect huge interest.

I have never suggested that researchers "flock to every experiment". I am making a distinction between every other experiment and this particular experiment, which we all seem to agree shows a level or promise rarely seen. If prominent parapsychologists would rather risk their carreers dealing with small effect sizes instead of with a girl who can accurately predict 6 digit numbers 40-50 times in a row with 100% accuracy then good on them, I guess.
 
I have never suggested that researchers "flock to every experiment". I am making a distinction between every other experiment and this particular experiment, which we all seem to agree shows a level or promise rarely seen. If prominent parapsychologists would rather risk their carreers dealing with small effect sizes instead of with a girl who can accurately predict 6 digit numbers 40-50 times in a row with 100% accuracy then good on them, I guess.

We've already had a discussion on this board about these experiments and skeptics have already weighed in with disbelief. More evidence will not change that.

You're going on the assumption here that skeptics will carefully review the Powell's work and attempt to provide a credible response. What they will probably do is skip over the experiments and armchair quarterback their way to dismissing them as some sort of clever Hans trick. Never mind that this explanation doesn't fit the evidence, they don't care as long as they can provide some sort of explanation.

And one thing that never ever happen in the mainstream media is a careful review of the rebuttal from Powell that is sure to follow. Once the skeptics have had their say, that's the end of it. People like Radin have seen this happen more times than they can count, so forgive them if they don't get too excited.
 
We've already had a discussion on this board about these experiments and skeptics have already weighed in with disbelief. More evidence will not change that.

You're going on the assumption here that skeptics will carefully review the Powell's work and attempt to provide a credible response. What they will probably do is skip over the experiments and armchair quarterback their way to dismissing them as some sort of clever Hans trick. Never mind that this explanation doesn't fit the evidence, they don't care as long as they can provide some sort of explanation.

And one thing that never ever happen in the mainstream media is a careful review of the rebuttal from Powell that is sure to follow. Once the skeptics have had their say, that's the end of it. People like Radin have seen this happen more times than they can count, so forgive them if they don't get too excited.

For me personally, this doesn't have anything to do with skeptics. I should hardly expect that prominent parapsychologists should all roll over and die because their studies will be challenged by a community of skeptics. This has everything to do with how those prominent parapsychologists will mobilize or not to back up Powell's findings. Unless you or others are suggesting that it's not worth it? It that's the case, why even continue the field? What is worth studying if this isn't?
 
I don't know how you can say this with a straight (or long) face. Most people don't care about this stuff? Do you mean most people don't care whether or not it's woven into our scientific understanding of the world? Or do you mean most people don't care about the supernatural at all?

Only total losers with no friends care about this stuff.
 
It's different for a multitude of reasons.

Well of course it is, but in many ways it is easier - no tricky ethics questions, suitable dogs aren't that hard to find, and the whole setup can probably be better controlled.

Remember, all I am doing is saying what I think will happen - I certainly don't want that to be the outcome! If several people come in and check these results great, but I'm still waiting for someone to confirm or explain away the presentiment results, etc.

David
 
I suspect what would need to happen for this type of study (Dr Powell's) to really cut through, would be for it to be picked up by mainstream media. e.g the front page of Time magazine and on National TV. That would tend to 'authenticate' it in the eyes of the public and make the sceptics job more difficult. More publicity means more access to research funding and means PSI research would become a little less career damaging.
 
For me personally, this doesn't have anything to do with skeptics. I should hardly expect that prominent parapsychologists should all roll over and die because their studies will be challenged by a community of skeptics. This has everything to do with how those prominent parapsychologists will mobilize or not to back up Powell's findings. Unless you or others are suggesting that it's not worth it? It that's the case, why even continue the field? What is worth studying if this isn't?

The parapsychologists have not rolled over yet and it's doubtful they ever will. They're a sturdy bunch. And whether they back up Powell's findings is irrelevant. The mainstream media wants "balance" from skeptics and if they criticize it, which they will, that will be the end of it as far as the mainstream is concerned. The mainstream always believes the skeptics. It's the law. ;)

The "nothing to see here" attitude prevails. Now if you find the evidence personally convincing, that's fine. After all, you're taking the time to really examine the skeptical arguments and go through the evidence. But I've seen no signs in the mainstream that they will do anything except make it a one day news cycle.
 
I suspect what would need to happen for this type of study (Dr Powell's) to really cut through, would be for it to be picked up by mainstream media. e.g the front page of Time magazine and on National TV. That would tend to 'authenticate' it in the eyes of the public and make the sceptics job more difficult. More publicity means more access to research funding and means PSI research would become a little less career damaging.

I follow this stuff and it's more likely to find itself in the Weird News section. It won't make it into the science section in most cases. They aren't very good at science and that's probably intentional since good science tends to get in the way of corporate profits.
 
I think Dr. Powell is probably on to something. LIke others here, I've always felt that spectacular savant abilities make no sense at all within a materialist, strictly Darwinian framework.

On the other hand, I question whether the phenomenon can be replicated by just any experimenter.

Think of it this way. If the girl is sensitive enough to be able to pull a number out of someone's mind, then imagine how profoundly she might be affected by the thoughts and feelings of a researcher who is hostile towards psi.

It seems likely to me that success can only be achieved with the help of a sender who is wholeheartedly engaged in the process. And that means someone who is trying to communicate sincerely, and with complete focus.

It might even be the case that a "loving vibe" (for lack of a better term) is essential.

So although Dr. Powell's results may have nothing to do with the Clever Hans effect, a successful replication still might depend on first-rate teamwork. And how many skeptical researchers will take a caveat like that seriously? Or be willing or able to put in the kind of effort that's required?

Remember, too, that autistic kids can be difficult to interact with even under the best of circumstances. To get positive results, it may be necessary to create an environment that's extraordinarily supportive and tension-free. And highly skeptical researchers may not be the best people to do that.
 
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Dr. Powell is pushing forward it would seem. That's great to hear. I applaud those who feel this could definitely be a game changer as on the surface it seems like a cut and dry case of telepathy, whereas all evidence prior has left room for doubt. We need a case where there is relatively no doubt. . Get rid of all possible cueing/leakage, replicate it and that should do it. Having psi accepted by the mainstream will have to follow the same course as many other discoveries that went from fantasy to reality.
 
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Please. I'm replying to a non-sequitur with a non-sequitur. Read my original comment.
That would probably have been clearer if you had followed your remark with a smiley. Remember that the nature of discussions like this is such that many people don't connect a reply with the conversation that went before.

I think it is always frustrating if interesting discussions get lost in rather pointless sidelines.

David
 
Last week I was reading the book One Mind by Larry Dossey. In it he relates MANY stories that cover a whole range of Psi and what we might call “mystical” phenomena. I was particularly struck by one story in particular that, through an unintended anomaly shed light on some very subtle aspects of savant behaviour.

Everyone is familiar with Kim Peek (Rainman): he had amazing memory skills where he has memorized thousands of books, phone numbers, addresses etc. And also he could tell you the day of the week and even weather and notable events of any date. And we've all heard of the many cases of savants with language and music skills, where the person has acquired the skill in some unexplained manner.

These cases are indisputable, but have been explained away using materialistic models. In Kim Peek's case, for example, one might simply conclude that his physical brain is wired in such a manner as to provide amazingly increased memory capacity. As for the day of the week? Well perhaps his physical brain is also wired in such a way as to provide incredible calculation speed,,, right? No need to consider nonphysical origins here.

Keep in mind that when asked, most savants deny performing any mental calculations or operations,, they simply say something like “ I just know the answer”. Others describe what appears to be a form of synaesthesia where information is presented as forms, shapes and colors: all of which, with a little arm waving, can be materialistically explained away.

How does one materialistically explain those cases of unexplained acquisition of language and music skills? Well,, perhaps you could say that the person was exposed in some fashion, and then developed the advanced skill through coaching and prodding by others. Yes, they may have an exceptional capacity to learn,, but does that necessarily come from a metaphysical source? Perhaps not really.

So the story that struck me from the book One Mind was the story of person who, like Kim Peek, could tell you the day of the week for any date. Apparently they tested dates up to 40,000 years in the past and future. Nothing new here right? Again, perhaps this could be due to a physical brain anomaly which allows rapid calendar calculations.

Here's the unanticipated game changer.... When they asked the day of the week for a year sufficiently old and for certain European locations, they were provided days which didn't match calculations based on the modern calendar. For these earlier years they were provided days which only were correct on the pre-Gregorian calendar which was used at the time! However,, this savant didn't have the knowledge of these subtleties or perhaps even the capacity to understand such details.

Apparently these dates even confused the testers (at first) because they hadn't anticipated this aspect of calendar calculations.

So how do we explain this away? This was beyond the knowledge of the subject, so it wasn't a matter of calculation speed. It was unknown to the tester, so it wasn't “mind reading” which can be explained away by some.

To me, this is a great example of behaviour that has no explanation in materialism.

Unfortunately these things are nearly one-offs and as such are hard to reproduce. Once the
subject is aware of the effect, a sceptic can then simply and correctly say that it is still merely a (more advanced) calculation.
 
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Everyone is familiar with Kim Peek (Rainman): he had amazing memory skills where he has memorized thousands of books, phone numbers, addresses etc. And also he could tell you the day of the week and even weather and notable events of any date. And we've all heard of the many cases of savants with language and music skills, where the person has acquired the skill in some unexplained manner.
Does anyone think of asking these people about the weather and notable events for future dates?
Here's the unanticipated game changer.... When they asked the day of the week for a year year sufficiently old and for certain European locations, they were provided days which didn't match calculations based on the modern calendar. For these earlier years they were provided days which on the pre-Gregorian calendar! This savant didn't have the knowledge of these subtleties or perhaps even the capacity to understand such details.

Apparently these dates even confused the testers (at first) because they hadn't anticipated this aspect of calendar calculations.
Can you clarify this please - was Kim Peak able to transition correctly to the pre-Gregorian calendar? If he caould, this is very impressive.

My hunch is that every day of the week is vital to someone - their wedding day, or the day they were born, or whatever. I wonder if people like Kim Peak are able to tap into some record that this leaves.

David
 
Does anyone think of asking these people about the weather and notable events for future dates?

Can you clarify this please - was Kim Peak able to transition correctly to the pre-Gregorian calendar? If he caould, this is very impressive.

My hunch is that every day of the week is vital to someone - their wedding day, or the day they were born, or whatever. I wonder if people like Kim Peak are able to tap into some record that this leaves.

David

Haven’t heard of asking subjects about weather on future dates. Of course you would need to add a location to the question,

To clarify- no, I haven't heard of anyone asking Kim Peek about very old dates. And of course now that he has shed his body, it isn't possible to ask him specifically.

The evidence I am referring to is from a different subject. This effect HAS been demonstrated though. Why would it be more impressive if Kim P eek in particular could do it? Are you just looking for an additional datapoint?

And keep in mind- this subject didn't even know what a Gregorian calendar was. He just saw the correct day appear in his mind, and somehow this day was appropriate for pre vs post Gregorian.
 
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Haven’t heard of asking subjects about weather on future dates. Of course you would need to add a location to the question,

To clarify- no, I haven't heard of anyone asking Kim Peek about very old dates. And of course now that he has shed his body, it isn't possible to ask him specifically.
To me, this is an example of the taboo against ψ - it is so obvious to ask, and yet people somehow dont!
The evidence I am referring to is from a different subject. This effect HAS been demonstrated though. Why would it be more impressive if Kim P eek in particular could do it? Are you just looking for an additional datapoint?
Confusion on confusion! I thought you were talking about Kim Peak specifically. If one of these guys can go off the Gregorian calendar, that is pretty impressive - particularly if they are otherwise mentally impaired to the degree of Kim Peak.

David
 
My hunch is that every day of the week is vital to someone - their wedding day, or the day they were born, or whatever. I wonder if people like Kim Peak are able to tap into some record that this leaves.

David

I believe Kim Peek provided the weather detail that HE experienced on that date. So recalling weather from his personal experience could just be an amazing feat of memory. Which could certainly be just due to a biological brain anomaly.

Now if they had asked him the weather for a different location, that would be cool. Although the sceptic could just claim that he had memorized weather throughout the world for his entire life. Ridiculous? Yes. But how can one prove that this isn't the case?
 
particularly if they are otherwise mentally impaired to the degree of Kim Peak.

David

I think this person was profoundly impaired as well. I'll try to find the detail and share it.

Problem is- I "read this" in a audio book during a trip last week. Unfortunately this makes it hard to thumb through the book to find the reference.... : (

Does anyone out there have the book to provide the details?
 
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