Mod+ 276. DR. ALAN HUGENOT, IANDS AND THE FUTURE OF NDE RESEARCH

Alex

Administrator
#61
Alex kept pushing him for improvements on NDE studies and fretted about how NDE studies are being brushed over and undermined by hints that experiences are nothing more than chemical brain reactions, Alan narrows the conversation down to experiments that he says prove that consciousness must exist before a material brain, pointing to double slit theory and quantum electrodynamics, and claims that whoever doesn't incorporate this into their argument for NDEs, is missing something.

Alex is still not happy and brings his concern back to the double sided views being pushed in the current field of NDE, such as Sam Parnia who hints that a materialist explanation could be a viable explanation for people's experiences, by chemical reactions causing hallucinations.
Alex seems frustrated that there is no experimental design to verify NDEs and no physical process by which to replicate or demonstrate them, as you would a normal scientific experiment.
ok, but Alan is an IANDS board member! why have an IANDS (intl assoc of NDE studies)? why have an IANDS conference? If we're going to do NDE science we should do it well.
 

Alex

Administrator
#62
First, Alex started off on the wrong foot by asserting (incorrectly) that the original AWARE study had used a computer screen displaying images.
They moved on to electronic displays. I don't know why you or Alan would turn this into an issue.
 
#63
Unfortunately, I think these two videos illustrate that Alex doesn't always get the best out of some of his interviewees.

Alex, I would urge you to watch these videos to see the point. At one point Alan Hugenot sounded quite frustrated with the interview - I guess he hoped to talk more freely.

David

I like Alex's approach of playing devils advocate and pressing for more evidence and conclusive results, the first interviewer in your video seemed very guilable, where Alex was more challenging. He called him out when Hugenots tried to quote Shermer as having a spiritual moment at his wedding, does he not know Sam Harris, the spiritual atheist.

I agree Alex didn't give Hugenot an easy ride, and maybe he could have been more reasonable, but I don't think that's his style, he puts people to the sword and wants answers to questions regarding NDE research, Hugenot provides seperate arguments, that argue consciousness is seperate from the body. Quoting double slit experiment and quantum electro dynamics, I'm suspicious about these arguments also, they're only arguments, what about the Improvement on NDE research, or is it about to be hijacked by the current scientific accademics of the field, who are hinting at brushing it all of with a materialistic explanation.

I do think Alex could have gave Hugenot more time to elaborate or clarify his story, but I think Alex was just pressing on the NDE research.


I don't think Hugenot provided anything other than the double slit experiment and quantum mechanics, or electro dynamics.

Which are not new arguments and not enough to sway or convince the whole scientific community of the truth of NDEs.
 
#64
They moved on to electronic displays. I don't know why you or Alan would turn this into an issue.
Electronic displays could be a problem in that they really rely on the details of vision in the human eye/brain - so they might not be easy to see from out there.

What I would like to know is.

1) Is the final paper published somewhere?

2) Did they manage to interview any patients whose account would suggest that they might have seen the target objects?

David
 
#65
Hi Tim... can you provide a link. thx.
Yes, no problem, Alex

http://sitarchive.com/?p=2408

It's a lengthy interview but it's the best that she ever gave.

Just on the points you raised about the pictures on the shelves in Aware, as I understand it pictures on shelves is old technology. I believe they intend to attend every code (arrest) with a researcher holding up a laptop at head height where it can't be seen by anyone other than a person having an OBE. The pictures will be rotated/generated and the said picture will be timed, I believe.

But this is only what I've been able to forage for and until Dr Parnia says something, it might not be correct.
 
#66
Electronic displays could be a problem in that they really rely on the details of vision in the human eye/brain - so they might not be easy to see from out there.

What I would like to know is.

1) Is the final paper published somewhere?

2) Did they manage to interview any patients whose account would suggest that they might have seen the target objects?

David
1. yes
The paper was published in the journal 'Resuscitation'.
http://www.horizonresearch.org/main_page.php?cat_id=293
The paper: http://www.horizonresearch.org/Uploads/Journal_Resuscitation__2_.pdf
(can't find any reference to electronic display screen in the paper).

2. no
 
#67
Electronic displays could be a problem in that they really rely on the details of vision in the human eye/brain - so they might not be easy to see from out there.

What I would like to know is.

1) Is the final paper published somewhere?

2) Did they manage to interview any patients whose account would suggest that they might have seen the target objects?

David
Hi, David,

The paper is on line at horizon research. (I'll stick it up if you like)

2. No, no one had an OBE in an area with a board fitted.
 
#68
Just on the points you raised about the pictures on the shelves in Aware, as I understand it pictures on shelves is old technology. I believe they intend to attend every code (arrest) with a researcher holding up a laptop at head height where it can't be seen by anyone other than a person having an OBE. The pictures will be rotated/generated and the said picture will be timed, I believe.
That's the new AWARE II study. It is ongoing, target completion date (at least the data-gathering) 2016. I dare say it will take a while before any results are published.
 
#69
ok, but Alan is an IANDS board member! why have an IANDS (intl assoc of NDE studies)? why have an IANDS conference? If we're going to do NDE science we should do it well.
I didn't realize Alan Hugenot was a board member. I don't see him listed on the IANDS website in that capacity. IANDS has an awkward mix of researchers and experiencers. Many of the experiencers don't like the researchers. Many of the researchers don't want to be tainted by association with experiencers. I think that's why this year's conference has separated the two groups by essentially having two conferences. The IANDS conference doesn't have a peer review process for scientifically themed papers that are presented there. It's really more of a fund raiser for the organization. Most of the people who buy tickets don't want anything too "sciencey".

IANDS is basically more of an educational organization and support group, rather than a scientific or research based organization. It lets experiencers know they aren't alone. I think it does the same thing for researchers, although they have become much less involved over the years.

Given the fact that Bruce Greyson is a keynote speaker at the upcoming IANDS conference and one of the founders of IANDS - and let's not forget he is also one of the authors of the AWARE study - why didn't you interview him instead?
 
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#71
They moved on to electronic displays. I don't know why you or Alan would turn this into an issue.
It's no big deal for me, it doesn't matter. But it might have mattered to Alan, since you tried to insist he was wrong and you were right. When anyone does that to me it creates an atmosphere of distrust which may lead to the rest of the dialogue being less productive. Or maybe not. As I say, it doesn't matter to me either way.
 
#72
It's no big deal for me, it doesn't matter. But it might have mattered to Alan, since you tried to insist he was wrong and you were right. When anyone does that to me it creates an atmosphere of distrust which may lead to the rest of the dialogue being less productive. Or maybe not. As I say, it doesn't matter to me either way.

But if they moved onto using screens, isn't Alex correct and Alan wrong?

I don't get it.
 
#73
That's the new AWARE II study. It is ongoing, target completion date (at least the data-gathering) 2016. I dare say it will take a while before any results are published.
I didn't think it had actually started yet, Typoz but I could be wrong. Parnia would normally launch it with a press conference, wouldn't he ?
 
#74
But if they moved onto using screens, isn't Alex correct and Alan wrong?

I don't get it.
I don't have any reference for the use of screens except in the new AWAREII study. If someone can point to a reference where screens were used in the original AWARE study I guess we'd all be grateful. In the context of this thread I don't want to make a big deal of it, only seeking clarification.
 
#76
On the linked page it says this:
Yes, they're setting it up but I'm fairly certain that means it hasn't officially started. I could try and email Parnia but he doesn't respond to me anymore. Naturally that doesn't surprise me, very sensible to say as little as possible.
 
#77
I don't have any reference for the use of screens except in the new AWAREII study. If someone can point to a reference where screens were used in the original AWARE study I guess we'd all be grateful. In the context of this thread I don't want to make a big deal of it, only seeking clarification.
No problem
 
#78
Yes, they're setting it up but I'm fairly certain that means it hasn't officially started. I could try and email Parnia but he doesn't respond to me anymore. Naturally that doesn't surprise me, very sensible to say as little as possible.
I agree that it may not have started. However. last time I checked that page I think it said something like "awaiting permission" so there has been some progress. Plus there is a very specific end-date stated which kind of implies the clock is ticking...
 

Alex

Administrator
#80
Yes, no problem, Alex

http://sitarchive.com/?p=2408

It's a lengthy interview but it's the best that she ever gave.

Just on the points you raised about the pictures on the shelves in Aware, as I understand it pictures on shelves is old technology. I believe they intend to attend every code (arrest) with a researcher holding up a laptop at head height where it can't be seen by anyone other than a person having an OBE. The pictures will be rotated/generated and the said picture will be timed, I believe.

But this is only what I've been able to forage for and until Dr Parnia says something, it might not be correct.
thx.
 
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