9/11 Discussion Thread

Hurmanetar said:
Wish I had been on the forum sooner to engage in this topic. I am a licensed professional engineer and I signed the AE911Truth petition several years ago. For anyone with a little knowledge of physics and a worldview that permits the questioning of authority, it is patently obvious that the buildings were demolished. It is also obvious that there was a cover-up.

I see that you've stuck with this argument through all 60+ pages of discussion. I'm wondering what compels you to stick with the argument and what compels you to so vitriolically protect the official conspiracy theory?
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It gets back to the problem of competence in this field. I have some friends of mine who are engineers in other areas, (microwave technology) and even they don't understand why anyone would question the official story. It's hard to explain to them how insanely hard it is to break a building that has been tied together like a giant web.
 
Craig Weiler said:
It gets back to the problem of competence in this field. I have some friends of mine who are engineers in other areas, (microwave technology) and even they don't understand why anyone would question the official story. It's hard to explain to them how insanely hard it is to break a building that has been tied together like a giant web.
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Astounding... Do you really think competence is the major factor? I tend to think that the degree to which one's positive views about government are integral to one's overall paradigm play the key role. It seems to me that for most people, discovering 9/11 is an inside job would be as psychologically wrecking as Luke Skywalker discovering the true identity of his father or for a Christian it would be like contemplating that Jesus was a fictional character. No matter how intelligent or competent, they have insurmountable inhibitions about going there because ideas about American government being "the good guys" are so integral to their paradigm that questioning this could lead to a complete collapse of one's paradigm. I experienced this with young earth creationism. At 18 it was such an integral part of my paradigm that when I was forced to question it, I became uncertain of literally everything and had to start with "I think therefore I am". Ultimately this was obviously a good thing, but I went into an extremely depressed and borderline crazy state there for a while, so I understand why we have natural defense mechanisms to protect our paradigms.

I had a college physics professor who taught materials joining and had decades of field experience in metallurgical failure analysis. A number of years ago my 9/11 truth comments on facebook provoked him to respond. He personally knew some scentists at NIST and took offense for them that I would suggest they engaged in a cover up. He claimed their ethics were outstanding. I asked if he had ever heard about the molten steel or the sulfur. He had not. So I showed him some of the evidence. He responded that was very interesting and worthy of further investigation and that he would have to look into it... but as far as I know he never did. Every 9/11 anniversary I would ask him if he ever got around to looking into the molten steel and I got no response.
 
Hurmanetar said:
Astounding... Do you really think competence is the major factor? I tend to think that the degree to which one's positive views about government are integral to one's overall paradigm play the key role. It seems to me that for most people, discovering 9/11 is an inside job would be as psychologically wrecking as Luke Skywalker discovering the true identity of his father or for a Christian it would be like contemplating that Jesus was a fictional character. No matter how intelligent or competent, they have insurmountable inhibitions about going there because ideas about American government being "the good guys" are so integral to their paradigm that questioning this could lead to a complete collapse of one's paradigm. I experienced this with young earth creationism. At 18 it was such an integral part of my paradigm that when I was forced to question it, I became uncertain of literally everything and had to start with "I think therefore I am". Ultimately this was obviously a good thing, but I went into an extremely depressed and borderline crazy state there for a while, so I understand why we have natural defense mechanisms to protect our paradigms.

I had a college physics professor who taught materials joining and had decades of field experience in metallurgical failure analysis. A number of years ago my 9/11 truth comments on facebook provoked him to respond. He personally knew some scentists at NIST and took offense for them that I would suggest they engaged in a cover up. He claimed their ethics were outstanding. I asked if he had ever heard about the molten steel or the sulfur. He had not. So I showed him some of the evidence. He responded that was very interesting and worthy of further investigation and that he would have to look into it... but as far as I know he never did. Every 9/11 anniversary I would ask him if he ever got around to looking into the molten steel and I got no response.
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I agree that this is a large part of it, but professional competence in construction can go a long ways in undoing that belief system. I had that experience. In 2001 I did not have that much experience and bought the official story. In 2014 I revisited it and realized that it was impossible to explain the collapse as catastrophic structural failure due to the failure of the supporting structure where the planes hit. Structural steel does not shatter like that.
 
malf said:
Some balance for the impartial reader.

http://www.debunking911.com/moltensteel.htm
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This article is full of strawmen arguments, oozes with emotion, and patronizes incessantly. Anyone familiar with what scholarly work looks and sounds like will have their B-S-ometer pegged after the first few sentences.

Let's take the very first strawman:

"Let's forget for a moment that thermite doesn't explode so the claims of hearing explosions become meaningless."

Thermate is thermite with additives that speed the reaction. Nano-thermite is thermite that has the very tiny particles of reactants thoroughly mixed which greatly speeds the reaction. Analysis of the dust indicated nano-thermite with sulfur additives was used. The speed of the reaction is what dictates how the reaction sounds. The faster the reaction occurs, the more the reaction sounds like a bang. Nano-thermate burns faster than home-brewed thermite but slower than high explosives like C4. It burns fast enough to be useful in shaped cutter charges, but slow enough that the bang is less piercing than typical high explosive cutter charges.

If you want to conduct an experiment to see how the speed of reaction affects the sound of the reaction, fill a balloon with acetylene (a combustible gas commonly used in torches), and fill another balloon with a mixture of oxygen and acetylene. Light one on fire and then the other. The balloon with pure acetylene will burn more slowly because the gas has to first mix with oxygen in the air and that takes time. This is similar to how home-brewed thermite works... the mixing process is the limiting factor on the reaction time. The balloon with the mixture of oxygen and acetylene will burn almost instantly because almost no mixing time is required. The same amount of energy is released but the intensity of the sound is greatly increased in the fast reaction. The acetylene balloon will sound like a whoosh-bang. The mixed balloon may leave your ears bleeding and car alarms going off down the street. (for the record I don't recommend attempting this experiment unless proper safety measures are implemented). A friend of mine in college attempted this experiment after hours in the welding lab except with trash bags instead of balloons. The bag with the mixture rattled windows across campus while the bag with only acetylene produced a whoosh-bang that couldn't be heard outside the lab.

"The next piece of evidence they point to is the color [of the molten metal], which is a bright yellow at the center. They say aluminum is silver when melted. While this is true, at higher temperatures it can be yellow."

What? Melted aluminum is yellow? I've melted, welded, and plasma cut aluminum. It doesn't turn yellow. Anyone who has seen the pictures/videos/testimonies/artifacts of the molten metal and claims it is aluminum is either disingenuous or woefully ignorant.

"The colormeansnothing."

haha... is the author attempting a Jedi mind trick over weak-minded readers? I think so...

I will try to address some of the other fallacies in the article when I have time.
 
Craig Weiler said:
I agree that this is a large part of it, but professional competence in construction can go a long ways in undoing that belief system. I had that experience. In 2001 I did not have that much experience and bought the official story. In 2014 I revisited it and realized that it was impossible to explain the collapse as catastrophic structural failure due to the failure of the supporting structure where the planes hit. Structural steel does not shatter like that.
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I agree... a combination of theoretical knowledge and experience in industry can go a long way.

I was an un-awakened Bush supporter who wanted to join the Marines to fight the terr'ists when I first encountered the evidence in the form of a one page paper put out by Steven Jones titled something like "10 reasons why a physicist questions the official story of 9/11." When I saw the title I scoffed, but after reading the page my curiosity was piqued and it was plainly obvious that if the claims were true, that we were all seriously duped. I did further investigation and found out that the claims were in fact true and my political paradigm was subsequently revolutionized. I was warned by a patriotic christian friend to be cautious about the 9/11 stuff because he had a few friends who began with questioning 9/11 and ended up losing their religion. He was right! Though 9/11 wasn't the kicker that started me onto a path of spiritual questioning I think there is a strong correlation between those who are politically awakening and those who are spiritually awakening.
 
Hurmanetar said:
I agree... a combination of theoretical knowledge and experience in industry can go a long way.

I was an un-awakened Bush supporter who wanted to join the Marines to fight the terr'ists when I first encountered the evidence in the form of a one page paper put out by Steven Jones titled something like "10 reasons why a physicist questions the official story of 9/11." When I saw the title I scoffed, but after reading the page my curiosity was piqued and it was plainly obvious that if the claims were true, that we were all seriously duped. I did further investigation and found out that the claims were in fact true and my political paradigm was subsequently revolutionized. I was warned by a patriotic christian friend to be cautious about the 9/11 stuff because he had a few friends who began with questioning 9/11 and ended up losing their religion. He was right! Though 9/11 wasn't the kicker that started me onto a path of spiritual questioning I think there is a strong correlation between those who are politically awakening and those who are spiritually awakening.
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Interesting you should mention that. Last year I decided that I wasn't getting enough community. Long story short I just joined a Unitarian Universalist fellowship nearby. It matches my need to not believe in anything beyond vague ideas about the fundamental nature of consciousness.
 
Hurmanetar said:
I will try to address some of the other fallacies in the article when I have time.
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The article in question has already been posted previously in this thread. It's content was hashed out and found wanting. So you can probably save yourself the effort :)
It is, as you correctly point out, a strawman argument against the presence of molten steel. But there are several independant lines of converging evidence for molten steel already cited in this thread. E.g:
 
lhl said:
The article in question has already been posted previously in this thread. It's content was hashed out and found wanting. So you can probably save yourself the effort :)
It is, as you correctly point out, a strawman argument against the presence of molten steel. But there are several independant lines of converging evidence for molten steel already cited in this thread. E.g:
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Thanks for pointing out that it's already been hashed out... I'll save my words!

When I have any kind of conversation about 9/11 evidence, I typically start with the molten steel because the topic is about as simple as you can get and the evidence is indisputable to anyone with the slightest bit of an open mind or the slightest bit of metalworking experience.

Does anyone have any predictions about how or when the knowledge that 9/11 was a false flag will be generally accepted by historians into the mainstream? Are we approaching the "tipping point", or is this tipping point as illusory as the fall of mainstream materialism? Or are we in the midst of the tipping point and we just don't realize it because we are focused on the armchair skeptics and the skewed perception provided by the mainstream infotainment media? I think that the proliferation of knowledge via the internet must speed up the process of historical revision. If things progress without too much interruption, I can foresee this tipping point occurring within 10 to 20 years; however, if there is another dramatic false flag attack (or even a real rogue attack) such as a nuclear attack on a city, I am afraid that the paranoia and madness that would sweep the nation might send critical thinking back into the dark ages and those who suggest nefarious actions by our own government could have their free speech and even their lives snuffed out. Bush famously said regarding 9/11, "let us never tolerate outrageous conspiracy theories..." He said that before the Patriot act, homeland security, and host of executive usurpation orders took away our bill of rights. When the next big one occurs - and Cheney assures us it is just around the corner - the next president will have the tools at his disposal to ensure zero tolerance of "conspiracy theories."
 
Craig Weiler said:
Interesting you should mention that. Last year I decided that I wasn't getting enough community. Long story short I just joined a Unitarian Universalist fellowship nearby. It matches my need to not believe in anything beyond vague ideas about the fundamental nature of consciousness.
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I'm glad you were able to find a good community to fellowship with. That is something I need as well. I currently go to a "house-church" on Sundays. It is really just me, my girlfriend, and two other friends eating some breakfast tacos, talking about our week, and then either reading the Bible and discussing or just simply hashing out philosophical or theological questions. We definitely don't all see eye to eye on everything, but we have some good discussions. I would eventually like to find some other locals who enjoy topics such as those discussed on Skeptiko. Perhaps a Universalist fellowship would eventually be a good place.
 
Hurmanetar said:
I'm glad you were able to find a good community to fellowship with. That is something I need as well. I currently go to a "house-church" on Sundays. It is really just me, my girlfriend, and two other friends eating some breakfast tacos, talking about our week, and then either reading the Bible and discussing or just simply hashing out philosophical or theological questions. We definitely don't all see eye to eye on everything, but we have some good discussions. I would eventually like to find some other locals who enjoy topics such as those discussed on Skeptiko. Perhaps a Universalist fellowship would eventually be a good place.
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It certainly works for me. Bear in mind that UU isn't Christian and doesn't use the bible. Atheists are welcome and our congregation in fact, has several. My area, SF Bay Area in California, is also well suited to UU. No one cares what religion you are here. Anyone you meet might be a member of any religion under the sun.

UU is good for those who really don't want to be told what to believe.
 
Hurmanetar said:
Astounding... Do you really think competence is the major factor? I tend to think that the degree to which one's positive views about government are integral to one's overall paradigm play the key role. It seems to me that for most people, discovering 9/11 is an inside job would be as psychologically wrecking as Luke Skywalker discovering the true identity of his father or for a Christian it would be like contemplating that Jesus was a fictional character. No matter how intelligent or competent, they have insurmountable inhibitions about going there because ideas about American government being "the good guys" are so integral to their paradigm that questioning this could lead to a complete collapse of one's paradigm. I experienced this with young earth creationism. At 18 it was such an integral part of my paradigm that when I was forced to question it, I became uncertain of literally everything and had to start with "I think therefore I am". Ultimately this was obviously a good thing, but I went into an extremely depressed and borderline crazy state there for a while, so I understand why we have natural defense mechanisms to protect our paradigms.

I had a college physics professor who taught materials joining and had decades of field experience in metallurgical failure analysis. A number of years ago my 9/11 truth comments on facebook provoked him to respond. He personally knew some scentists at NIST and took offense for them that I would suggest they engaged in a cover up. He claimed their ethics were outstanding. I asked if he had ever heard about the molten steel or the sulfur. He had not. So I showed him some of the evidence. He responded that was very interesting and worthy of further investigation and that he would have to look into it... but as far as I know he never did. Every 9/11 anniversary I would ask him if he ever got around to looking into the molten steel and I got no response.
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Welcome to the forum, Hurmanetar. I've really enjoyed reading your comments thus far.
 
Craig Weiler said:
It certainly works for me. Bear in mind that UU isn't Christian and doesn't use the bible. Atheists are welcome and our congregation in fact, has several. My area, SF Bay Area in California, is also well suited to UU. No one cares what religion you are here. Anyone you meet might be a member of any religion under the sun.

UU is good for those who really don't want to be told what to believe.
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What's the point? Couldn't you just find a new hobby or something? Why do you have to be such a pussy?
 
Christopher Bollyn 2015 “Solving 911 Ends the War”


Christopher Bollyn 2015 “Solving 911 Ends the War”

In the name of 9/11, “wars have been waged, governments overthrown, and an untold number of lives sacrificed.” Yet 9/11 is an unsolved crime of terrorism and mass murder, with no trial and no serious investigation. This elaborately planned criminal deception was carried out “with the intention that the public would be deceived with a false explanation blaming the atrocity on Osama Bin Laden and Al Quaida....”

Christopher Bollyn states he has written “Solving 9-11: the Deception that Changed the World” because he could not remain indifferent and silent...”as the lies about 9/11 were used to wage wars of aggression and transform American into a police state.”

An investigative journalist from Illinois, Bollyn sojourned in Europe and the Middle East before studying languages, history and journalism at UC Davis and Santa Cruz. His degree in history focused on the Israeli occupation of Palestine. He has written in-depth articles about the Middle East, electronic vote fraud, the dangers of depleted uranium, and the history and geo-political background of 9/11.

In 2007, Bollyn and his family moved to Sweden when his research into 9/11 brought about his being attacked by undercover police and then charged with assaulting them. He began writing this book and has been touring in the US with the hope of raising the consciousness of the American public and exposing the true culprits.

Readers of his book have said it is “the top-notch work of the 9/11 collection and ...the work of a brave genius...information we can use to reformulate our worldview....gives me hope that truth and liberty can ultimately prevail.”

More information at www.bollyn.com.
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That is an interesting video Slorri. If he correct, then, wow.

Looking into some of his points has led me to new material such as the FEMA videographer exiled in Argentina:

http://www.voltairenet.org/article160636.html


However, much of his argument is circumstantial. I guess if I want more detail I'll have to buy the book ;)

I am also not convinced that his assertions about ISIS atrocities being largely fabricated are accurate. There are too many accounts from different sources.
 
Video fakery.

07 - The Key


The key to solving 9/11 is something called a "key". Understanding video compositing technology, both its capabilities AND limitations, proves no planes, and therefore proves demolition.

Ace Baker offers a $100,000 reward to anyone who has an ORIGINAL QUALITY 9/11 airplane video.
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