Al Borealis, Universal Health Care Trap? |478|

so the one sponsored by the koch Brothers - who are fighting against UHC - is also social justice gibberish?

and black is white? war is peace?

Let's agree to disagree bro.

I'm not confusing anything. The point is that whichever of your systems, single payer = tax funded with price controls on everything, including salaries. It also means rationing.

I already addressed the "studies"that allegedly state the US is the most expensive and least effective. Those studies are not actually clinical. They are social justice goobeldyguk. A true comparison is the health outcome given the same demographic, same symptoms/same condition. That is not what the so called studies are doing.
 
To be clear: If i was dictator - I would choose the swedish solution for my country. Trump argued for the same - no lockdowns - just because he's worried about his hotels. Be that as it may, Sweden still exists, they didn't break down. Freedom has a cost, and it would have to be at the level of the Black Plague for me to consider that cost too high and go for lock-downs.

You don't have to opt for the socialist version (NHS). you can go for the centrist or right wing version. Point is they are all Univversal Health cares. Its not more "socialist" to have that, than to have a universal fire department. Also, these are not theoretical ideas or experiments, they've been around in the world fora century now. There's no surprises, we know how it works.

And yes, in the pandemic the entire society is being transformed, including the health care system - and so far not to the better. But that transformation occurs in all sectors of society no matter how we finance health.

You will have the same hospitals and doctors and nurses with UHC, there wont come marching in an army of soviet or nazi docs. Only difference is hospitals will no longer focus on profit but on treatment, and doctors will no longer focus on bureauchratic work, but on their job. But the pandemic may take over their focus in all systems, no matter how it is financed.

Sweden has same system as us and did not go for lockdown. They went for herd immunity - under a socialist government. We went for lockdown under a conservative government. Result in Sweden: More deaths but no industry killed. In norway: Less deaths, yet some industry killed (but no folks going bankrupt because everyone got their salary subsidized by government who also subsided industries so as to avoid whats going on in USA)
 
Its true that the best docs and hospitals are in the USA.

But it doesn't give that to the MOST people as you claim. You need data to backup this extraordinary claim.

The elite clinics are reserved for the oligarchs and 1 percenters. They will not vanish or somehow become incompetent when the rest of the people also get access to Health Care. They will thrieve just fine. We also have private elite clinics only the wealthiest use.

What is "Social justice stuff"? If you belong to a tribe, and that tribe makes sure everything works smooth for everyone, and protects each other against dangerous attacks from animals or other tribes, is that social justice stuff? If so, sign me on. I wont live in an incompetent tribe where they run for the hills everytime theres danger and leave children, elderly, sick, and weak behind...

Also: Why is it moral and practical to have universal fire department? Isnt that "social justice stuff" also? In america yuou experimented with private fire departments 100 years ago. Then you experienced what a retarded child could predict: Stuff went out of hand. Fire spread to also those who could afford to pay for putting it out. You realized you were in the same boat and might as well pull together to solve it. I suspect it was becaus efire ruins material wealth, and not becaus eof the lives it kills. Thats the only difference to UHC - it doesnt protect material assets, "just" lives...

Australian model isnt an argument against UHC. It IS a working model for UHC. You're taking parts of how it operates and use it against NHS. You might as well take part of how it operate sand use it against the US system.

Also claiming Big Pharma doesnt run USA is incredible. That's where most of Big Pharma has their HQ.

I suspect you are working in the insurance company industry. I know those people are desperatly fighting the changing sentiments in the US. and all over social media as this is our current town square. If you do, I can reassure you (pun indended): You wont go out of business when you implement UHC. There's still plenty to do for insurance companies within Health, notwithstanding outside of health.

Our insurance companies are some of the most powerful companies... It's all good bro, just dont sell your soul - let other people have their health care and become more harmonic, it will make the society more harmonic with less crimes, and thereby huge savings for insurance companies..
Where to even begin....

Yes. I work for one of the big insurance companies. I have also worked for a regional not-for-profit Blue Cross/Blue Shield plan. IN your socialist zeal you have overlooked that many insurance companies in the US are regional and not for profit. I also once worked in the US intelligence community. Instead of people around thinking that might give me unique insights worth listening to, they think I am here to lie to them, like an info op. Whatever.

The best clinics and hospitals, etc are NOT just for the 1%. We regularly send our every day members to the Cleveland Clinic, Mayo Clinic, whatever Clinic meets their needs if those needs are special. And we even pay for the travel/hotel. That is a fact. You have a perverted socialist's view that is materially incorrect.

I know exactly how the Australian model works. I studied and compared it o the US system for my masters thesis.

Let me give you an example of rationing in the Australian system. A woman has breast cancer. The system pays for the mastectomy. That's it. If the woman wants breast reconstruction, she must pay for it herself - about $15K in USD. In the US, the reconstruction is a covered benefit as part of the package. Insurance pays for it. There are a myriad of similar examples where the socialized systems ration care that is routinely covered by insurance in the US. In the interest of parity and equity, even the US socialized systems, like Medicaid (for the indigent), Medicare (for the elderly (>65) and the ACA (Obamacare) cover the reconstruction. Again, that is one example, but it illustrates why the US delivers the best for the most.

Claiming that big Pharma runs the US is like a cliched comic book level understanding of how things work. I ask again, how can a business that represent 14% of the total, control the whole thing? But I'll bite - what do you even mean "runs the country"? That's a meaningless statement.
 
What rubbish. Have you been to Norway? Have you experienced our health system? Seems you've drunk som kool aid propaganda. I don't recognize the reality you are describing. If any health system is falling apart, it's the coporate US model.

btw, Big Pharma, who you claim are powerless in USA because the brave insurance companies (owned by the same owners who own Big Parma) somehow are figthing them for some exotic reason, is owning your FDA. Yes, Big Pharma has corrupted the entire FDA.

Alex,
There is no insurance that makes anyone come out of pocket $20K to have a baby. Unless someone who is fairly well off deliberately purchases a catastrophic coverage only plan (low premium, kicks in only after a relatively high expense has been reached).

If you can't afford insurance there is the ACA, with a sliding federal subsidy scale based on income and there's Medicaid for those who are truly indigent. That's free.

Typically, the max OOP would be $3,500. Mostly much lower on any policy that one gets via employment or the ACA. Medicaid (for poor people) doesn't even have copays/deductibles.

Where did your $20K figure come from?

Norway and Sweden were once small homogenous countries with high taxes and social services support from profits from nationalized oil industry. Though now that they have elected to be invaded by Muslim hordes, their social network, including healthcare, is beginning to fall apart.

Apples to potatoes comparison.
 
To be clear: If i was dictator - I would choose the swedish solution for my country. Trump argued for the same - no lockdowns - just because he's worried about his hotels. Be that as it may, Sweden still exists, they didn't break down. Freedom has a cost, and it would have to be at the level of the Black Plague for me to consider that cost too high and go for lock-downs.
On that point, with regards to Covid-19, I couldn't agree more with you.
 
What rubbish. Have you been to Norway? Have you experienced our health system? Seems you've drunk som kool aid propaganda. I don't recognize the reality you are describing. If any health system is falling apart, it's the coporate US model.

btw, Big Pharma, who you claim are powerless in USA because the brave insurance companies (owned by the same owners who own Big Parma) somehow are figthing them for some exotic reason, is owning your FDA. Yes, Big Pharma has corrupted the entire FDA.
Dude - polls consistently show that Americans are happy with their insurance and don't want to lose it.

I did not Pharma is "Powerless" - I inferred that their level of power is proportionate to their market share and that they are kept in check by larger more powerful interests.

Norway is hardly comparable in any way to the US. The compare is meaningless.

They have been made to believe - like you do - that other people are suffering, but they report that they themselves are not.

Even CNN - our left-wing news outlet, consistently reports satisfaction among Americans with their private healthcare insurance. THat's even after CNN tries to disparage it. https://www.cnn.com/2019/12/09/politics/gallup-private-health-insurance-satisfaction/index.html

These are not difficult things to, you know, Google.

I get it now - you are yet another conspiracy theorist who believes that "big Pharma" colluded to create a fake pandemic so they could sell lots of vaccines. Sigh.
 
Just like in Uk, none pay a dime for giving birth, let alone paying for "skin contact" with the infant. The very idea is outragous. No one in our poltiical landscape are in favour of this insanity, neither libertarians, fascists, conservatives, socialists, communists, social-democrats, christian moderates, greens, liberals, etc, etc is for this shit. Everyone agrees about UHC. And it would be suicide anyway if any party proposed the US model.

But if you ask the insurance companies in Norway if they would like to take over the financial side of the health care system and skim it, im sure they would jump on it. People are as greedy here as over there.

thx. what about countries like Norway and Sweden?

And what about the birthing thing? does joe-six-pack really have to come out-of-pocket $20K to have a kid?
 
I suspected this from the very outset. You have a partial interest in this which makes your views tainted. Even if you're not dishonest, you're clearly biased.

I, however, am not compromised. I work as a part-time judge and am used to consider both sides. I am also a lover of free markets. And I am telling you from experience, our system works and people are content with it. Noone wants the draconian corporate model. We are fine with health care being both a private business and a state subsidized business.

I wont continue discussing the matter with you. Anyone who wants to and have the time, can research this matter on their own. There's no lack of data. Noon ehas to take your word for it, or my word for it. As long as info still is freely available to the public. Viva Libertas!


Where to even begin....

Yes. I work for one of the big insurance companies. I have also worked for a regional not-for-profit Blue Cross/Blue Shield plan. IN your socialist zeal you have overlooked that many insurance companies in the US are regional and not for profit. I also once worked in the US intelligence community. Instead of people around thinking that might give me unique insights worth listening to, they think I am here to lie to them, like an info op. Whatever.

The best clinics and hospitals, etc are NOT just for the 1%. We regularly send our every day members to the Cleveland Clinic, Mayo Clinic, whatever Clinic meets their needs if those needs are special. And we even pay for the travel/hotel. That is a fact. You have a perverted socialist's view that is materially incorrect.

I know exactly how the Australian model works. I studied and compared it o the US system for my masters thesis.

Let me give you an example of rationing in the Australian system. A woman has breast cancer. The system pays for the mastectomy. That's it. If the woman wants breast reconstruction, she must pay for it herself - about $15K in USD. In the US, the reconstruction is a covered benefit as part of the package. Insurance pays for it. There are a myriad of similar examples where the socialized systems ration care that is routinely covered by insurance in the US. In the interest of parity and equity, even the US socialized systems, like Medicaid (for the indigent), Medicare (for the elderly (>65) and the ACA (Obamacare) cover the reconstruction. Again, that is one example, but it illustrates why the US delivers the best for the most.

Claiming that big Pharma runs the US is like a cliched comic book level understanding of how things work. I ask again, how can a business that represent 14% of the total, control the whole thing? But I'll bite - what do you even mean "runs the country"? That's a meaningless statement.
 
CNN is a corporate tool - in favour of your corporate health system - and as far as "left" goes, they are pro DNC (coporatism) - ask any actual left winger (socialist, communist, social-democrat, progressive) what they think of CNN.

And the people happy with their insurance are those who havn't had to use it yet. These other people are not a myth, google it, its amillion perosnal stories which adds up. Even on this forum theres personal stories. When you see them you dismiss them as isolated outliers. when they add up, you dismiss them as propaganda.

Also, those in favour of their insurance dont know what the alternative is. Every American living in Norway admits the way its operated in US is worse. The same is probably true for all expat americans, except those in nigeria and Saudi Arabia who agree with the US and doesnt offer UHC.

Dude - polls consistently show that Americans are happy with their insurance and don't want to lose it.

I did not Pharma is "Powerless" - I inferred that their level of power is proportionate to their market share and that they are kept in check by larger more powerful interests.

Norway is hardly comparable in any way to the US. The compare is meaningless.

They have been made to believe - like you do - that other people are suffering, but they report that they themselves are not.

Even CNN - our left-wing news outlet, consistently reports satisfaction among Americans with their private healthcare insurance. THat's even after CNN tries to disparage it. https://www.cnn.com/2019/12/09/politics/gallup-private-health-insurance-satisfaction/index.html

These are not difficult things to, you know, Google.

I get it now - you are yet another conspiracy theorist who believes that "big Pharma" colluded to create a fake pandemic so they could sell lots of vaccines. Sigh.
 
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Because you have legalized bribes. Politicians works for the oligarchs. As your own university studies has proven, US is now an oligarchy. And when virtually everyone there eventually works for these globalist coporations (except the unemployed hordes) because theres no small businesses left, everyone will share your attitude and defend the oligarchy because they work for the companies owed by the oligarchs. Dystopian nightmare in fruition.

Where to even begin....

Yes. I work for one of the big insurance companies. I have also worked for a regional not-for-profit Blue Cross/Blue Shield plan. IN your socialist zeal you have overlooked that many insurance companies in the US are regional and not for profit. I also once worked in the US intelligence community. Instead of people around thinking that might give me unique insights worth listening to, they think I am here to lie to them, like an info op. Whatever.

The best clinics and hospitals, etc are NOT just for the 1%. We regularly send our every day members to the Cleveland Clinic, Mayo Clinic, whatever Clinic meets their needs if those needs are special. And we even pay for the travel/hotel. That is a fact. You have a perverted socialist's view that is materially incorrect.

I know exactly how the Australian model works. I studied and compared it o the US system for my masters thesis.

Let me give you an example of rationing in the Australian system. A woman has breast cancer. The system pays for the mastectomy. That's it. If the woman wants breast reconstruction, she must pay for it herself - about $15K in USD. In the US, the reconstruction is a covered benefit as part of the package. Insurance pays for it. There are a myriad of similar examples where the socialized systems ration care that is routinely covered by insurance in the US. In the interest of parity and equity, even the US socialized systems, like Medicaid (for the indigent), Medicare (for the elderly (>65) and the ACA (Obamacare) cover the reconstruction. Again, that is one example, but it illustrates why the US delivers the best for the most.

Claiming that big Pharma runs the US is like a cliched comic book level understanding of how things work. I ask again, how can a business that represent 14% of the total, control the whole thing? But I'll bite - what do you even mean "runs the country"? That's a meaningless statement.
 
Because you have legalized bribes. Politicians works for the oligarchs. As your own university studies has proven, US is now an oligarchy. And when virtually everyone there eventually works for these globalist coporations (except the unemployed hordes) because theres no small businesses left, everyone will share your attitude and defend the oligarchy because they work for the companies owed by the oligarchs. Dystopian nightmare in fruition.
So your solution is to give the corrupt government more power? Power over our healthcare?

You contradict yourself. In the US, there is still ample choice that private consumers can make. What could be more egalitarian than not-for-profit insurance companies with a mission to provide maximum quality coverage while ensuring providers that they will be paid and should maintain robust networks? Give the US govt that power, and choice is gone.

You like free markets? Good. The US system is a free market. Are there examples of cronies capitalism? Sure. There always will be and there are in your country too. Do we throw out the baby with the bath water? A utopian fools does. A reasonable man who weighs alternatives does not. I have no idea what these "Legal bribes" are supposed to be. More wild imagination on your part.

I think you know little of how things work in the US and you are merely thrashing and tilting at the windmills you have constructed in your head.
 
No.

The only thing politicans ought to do is to legislate a new law similar to the one concerning the fire department and offer universal health care.

Politicans shall not start working as docotors, they shall not start working as hostpital adminsitrators, they shall not drive the ambulances.

They should just agree to direct some of the waste on Wars, National Secrutiy State, and kick-back to corporations, and invest that into Health. Actually, I take that back - let your politicans keep wasting your money, seeing as UHC SAVES money, just let them get it out of the dirty grip of the Corporations, let it run by itself for less cost where the service is free, and let the savings go back to the people in reduced taxes.

US a free market? Don't make me laugh. It's the most corrupt, rigged, corporate controlled mafia system the world has ever seen. It used not always be like that, but it is today. The markeds here in this social-democratic country are more free (although we have our share of globalist sharks wanting to seize them).

All this was true before the pandemic. After it, even pretending anything else is ridiculous. You have just destroyed entire industries. Hair-dressers, gyms, cafes, etc are now d crushed. The pieces are picked up by the corporations. They have record high profits. Bill gates owns most of the farm land. Jeff Bezos owns most of the trading. EVERY industry in US, from space to nails. is dominated by global corporations who practically have monpoly. Your telecom is a joke compared to ours, where antitrust laws actually work.

And you are so deluded you think you live in a free marked? No wonder you think Health care works and that FDA is doing their job.

Some links for this, as far as health care goes:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7054854/

https://www.statnews.com/feature/prescription-politics/prescription-politics/

https://www.forbes.com/sites/michel...g-abbvie-sanofi-merck-pfizer/?sh=1dc8877f1da2

Legalized bribes = citizens united. You let your politicans be paid by coporations. As your university studies have proved, they are doing their bidding. All policy being legislated the last decades have entirelly been in favour of corporations, not the people - usually to their detriment. Google it.

Youre far too smart to actually believe your outlandish opinions, which makes me think it's not an honest debate. You can have the last word, I dont have time or interest to keep bickering about it. People will make up their own mind based upon their experiance, understanding and what info they resaerch. So there's no point for us to go on about it. We're not doing the world a service here.


So your solution is to give the corrupt government more power? Power over our healthcare?

You contradict yourself. In the US, there is still ample choice that private consumers can make. What could be more egalitarian than not-for-profit insurance companies with a mission to provide maximum quality coverage while ensuring providers that they will be paid and should maintain robust networks? Give the US govt that power, and choice is gone.

You like free markets? Good. The US system is a free market. Are there examples of cronies capitalism? Sure. There always will be and there are in your country too. Do we throw out the baby with the bath water? A utopian fools does. A reasonable man who weighs alternatives does not. I have no idea what these "Legal bribes" are supposed to be. More wild imagination on your part.

I think you know little of how things work in the US and you are merely thrashing and tilting at the windmills you have constructed in your head.
 
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No.

The only thing politicans ought to do is to legislate a new law similar to the one concerning the fire department and offer universal health care.

Politicans shall not start working as docotors, they shall not start working as hostpital adminsitrators, they shall not drive the ambulances.

They should just agree to direct some of the waste on Wars, National Secrutiy State, and kick-back to corporations, and invest that into Health. Actually, I take that back - let your politicans keep wasting your money, seeing as UHC SAVES money, just let them get it out of the dirty grip of the Corporations, let it run by itself for less cost where the service is free, and let the savings go back to the people in reduced taxes.

US a free market? Don't make me laugh. It's the most corrupt, rigged, corporate controlled mafia system the world has ever seen. It used not always be like that, but it is today. The markeds here in this social-democratic country are more free (although we have our share of globalist sharks wanting to seize them).

All this was true before the pandemic. After it, even pretending anything else is ridiculous. You have just destroyed entire industries. Hair-dressers, gyms, cafes, etc are now d crushed. The pieces are picked up by the corporations. They have record high profits. Bill gates owns most of the farm land. Jeff Bezos owns most of the trading. EVERY industry in US, from space to nails. is dominated by global corporations who practically have monpoly. Your telecom is a joke compared to ours, where antitrust laws actually work.

And you are so deluded you think you live in a free marked? No wonder you think Health care works and that FDA is doing their job.

Some links for this, as far as health care goes:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7054854/

https://www.statnews.com/feature/prescription-politics/prescription-politics/

https://www.forbes.com/sites/michel...g-abbvie-sanofi-merck-pfizer/?sh=1dc8877f1da2

Legalized bribes = citizens united. You let your politicans be paid by coporations. As your university studies have proved, they are doing their bidding. All policy being legislated the last decades have entirelly been in favour of corporations, not the people - usually to their detriment. Google it.

Youre far too smart to actually believe your outlandish opinions, which makes me think it's not an honest debate. You can have the last word, I dont have time or interest to keep bickering about it. People will make up their own mind based upon their experiance, understanding and what info they resaerch. So there's no point for us to go on about it. We're not doing the world a service here.
Where I live the fire department is all volunteer. I know of towns where is privately supplied.

A healthcare system in a country as large and diverse as the US is not like a fire department. You seriously think that heart transplants to annual screenings for cancer to keeping a premature infant alive is like squirting a fire hose on a burning house? A fire truck is primitive tech compared to what goes into your basic hospital room. Any lunkhead with a modicum of courage can be a fireman. That is hardly the same a completing medical school and becoming a top notch specialist in the medical field.

Have you ever traveled across the US? Do you have any idea the challenges involved in incentivizing physicians, clinics and hospitals to remain in less populated areas? In dangerous poor urban areas? Healthcare system is no good if you have no access to care givers. You have to maintain robust provider networks with all of the specialists, etc that people need.

You want to blame the government and corporations. Do you have any idea what a powerful interest block the physicians (see, for example, the AMA) and hospitals represent? They are solidly against socialized and/or single payer. Why don't you read their arguments?
 
Silence: I see the problem. You conflate free marked with the corporate model US is suffering from.

Rest assured, in every UHC solution in the world, except those who run the socialist version as NHS in UK - it's a flourishing marked. Here in social-democratic scandinavia, health care is probably the largest marked now, at least after the pandemic. Apothecaries, medicines, clinics, pharmacies, conmplementary health, services, elder care, whole foods, denistry, etc, etc - all across the industry its booming as never before. Everyone in this industry is buying extra pants with more pockets for their profit. High scale docs are among the richest of normal jobs (not counting oligarchs).

And we the people still can get whatever treatment & help we want free at the point of service. The only health insurance I've ever bought was for my cat.

So there's no bathwater to throw out. Just get that poor U.S. baby out of the burning fire...

This is endemic of many issues discussed here these days. Positions are thrown up based on individuals' own appeals to authority or small sample sizes of evidence (i.e., the experience of an individual). It fits a narrative (i.e., capitalism is evil in this case) and runs often unchallenged and ultimately accepted as reality.

I was waiting for you to wade into this discussion knowing you actually are an expert in this field. Unsurprisingly, you point out several flaws in the narrative that had been embraced. Notably, you didn't (I believe correctly) call the U.S. healthcare system a panacea but it also isn't evil incarnate. We should be considering ways to improve the bathwater (healthcare) without throwing out the baby (free markets).
 
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Shane: My interpreation (opinion, not a fact) is that Affordable Care Act ("Obama Care") made the current system even shittier.

Although it did expand medicare to some poor people (an alibi to do implement the reforms) - not only did it throw the carcass to the insurance vultures to feast on, and you'll be hard pressed to loosen it from the grip of their claws, but it still didn't offer universal coverage - in other words you would had been better off with the original faulty system and think of another way to expand coverage (like public option - which the corporations hate because although they can stay in the game and loot it, the greedy bastards realize that the public option will be a powerful player pressing prices down, which will reduce their profit margins slightly - so they fight even that, not giving an inch, just to keep absolute control).

In my conversation with Robert Bonomo (called the Money Game) he explain how USA got that weird health system to begin with. He explains why its tied to jobs and why it was implemented in the first place. And all of it made kinda sense back in the day, when everyone was employed and the markeds were free and the living standard was booming. Whoever few wasnt covered, could get their due from charities, voluntaires, and other marginale options. Everyone also got the health care they were entitled to, to begin with.

But thats generations ago and what kinda worked then doesnt work anymore. You're not the same country anymore. And your system has been coopted by the globalist corporations, who are now coming for the rest of us. This is the selfish reason why we care about you and want you to stop it.

You absolutely have no idea what you are talking about in regards to Obama "scam" care. What really happens is that you are forced to get "health coverage" by the government, and if you don't get it, you get a HUGE penalty. Also, the premiums are absolutely ludicrous unless you have little to NO INCOME at all. I know, I lived through this, and was on the phone with the clowns for hours on end. Total Joke.
 
Shane: My interpreation (opinion, not a fact) is that Affordable Care Act ("Obama Care") made the current system even shittier.

Although it did expand medicare to some poor people (an alibi to do implement the reforms) - not only did it throw the carcass to the insurance vultures to feast on, and you'll be hard pressed to loosen it from the grip of their claws, but it still didn't offer universal coverage - in other words you would had been better off with the original faulty system and think of another way to expand coverage (like public option - which the corporations hate because although they can stay in the game and loot it, the greedy bastards realize that the public option will be a powerful player pressing prices down, which will reduce their profit margins slightly - so they fight even that, not giving an inch, just to keep absolute control).

In my conversation with Robert Bonomo (called the Money Game) he explain how USA got that weird health system to begin with. He explains why its tied to jobs and why it was implemented in the first place. And all of it made kinda sense back in the day, when everyone was employed and the markeds were free and the living standard was booming. Whoever few wasnt covered, could get their due from charities, voluntaires, and other marginale options. Everyone also got the health care they were entitled to, to begin with.

But thats generations ago and what kinda worked then doesnt work anymore. You're not the same country anymore. And your system has been coopted by the globalist corporations, who are now coming for the rest of us. This is the selfish reason why we care about you and want you to stop it.
All you're doing is BSing people who are predisposed to hating capitalism. You toss out the term "corporations!" and your target audience reacts emotionally. That's you in a nutshell.

The ACA (Obamacare) did not expand Medicare (as you asserted it did). Medicare is insurance coverage for citizens 65 years of age and over who have paid into the funding pool via payroll taxes when they were working. It has nothing to do with the ACA. The ACA did result in expansion of Medicaid in some states. Medicaid is coverage for people under age 65 who are poor (though it also covers some services for poor people over 65, like long term nursing home stays). Medicaid is a state based program. Each state sets its own eligibility and benefit levels.

Most of the big nationwide corporations that began offering ACA plans in 2014 - the first year of that program - lost money big time. Additionally, there are heavy administrative burdens placed on companies that make the ACA even less attractive. Big companies simply dropped out under those conditions. They're not playing. Now ACA plans are primarily offered by local not-for-profit companies. How that was a big gift to insurance companies you're going to have to explain - along with how it made the system "shittier".

I work for the rare big nationwide company still offering ACA. We also lost money hand over fist on ACA plans the first three years. We stuck with it because of a sense of social responsibility and because we want to partner with the federal govt. Then we broke even. Now we are making a little profit. It was a lot of work and risk to figure it out. I have actually worked exclusively on my employer's ACA offerings for the past 5 years. I am an expert in that regard.

IMO, you don't have a clue what the ACA is and how it works, it's strengths and weaknesses. But go ahead, prove me wrong. Tell us what it is and how it works.
 
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Nah, I'm done with this discussion for now. You can have the last word bro. Some of your detail trolling may even be correct. I'm more concerned with the big picture.


All you're doing is BSing people who are predisposed to hating capitalism. You toss out the term "corporations!" and your target audience reacts emotionally. That's you in a nutshell.

The ACA (Obamacare) did not expand Medicare (as you asserted it did). Medicare is insurance coverage for citizens 65 years of age and over who have paid into the funding pool via payroll taxes when they were working. It has nothing to do with the ACA. The ACA did result in expansion of Medicaid in some states. Medicaid is coverage for people under age 65 who are poor (though it also covers some services for poor people over 65, like long term nursing home stays). Medicaid is a state based program. Each state sets its own eligibility and benefit levels.

Most of the big nationwide corporations that began offering ACA plans in 2014 - the first year of that program - lost money big time. Additionally, there are heavy administrative burdens placed on companies that make the ACA even less attractive. Big companies simply dropped out under those conditions. They're not playing. Now ACA plans are primarily offered by local not-for-profit companies. How that was a big gift to insurance companies you're going to have to explain - along with how it made the system "shittier".

I work for the rare big nationwide company still offering ACA. We also lost money hand over fist on ACA plans the first three years. We stuck with it because of a sense of social responsibility and because we want to partner with the federal govt. Then we broke even. Now we are making a little profit. It was a lot of work and risk to figure it out. I have actually worked exclusively on my employer's ACA offerings for the past 5 years. I am an expert in that regard.

IMO, you don't have a clue what the ACA is and how it works, it's strengths and weaknesses. But go ahead, prove me wrong. Tell us what it is and how it works.
 
Nah, I'm done with this discussion for now. You can have the last word bro. Some of your detail trolling may even be correct. I'm more concerned with the big picture.
That's what I thought you'd say.

Lots of things look simple and easy from "the big picture view". As they say, the devil is in the details.

Even socialism looks great from the big picture. Every time it's played out in the real world, though, it's resulted in massive human tragedy.

Insurance companies are not rigged to keep you sick. Quite the opposite. We want you to be healthy so we don't have pay claims. So we can compete on premium cost against other companies that don't do as good a job as gatekeepers. We deny big Pharma all of the time. They have to prove to us that a drug works before we will cover. Ditto medical procedures. Your paranoid corporate conspiracy theory has no basis in reality. OTOH, your paranoia about government does have some basis in reality. So, I'm with Alex. Why on earth would you want to give the govt more info and more power?

Stick to what you know. I actually agree with your assessment of the covid situation and how the government/power seekers use perceived crises to expand their power.
 
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Lots of things look simple and easy from "the big picture view". As they say, the devil is in the details.
That's the rub, isn't it? The intellectual rigor actually required to wrestle a complicated issue like healthcare to the ground is immense. Similar to many societal issues without obvious, consensus solutions. If they were easy, there would be easy and obvious solutions. But just because some are complex doesn't immediately mean there is an evil cabal behind the disfunction (e.g., "insurance vultures"). It gets quite tiring to watch this thought process.

So what happens in communities like this? Too many allow their predispositions to dominate their thinking. Instead of attempting to discuss and learn; they want to proselytize; they want to lecture. Maybe they've done a surface amount of research or perhaps they haven't researched at all. Doesn't matter: they present their positions as statements as opposed to questions or queries.

Sometimes, when we're lucky, there is someone in the community that actually IS an informed expert on a topic. (In this case its Eric.) What then happens is what we're seeing here. Faced with having to support a position they've stated in absolute terms while being challenged by expertise, they typically try to push back (often from an emotional base) and ultimately exit the conversation.

It serves them no good as they've failed to learn anything. Instead, if really interested, they could ask the person with expertise for more source data/evidence/reading and go through the rigor of actually educating themselves.

Certainly I'm no saint in this regard as I'm guilty of all this myself. The old saying about being unable to learn while your lips are moving seems to apply to fingers typing as well. ;)
 
That's the rub, isn't it? The intellectual rigor actually required to wrestle a complicated issue like healthcare to the ground is immense. Similar to many societal issues without obvious, consensus solutions. If they were easy, there would be easy and obvious solutions. But just because some are complex doesn't immediately mean there is an evil cabal behind the disfunction (e.g., "insurance vultures"). It gets quite tiring to watch this thought process.

So what happens in communities like this? Too many allow their predispositions to dominate their thinking. Instead of attempting to discuss and learn; they want to proselytize; they want to lecture. Maybe they've done a surface amount of research or perhaps they haven't researched at all. Doesn't matter: they present their positions as statements as opposed to questions or queries.

Sometimes, when we're lucky, there is someone in the community that actually IS an informed expert on a topic. (In this case its Eric.) What then happens is what we're seeing here. Faced with having to support a position they've stated in absolute terms while being challenged by expertise, they typically try to push back (often from an emotional base) and ultimately exit the conversation.

It serves them no good as they've failed to learn anything. Instead, if really interested, they could ask the person with expertise for more source data/evidence/reading and go through the rigor of actually educating themselves.

Certainly I'm no saint in this regard as I'm guilty of all this myself. The old saying about being unable to learn while your lips are moving seems to apply to fingers typing as well. ;)
Yep.

Healthcare happens to be one of two or three topics where I have a high level of expertise. Not internet research expertise, but actually work(ed) in the field at a level high enough to have access and to know.

There are many fields about which I have little or no expertise. My learning is at the mercy of whoever is explaining to me how it works, etc. I try to be as honest and straightforward as possible about what I know and can share because, for one, I want others to do the same for me when I am trying to understand a new area of knowledge. It's the golden rule/do unto others. And it grows intellectual integrity I the world.

As Silence says, anecdotes and blindly held strong beliefs are not helpful if we are seeking knowledge. When we don't really know, we should stay quiet and listen, then ask questions.
 
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