Brexit

No, come on, speak your mind :)
It's very easy to make a film that proposes there's an easy answer to Britain's economic and social problems, and if people only put their X in the right place everything will be well. I don't accept there's any historic or factual basis for believing that to be the case. Clearly Brussels is a gravy train and all kinds of former nobody's are on it. It speaks to a European tradition based on the public sector, committees, legislation and centralised control and the stuff Brits quite rightly bristle at. On the other hand I don't believe there's a deep layer of domestic visionaries, and almost none in public service, with the balls to reinvent UK plc. Indeed I think the people pushing for exit from the EC are those who have, or would certainly like the chance to impose all kinds of socially simplistic, baby and bathwater, "common sense" solutions to complex issues.

Many of the people in that movie were responsible for, or supported the decimation of British industry or its selling off cheap to overseas interests, massive and unprecedented public expenditure on transport and utilities before handing it over to the private sector from which their chums benefited, and generally pawning the family silver for short term financial and political gain. So much for vision. I think they're at least as responsible for the decline of superlative domestic design, engineering, architecture and art as the most idle and rabid Trotskyist workforce and given the opportunity they'd do it all again.

On balance I think Britain would be financially better off if we left the EU, but if the people pushing Brexit in that film gets their hands on New England we are deeply in the sh*t.
 
How does one even begin to square the notion of " we are all connected, part of of a greater consciousness, mind-at-large" with something as earthly and arbitrary as national boundaries?

Great question. A monist mentalist metaphysics does not preclude the notion of boundaries. Boundaries are all mentally created and imposed as the fundamental act of creation. Similar boundaries form patterns. Boundaries create differences, variety, patterns, and all structures. Without boundaries there can be no structure. Cell boundaries create microstructure in the body. Organs have larger boundaries. All structures are complex hierarchies of boundaries within boundaries and pattern within pattern.

Individuals develop sane thinking by imposing pattern and boundary onto thought through discipline and learning. Groups of individuals form larger social structures by creating boundaries: taboos, traditions, agreements, contracts, property boundaries, alliances, networks, organizations, institutions, and nations.

Some structures are hierarchical (like government) and others are not (like networks, traditions, personal property, etc)

Boundaries around cities, counties, states, and nations are not bad as they form the basis of societal and cultural structures. The cool thing about traveling is that you can cross boundaries to experience a variety. Without boundaries there can be no variety or organized structures.

Presumably in ages past, some humans with psychopathic tendencies (low empathy, high desire for control) began hurting and stealing from other humans. People grouped together for protection against other predatory groups. These groups required structure to be sustained so traditions and hierarchies formed.

As is the case with all human hierarchies, they are pyramids acting as filters driving the most ambitious most intelligent and most psychopathic types to the top. So tribes and city-states that formed boundaries for protection from the psychopaths invariably found that their own structures eventually came to oppress them in the end while also waging war with other groups in endless effort to attain more power and control.

A quote I heard recently sums this up: "Every movement starts out as an ideal, turns into a business, and ends up as a racket."

So all human hierarchical structures tend to become corrupt over time. For this reason the larger the hierarchical organization grows, the more dangerous it becomes. The U.S. Revolution and constitution was all about creating LIMITED government with many checks and balances to avoid this corrupting process. The idea was: the larger a government's area of jurisdiction, the weaker and more limited its power must be. Small Local governments should retain the most power because the people have greater control over them. When you get up to the federal level there should be very little power. Letting smaller local governments retain more power also creates diversity.

By inverting the power pyramid you create many smaller boundaries which creates diversity and empowers individuals.

This is why the nation state should not become obsolete. If you do away with all boundaries and all smaller governments and have one or a few world governments, those governments will invariably oppress and enslave the people because of the hierarchy/psychopath filter principle. Furthermore by throwing the world's nations and cultures in a blender you lose the interestingness of variety in cultures traditions and governments.

The only way we could possibly enter a libertarian golden age is if we establish that the only legitimate purpose of global governments is to prevent any hierarchical establishment (including corporations) from growing too large and powerful and to defend smaller establishments from violence perpetrated by larger ones. We need to break up large overgrown corporations and overgrown powerful governments (like the EU and even the US federal gov) The larger the government or institution, the fewer its allotted powers can be. So... Go Brexit!
 
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You can sense his fear, can't you? If we leave, then it won't be long before the EU collapses, and he knows it.
That's why a few weeks ago, in Germany, the EU held a very secret joint European military police training course, "To deal with civil unrest and violent demonstrations", as they put it. No press or representatives of political parties allowed. They are not gonna give up their power without resistance, I'm afraid...
 
That's why a few weeks ago, in Germany, the EU held a very secret joint European military police training course, "To deal with civil unrest and violent demonstrations", as they put it. No press or representatives of political parties allowed. They are not gonna give up their power without resistance, I'm afraid...

Any evidence for that?
 
Not really up for a debate on this as Skeptiko doesn't do well when we debate certain issues haha.

For the sake of balance in this thread despite thinking the EU has issues I'll be voting to stay.
 
Thanks for the links!

Are you able to debate anyone that disagrees with you without insulting them though?
Excuse me, Roberta? Where do you see an insult? To gravitate ideologically toward totalitarism is an insult to you? Why? There are people who are socialists, there are communists... there are socialist and communist voters, politicians, all perfectly legal. Evidently, these ideologies are mildly to very totalitarian. So? A lot of people believe in them. A person who considers an unelected, semi-anonymous, clandestine entity (European Commission), who governs our lives illegitimately, completely acceptable, seems to be ok with this totalitarian system. Where is the insult? Why getting so defensive?
BTW, I would never insult you, an least, not intentionally, you are always nice to everybody.
 
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Excuse me, Roberta? Where do you see an insult? To gravitate ideologically toward totalitarism is an insult to you? Why? There are people who are socialists, there are communists... there are socialist and communist voters, politicians, all perfectly legal. Evidently, these ideologies are mildly to very totalitarian. So? A lot of people believe in them. A person who considers an unelected, semi-anonymous, clandestine entity (European Commission), who governs our lives illegitimately, completely acceptable, seems to be ok with this totalitarian system. Where is the insult? Why getting so defensive?
BTW, I would never insult you, an least, not intentionally, you are always nice to everybody.

Saying that people that want to stay in the EU support Totalitarianism and those who don't don't like freedom.

It's okay it's what you do, you insult or make digs at those who dare disagree.

Anyway I have no interest in further debate - cheers!
 
Saying that people that want to stay in the EU support Totalitarianism and those who don't don't like freedom.

It's okay it's what you do, you insult or make digs at those who dare disagree.

Anyway I have no interest in further debate - cheers!

Again, you insist on personal attacks, after I have explained to you nicely that what I had written is was not meant, nor was an insult. In view of that, I retract the statement about you being nice to everybody. You are not.
 
Again, you insist on personal attacks, after I have explained to you nicely that what I had written is was not meant, nor was an insult. In view of that, I retract the statement about you being nice to everybody. You are not.

When was I not nice? If you didn't mean it as an insult then great, maybe work on your debating style as you seem to rub a lot of people the wrong way.
 
A very interesting anonymous UK citizen's latter, circulating on social networks. Worth taking a look at.

If you're undecided on the EU referendum you should read this

On June 23rd, I am expected to make one of the most important decisions in my life which could affect my children and grandchildren in a way I don’t even understand yet. I am an average guy with a family, a house, and a normal lifestyle. I am sort of Joe average. Some people have asked me recently about how I’m voting, mainly because they don’t know themselves and want another view or opinion. I’ve actually been quite interested in the opportunity to vote in the referendum and I’ve done some research and a lot of thinking and I know how I’m going to vote and why.

I am however, concerned about the broadcasting from our elected government. They also know what they want and why but we, the people, need our government to provide us with a balanced view so we, the people, can make our own mind up. For that to happen, we need to understand all the good points, and all the bad points. At the moment, I can understand why some people are gripped by fear that the world will end if we leave the EU.

But will it?

Well, I see 3 main areas, which I thought about. Political, economic and immigration.

Before I go any further, I have already accepted one thing. Any change will result in good things and not so good things. I can’t think of one example, which has changed, which hasn’t created some benefits and burdens.

Let’s get the easy one’s out of the way….

Political. – As a UK citizen, I want my laws determined by the MP’s we elected as a democracy should be. Our Lords are the regulators of the decisions made in the commons and I’m good with that. What I don’t want are laws imposed on me by people who weren’t elected and are trying to find a “One size fits all” solution to many different countries who all have different tolerances, expectations and cultures.

Of all of the imposed laws from the EU, I can live without a law that stipulates that cucumbers must not have a bend in excess of 10 degrees. Some of our politicians quite fancy a career in the EU after their own political career has come to and end in the UK and this is the reason why I think some of them are so keen to stay.

Economic – This is where I see, and accept, that things will be a little worse before they get better. Let’s get one thing clear though. Big business leaders only want one thing. More sales and bigger profits. That’s not wrong, it’s their job, and what shareholders expect. Quite simply, if the companies they’re running don’t make more money every year, they lose their job.

Imagine owning the only supermarket in a town where for the past 10 years, more and more people have come to live there and for the next 10 years, more and more people will arrive. If you owned that supermarket, you’d be rubbing your hands together. Now imagine that someone said that no more houses could be built and some people had to leave. You wouldn’t want that to happen so would disagree. And that’s what the impact will be, less people spending less money is not good for business. You can’t blame them for voting for Remain, but they’re only concerned about themselves.

I’ve also thought about the impact on house prices and rent. In 2000, I remember renting a massive house while I was in between house moves. The rent was £750 per month. Since the bulk addition of several European counties in 2004, rents have consistently increased beyond the rate of inflation. This is easy to understand, more people, not the equal number of more house increases competition for housing and increased rents. Increased rents mean better profits for landlords so people start to buy houses to rent out. Competition for houses increases which increases house prices.

And we all think this is great that the house some of us bought in the 90’s is now worth 3 times what we bought it for, we’re rich! But then I think of my children who can’t afford to buy a house now and I sometimes wonder whether they ever will. I was chatting to a guy at work last week who at the age of 32 had bought his first modest house with a 30 year mortgage. He was so pleased. But that doesn’t sit with me right. I bought my house (3 bed semi) when I was 22 with a 5% deposit and 3.5 times my salary. If the average salary is £22k, £77k doesn’t buy you anything now.

It might be an unpopular thought, but I want house prices to come down so my children can buy a 3 bed semi with a 5% deposit for 3.5 times their salary. And house prices will only come down if there is less competition and more houses built. I’m afraid you can’t achieve that by staying in the EU with an unlimited amount of potential people able to live and work here.

Also, on an economic front, there are too many people telling us that our economy will fall dramatically as we’ll have to negotiate new trade agreements with all the current EU countries. And let’s not forget Obama telling us all that we’ll be at the back of the queue with a trade deal with the USA.

Firstly, we’re a bigger importer than exporter, it’s always been that way. We buy more than we sell so therefore our buying power is more important than our selling power. For sure, some UK goods might be less attractive if import taxes are imposed on them from the EU if we leave but our customer is the world.

We have some of the most prestigious brands in the world. In no particular order, the one’s which come to mind are JCB, Rolls Royce, Burberry, Hotpoint, HSBC, Barclays, Tesco etc etc. I think we can confidently go global. Why do we want the EU to negotiate on our behalf?

And now for immigration. I have no idea why we’re all afraid to even bring up the subject but it does have a big impact and affects us all personally, socially and economically.

Over the past 12 years, since our immigration started to boom, I’ve met a lot of people who have moved to the UK to live and work. In general, I find the people I’ve met to be honest, hard working people with families who intend to make the most of the opportunity of living and working in the UK.

Our service industry is better for it, with many EU migrants choosing to work in many different sectors from coffee shops, to supermarkets. We’ve benefitted from many skills including the main building trades. Many trained nurses and doctors have joined our NHS. No doubt many more have arrived who have filled a skills gap we just don’t have and we, as a society have and are benefitting.

But there’s a problem that comes with this.

As a UK citizen, my personal belief is that the UK is the most attractive country in the EU. If you create a law that says that any citizen can freely choose where in the EU they can live and work, many will naturally choose to move to what they believe will give them the best opportunity to better themselves. Nothing wrong with that, it’s completely normal behaviour.

But if that country does not invest in infrastructure and services at the same rate of population growth two things happen. Things go up in price e.g. houses. And services become overstreched e.g. Doctors, schools, hospitals, roads etc.

The other thing I have an issue with is the type of immigration we have. I am absolutely convinced that we need immigration to thrive and prosper. Not just to ensure we have the right skills but also to make our society richer.

OK, so I can have my car hand washed for £3 just about anywhere now but how many unskilled people do we really need? I don’t think we need any. We have around 2 million of them sitting at home most days looking for a job. The broader problem is that we have created a society that believes not working is a choice and if they can’t be an instant celebrity, they refuse to work for minimum wage. We could solve that problem if we really wanted to.

I also see communities within communities. There are street’s I walk down now that I used to walk down 12 years ago where I only ever hear foreign languages being spoken and European shops selling European goods to European people. That doesn’t feel like an integrated society and I don’t really like it.

I want immigration, but I want to attract people from all over the world who have skills we need and who can add value to the place I live and work. I want those people to choose to come here because they like the values we live by, and want to be part of it.

I also don’t like the laws which are imposed on us that says we have to pay all EU immigrants the same social security benefits as UK citizens when we have no control over where that money is spent. At least the 2 million people sitting at home claiming job seekers allowance are spending that money here, benefitting our own economy but I can’t get my head around how a working father from the EU can claim working families tax credits, family allowance, income support and send as much back to his family in his native country as he chooses. When the minimum wage in the UK is 10 times higher than some eastern European countries and benefits are higher, how can we allow that money to be used in another economy where the cost of living is a fraction of the UK?

Imagine being a call handler in a call centre, a pretty average job on £18k to £20k a year. Now imagine another country you could move to, to do the same job for £200k a year. It’s an opportunity not to be missed. You’d live as cheaply as possible and send every spare penny home.

There are many people who are doing just that in the UAE. But the UAE are a growing country who need and want our skills. They’ve already stated to create laws themselves to ensure emirate people are at the front of the queue for jobs and skills. And there’s no hand outs or public services, everything is private sector and when you have no work, it’s goodbye.

I completely understand why Churchill had his vision for a “United States of Europe” after world war two. When created, the common market was brilliant and has served us well over the decades. But nothing lasts forever and things change.

I don’t remember agreeing to or voting for all the things which have been imposed on me. And I certainly don’t like what’s ahead of me either.

So on balance I’m voting to leave the EU. I accept it will have an economic impact. My house may reduce in value, some people may lose their jobs, the £ may fall in value so holidays might cost a bit more.

But if my children can buy a house and pay off a mortgage within their working life, if their children can go to a school that they choose, if I can get an appointment at the doctors or hospital treatment and not sit in hours of traffic every day then I’ll be happy with that.

And in the future, when the UK is back to being the greatest country in the world that attracts the most talented people from all over the world who create the industries and brands that create job opportunities for the future generations, I can look back and feel that I did the right thing.

Anon.
 
Enrique and Roberta, you are both diminishing the debate on this site by engaging in yah boo discussions. They really dilute serious debate, so please stop!

I am now going to clean up the junk.

David
 
A review of the Brexit movie. While I don't agree with everything this commentator says, he's spot on about the motives of the protagonists (ideological free market libertarians), and his point about Northern Rock is a neat summary of their inalienable right to royally screw up at the tax payers expense.
 
Yep, those of us who dispise the EU neo-soviet dictatorship are power-grabbing capitalists, who want to destroy this wonderful, free association of States that all of us voted for.... This guy, who speaks so softly, with that lisp of a "true intellectual", with a lot of books on the background, told us so, so, it must be true. Besides, he told us that those bastards who are pro-Bexit are..... evil scum that they are: CLIMATE CHANGE skeptics"!!!!!! There truly is no limit to their depravity..... Meanwhile, this bastion of freedoms, that is the EU Commission, is trying to protect us from ourselves by doing this: http://www.breitbart.com/london/201...ople-log-onto-youtube-national-electronic-id/

...and this http://www.breitbart.com/london/201...policy-promise-to-promote-counter-narratives/

but then again.... http://heatst.com/uk/five-presidents-eus-jean-claude-juncker-drunk-in-public-slaps-leaders/
 
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