Conspiracy Theories

It's interesting to me how the term "anti-Semitic" has been adopted as a pejorative used against those who criticize Zionism.

The term "Semite" seems to have arisen less than 300 years ago and refers to the decendents of Shem, son of Noah - whom Noah prophesied would rule over his other two brothers decendents:

“Noah, a man of the soil, proceeded to plant a vineyard. When he drank some of its wine, he became drunk and lay uncovered inside his tent. Ham, the father of Canaan, saw his father naked and told his two brothers outside. But Shem and Japheth took a garment and laid it across their shoulders; then they walked in backward and covered their father’s naked body. Their faces were turned the other way so that they would not see their father naked. When Noah awoke from his wine and found out what his youngest son had done to him, he said, “Cursed be Canaan! The lowest of slaves will he be to his brothers.” He also said, “Praise be to the Lord, the God of Shem! May Canaan be the slave of Shem. May God extend Japheth’s territory; may Japheth live in the tents of Shem, and may Canaan be the slave of Japheth.””
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭9:20-27‬ ‭NIV‬‬

Of course now it's impossible to tell who really are the true descendants of Shem and most scholars consider "Semite" to be an obsolete term. But by identifying as a son of Shem, one also identifies with the promise above.

And who are the Jews? Jew comes from Jude which comes from Judah which was only one of the 12 or 13 tribes of Israel and is associated with other grand promises. And "Hebrew" possibly goes all the way back to the patriarch "Eber", great-grandson of Shem.

While the actual genetic ancestry of the European and Middle Eastern people is so interwoven and complex that no one can really make any solid claims and the "Semitic" people would surely encompass a large portion of the world - not only modern Jews - nevertheless people will choose to identify with certain ancestors in order to be beneficiaries of promises, blessings, and prophecies about those ancestors.

Paul did this for the Gentiles in Christianity. By simply identifying one's self as a child of Abraham by faith, one becomes a beneficiary of the promises to Abraham.

So modern Jewish people are bound together by an assumed identity and relatively recent common genetic roots rather than direct and unique lines of ancestry back to the patriarchs of the promises. Although the term "anti-Semitic" is technically meaningless, using it against critics reinforces part of this assumed identification with the line and promise of Shem.
 
It's a good point I think: It is unclear what purpose they are referring to. Is it the overall purpose of them being there or is just the purpose of them filming? The quote is a translation from Hebrew of a short segment from an interview they gave in an Isreali talkshow after they had been deported from the US. It can be seen in this video at the 1:20 mark (please ignore the rest of the video. It seems to be distastefully anti-semitic for which I apologize, but it was the only video I was able to find):
The precise meaning is of course in danger of being lost in the translation. But they seem to be speaking in general terms about the matter and not referring to their specific act of pointing the camera. Still, it's imposiible to tell for sure, especially without an accurate translation of what was actually said.
As it turns out Corbett just released a video on the 5 dancing Israelis as a part of his series on 911-suspects made for the occasion of the 15 year anniversary of 911. It's a comprehensive look at what is known about the case (and it will from now on serve as my go-to source for that talkshow video clip). My main take-away is that it seems very likely they were Israeli spies:
 
One of the conspirators de-cloaking:


"Mike Morrell, former acting director of the CIA, and long time Deputy Director at CIA is extremely close to Hillary via their mutual ties to Beacon Global Strategies LLC, the regime change firm Morrell went to after leaving the CIA, which is engaged in antagonizing our enemies.

Only a month ago, Morrell stunningly stated openly on television that he wanted to target the leadership of Russia, Iran and Assad in Syria. Morrell explicitly advocated taking out guards, top staff, top generals, etc. etc. of these leaders – not trying to assassinating the head of state, but destroying the trusted people around them… and the killing of Putin’s “favorite” chauffeur appears to be exactly in the plans stated so carefully."

http://www.infowars.com/update-puti...actly-as-former-cia-director-described-on-tv/

Putin's favorite chauffeur mostly likely being assassinated:
 
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Interesting conversation. It's also interesting to see the active bias at play, even in those whom I would assume see themselves as "open-minded". Not that bias can ever really be entirely avoided, but we can work at being aware of our biases, and taking those into account when we come across information or ideas that challenge our currently held beliefs, coupled with the fact that we all are psychologically predisposed to protect our currently held beliefs.

The truth us, "anti-Semite" is wielded as a weapon of shutting down discourse regarding the actions of Isreal. This is fact, plain and simple, and I'm honestly a little astounded that more people don't see this. As Steve stated above, be weary of those things which are deemed "untouchable". We're all supposed to ignore the man behind the curtain, to not believe what our own eyes, ears and other senses are telling us. We have "experts" on all kinds of "dumbed down for the masses" programming (I'm looking at you, Discovery and History Channel) telling us that we cannot trust our own senses, memories or experiences. Trust THEM, cause they're the experts.

So, as they so casually remind us all of how stupid, incapable and helpless we all are, they rewrite history, spew unverifiable "facts", ignore their own mistakes and in effect "teach" us all what to think, what to believe. And the sad part is, we eat it all up. In many ways, we WANT this. We're all too busy and too tired to pay attention, think for ourselves. We are told what to think and what to believe and we accept it so we can go back to our regularly scheduled reality TV. The biggest enemy of freedom and democracy is an apathetic proletariat.

But gee, all that above is a conspiracy theory in and of itself, isn't it! Or, obvious fact, if your paying attention. Whether mainstream or "conspiracy theory", we are all slumbering away for the most part. It requires constant vigilance to avoid the trap. Once you commit to a belief, you lock yourself into a thought bubble, that becomes more and more impermeable the longer you commit to that belief.

Ultimately, reality, conspiracy, all of it comes down to the philosophical question of Truth. Is there an ultimate truth? Is truth relative? If truth is absolute, how do we overcome the bias of time and circumstance? I posit that the best we can ever do is approach some estimation of truth. We can get in the vicinity perhaps, but never know the absolute Truth. I think it's beyond human capability.

The complexity of human behavior and interactions is literally mind boggling. Something as simple as a traffic jam on a freeway can cause billions of effects. We purposefully ignore the complexities, so that we can make some sense of the world around us, otherwise it would be absolutely overwhelming. But the cost is the ability to truly know and understand the absolute truth.

So I try my best not to laugh at ideas, no matter how far fetched. I may dismiss certain ideas or beliefs, but not because I believe they are false, but because I have no reason to believe they are true. The best I can do is assume the likelihood of falsity, but never rule it in or out in any absolute way. And we all work this way. The difference occurs in intensity.

With all that being said, I have to say, in thread after thread, I see Hurmenetar literally cream the living shit out of crap arguments. The dude's smart as hell and knows his shit. What's bizarre about this is how very rarely anyone backs down from their own beliefs, even in the face of contrary evidence. With all the talk of skeptic/believer, open vs. closed mindedness on this here forum, it's interesting to see how often all of us can be so closed minded. Not that I'm above that myself. I often find myself to be biased as shit. I'll admit, I often find myself reciting the same reasons I gave above for my own ignorance and unwillingness to believe differently, I'm too busy and I'm too tired to care.

What worries me the most is that I know I'm not alone. I know that far too many of my fellow Americans are asleep at the wheel and have been for a long time. The worst part is, I don't think anyone wants to change that either.

What I find most interesting concerning the term "Conspiracy Theorist", is how effective the one term is at absolutely paralyzingly the ability for societies to really address important issues, whether they be contemporary or historical. The term "Conspiracy Theory" causes immediate fear and revulsion. No one wants to be called a Conspiracy Theorist! Gawd no! I'm not thaaaat stupid! Aaaaaaannnd voila! Inconvenient truths avoided. Discourse closed until further notice. Thinking has been suspended.

This should make us all pause. Every time I hear the term used regarding an issue, it immediately makes me think there's something someone doesn't want the public to know. But hilariously, I would be called a conspiracy theorist for thinking that! The term itself can lead to endless circular arguments, perhaps its most effective affect.

It astounds me how truly effective this one little brain child from the CIA has actually been.
 

To summarize for those who don't wish to click:

One idiot millennial BBC journalist isn't sophisticated enough to understand conspiracy theories or why their heyday has dawned, so he consults four "experts" to provide four justifications for dismissing them outright without investigation: secrecy, scale, unofficial source, and patterns. If these are involved, you may ignore. The "experts" are: a poly sci prof, two journalists, and of course, Shermer. A couple of non-controversial historical conspiracies are noted along with a number of strawman representations of controversial ones. The best piece of advice provided in the article: if the source is The Onion, it's probably not real.
 
To summarize for those who don't wish to click:

One idiot millennial BBC journalist isn't sophisticated enough to understand conspiracy theories or why their heyday has dawned, so he consults four "experts" to provide four justifications for dismissing them outright without investigation: secrecy, scale, unofficial source, and patterns. If these are involved, you may ignore. The "experts" are: a poly sci prof, two journalists, and of course, Shermer. A couple of non-controversial historical conspiracies are noted along with a number of strawman representations of controversial ones. The best piece of advice provided in the article: if the source is The Onion, it's probably not real.

The article got at least one thing right (almost):
"People acting in secrecy is a necessary feature of a conspiracy theory, as it cannot be disproved."

Or as it should read:
"People acting in secrecy is a necessary feature of a conspiracy."

Cause, you know, as a general rule, nothing happens in secret and all the worlds an open book.

Or not.
 
The truth us, "anti-Semite" is wielded as a weapon of shutting down discourse regarding the actions of Isreal. This is fact, plain and simple, and I'm honestly a little astounded that more people don't see this.

And this:

https://memoryholeblog.com/2016/09/15/uc-berkeley-cancels-palestine-class-midway-through-term/

Imagine a university being pressured to end a class that opened debate on any other country's decisions (in the U.S) . . . It seems to me we're much more capable of (infinitely) criticizing more about the U.S. itself than we are of that country. A bit strange if you (realize the extent of this and) pause to consider it . . .
 
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Imagine a university being pressured to end a class that opened debate on any other country's decisions (in the U.S) . . . It seems to me we're much more capable of (infinitely) criticizing more about the U.S. itself than we are of that country. A bit strange if you (realize the extent of this and) pause to consider it . . .

There are the usual handful of responders on this subject. Are people not reading the thread? Are they not bothered? Are they pro Israel ? I find these questions really fascinating.

It's probably that they see the whole thing as too emotive to get involved. I think that's exactly how the subject has become, so (conveniently?) stifling debate about it.
 
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There are the usual handful of responders on this subject. Are people not reading the thread? Are they not bothered? Are they pro Israel ? I find these questions really fascinating.

It's probably that they see the whole thing as too emotive to get involved. I think that's exactly how the subject has become, so (conveniently?) stifling debate about it.
A couple years ago I simply didn't realize the scope and the extremity of the situation and so I would've kind of considered it a non-subject . . . Just another power struggle with obligatory bad stuff that goes along with that. I assume most are like I used to be. Sure, I realized Israel was the (probably very) immoral party in the Palestinian conflict, but I didn't exactly realize how much more there was to it than that . . . and really, to make it even less accessible is that to really see the extent of it, one must consider deep conspiracy as well.
 
There are the usual handful of responders on this subject. Are people not reading the thread? Are they not bothered? Are they pro Israel ? I find these questions really fascinating.

It's probably that they see the whole thing as too emotive to get involved. I think that's exactly how the subject has become, so (conveniently?) stifling debate about it.

From my point of view I'll relate what happened to me in a discussion around a pub table not long ago. I was talking to some people who were very active in a campaign to highlight Israeli misdeeds against the Palestinians and beyond. I thought they were making good arguments, supported by apparently solid evidence. Another person at the table started to take the anti-Israeli argument into a new dimension which, I have no doubt, crossed the line (and left it miles behind) into anti-semitism territory. He didn't talk about Israelis, he spat out the word Jews with venom. He went on to rant about the global Jewish conspiracy stretching back hundreds of years.

The people at the pub table who made the original points in support of the mistreated Palestinians were left dumfounded and embarrassed. After that evening I started getting emails and Facebook posts from this guy, linking to holocaust denial sites and other sites dripping with poisonous rhetoric and dubious history. I had to unfriend him from Facebook and block his emails.

So my point is that, if the debate is stifled (and I mean generally, not specifically on this forum), it may be because those who might be concerned fear they might also be drawn into, and identified with, that culture of hatred which is all too accessible out there.
 
So my point is that, if the debate is stifled (and I mean generally, not specifically on this forum), it may be because those who might be concerned fear they might also be drawn into, and identified with, that culture of hatred which is all too accessible out there

Thanks for participating.

I can certainly see exactly what you're saying. At the moment in the UK it seems like those who are part of the culture of hatred are becoming emboldened by events.

Ideally those around the table that night should have equally forcefully put him in his place, denouncing his views. But I know this is easier said than done in reality. Unfortunately people like him (on both sides) are a major problem. People seem unable to control their emotions where Israel is concerned, I guess the feelings run deep. More than likely not so deep where the individual you met was concerned, there are plenty people who are just troubled individuals and subjects like this give them a reason to show their aggression.
 
More than likely not so deep where the individual you met was concerned, there are plenty people who are just troubled individuals and subjects like this give them a reason to show their aggression.

The odd thing is that, before that night, the guy appeared to all who have met him to be gentle, unassuming, open and friendly. He talked of his spiritual journey, meditations and experiments with OBEs and I'm sure that everyone in our group had a soft spot for him. Nobody would have suspected the rabid pit-bull lurking within.
 
He didn't talk about Israelis, he spat out the word Jews with venom. He went on to rant about the global Jewish conspiracy stretching back hundreds of years.
If the Jewish conspiracy was so powerful, how come most of the six million who perished were peasants or at least, working class. Jews who could afford to get out of Europe in the 1930s mostly did so. If Jews ran the banks, the people who died in Belsen and Auschwitz weren't seeing any of the cash. The SS weren't correcting a social injustice and holding the perpetrators to account, they were attempting to annihilate a religious group and its beliefs from the face of the earth. One does not need to be Zionist or a Jew to understand the mark that has left on Jewish consciousness. It doesn't excuse Israeli aggression, or the way colonial powers carved up the middle east, but it does illustrate why a people might adopt a martial stance in protecting itself from people who regarded them as vermin in living memory.
 
If the Jewish conspiracy was so powerful, how come most of the six million who perished were peasants or at least, working class.

I do hope you are not associating me with his remarks - that is exactly the point I was making about not wanting to be drawn in lest one becomes identified with the rhetoric.

Of course, the man in question would (and did) denounce the six million figure as an invention. Again, I need to stress that this is not my view.
 
I do hope you are not associating me with his remarks - that is exactly the point I was making about not wanting to be drawn in lest one becomes identified with the rhetoric.

Of course, the man in question would (and did) denounce the six million figure as an invention. Again, I need to stress that this is not my view.
Sorry Kamarling, I was reinforcing your take on this bigot's view, my phasing could have been better. The point is this: if there is a high level conspiracy among world banking and finance, it has done nothing for ordinary Jews who in the main are working people like everyone else. Before the war that was even more the case, the majority were peasants or basic trades. So even if there is a conspiracy, should we be calling it a Jewish conspiracy and if so, is US and Western capitalism a Christian conspiracy?

Are Jewish people numerically over-represented in law, banking and the media? Certainly, but so what? One group is going to outnumber the rest unless you have positive vetting and discrimination. Jehovah's Witnesses outnumber the rest in commercial cleaning contracts, and Catholics in construction, historically at least. If there is a Jewish conspiracy to aid Jews as a whole, it has failed miserably.
 
So even if there is a conspiracy, should we be calling it a Jewish conspiracy

Is it a conspiracy that we're talking about? There may be conspiracies involved, like a smaller subset, but I wouldn't call it a conspiracy, more like a group of people with a common purpose. And I'm quite certain that the word Zionist has to be included in whatever the people involved call themselves. I'm also quite certain there will be many different opinions of what this word means, but I'm sure it means something specific to those who are part of the group. Being Jewish doesn't automatically make you part of the group, just as being an English Christian doesn't make you part of the Establishment here.But just as the establishment here in the UK seem to protect each other at the expense of outsiders, this Zionist group seem to work for the benefit of itself at the expense of anyone who isn't part of it.

I feel sure that both the establishment and this Zionist group have their own agendas. But taking the Zionist group, I have to ask 'is this agenda good for me or mankind in general'? , good for the Middle East ?good for world peace? How far would it go to achieve any aims it may have? There are obviously tons of similar groups of people working towards their own ends, but this one is different as well as dangerous. I sense it is!

America might be dangerous too, but it does what it does largely for things we can understand,even if we don't agree with them. Power, greed , oil etc. But when it comes down to hatred such as that displayed by Israel towards the Palestinians I personally can't truly understand it, I never will. Don't tell me that it's in self defence, or it's because of their own deep seated trauma and because of that we shouldn't stand up and call it out for what it truly is. Soldiers shooting children in cold blood or targeting boys playing football on the beach or just one individual being held down surrounded by a bunch of soldiers while one of them calmly shatter his shoulder blades with a rock? This last one still brings me to tears when I think about it. Just imagine the outcry if such atrocities had been perpetrated against Jews. That is what makes it so incredible. They are the very people who ought to know how wrong this is!

I know there are atrocities carried out all over the world that can be reflected back at me. But none of them have the active support of our government and the media, looked on as our buddies. Of course I'm not alone in condemning such acts and behaviour, Netanyahu and his pals are held in contempt by many for their actions. I join those who condemn such actions and although the Jewish people have suffered greatly over long periods, should that give them a licence to freely do the same to others?
 
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