Coronavirus Pandemic

They probably didn't include that as prominently because in this day and age of shoddy journalism, created by themselves (media), they've only gone and incentivised juicy headlines in some zero sum game, in a race to the bottom.
People who complain about "mainstream media" almost always turn around and start quoting sources that are far more less reliable, and a lot more motivated to straight out lie. They do not believe what serious news outlets say, but don't hesitate for a moment to trust the most insane conspiracy theories. Any anonymous blogger, crazy youtuber, Q-anonist nonsense is seen as gospel, but a serious organization that has at least some accountability is not believed? how do you explain that?

Still, I can't help but wonder if we are beginning to see that this incredible social pressure to vaccinate everyone and their dog is maybe not such a good idea, especially in light of Biden's mandate, which I personally feel is a step too far. And I think many others who are vaccinated and who have gone along with the programme so to speak, feel the same way too. It's basically what the 'conspiracy theorists' predicted would happen eventually, and were given lots of stick for it.
As i said to Hurm, more than 90% of the people who get seriously ill, get hospitalized, or lose their live, are not vaccinated.
Knowing that, is it not the responsibility of every president to do everything in his power to vaccinate as much people as possible?

It's quite a thing for a democratic and free western country to mandate something on the scale such as this. Even if you agree with the mandate, I think it basically sets a precedent for other things in the future that may not be so in ones favour. And even as a British citizen, I know that what happens in the USA, tends to land on our shores eventually too.
I do not subscribe to the assumption that western governments even want to do the work of controlling every aspect of life.
The politicians i do not trust, are exactly the ones that are protesting the most, they are mostly right wing , fascist sympathizers.
 
People who complain about "mainstream media" almost always turn around and start quoting sources that are far more less reliable, and a lot more motivated to straight out lie. They do not believe what serious news outlets say, but don't hesitate for a moment to trust the most insane conspiracy theories. Any anonymous blogger, crazy youtuber, Q-anonist nonsense is seen as gospel, but a serious organization that has at least some accountability is not believed? how do you explain that?

The thing is, yes many of these alternative sources are complete crap, but the media hasn't exactly covered itself in glory either. How many times has it been caught outright lying and faking stuff to get clicks? Clickbait headlines etc.

For me they can be as bad as each other. Just two sides of the same coin.


As i said to Hurm, more than 90% of the people who get seriously ill, get hospitalized, or lose their live, are not vaccinated.
Knowing that, is it not the responsibility of every president to do everything in his power to vaccinate as much people as possible?

Yes, I know, the vaccines are highly effective in preventing death and severe illness to COVID-19. We've seen that in the data and it's part of why I changed my mind on the vaccines. I couldn't deny it any longer and was forced to look at reality.

However, I just can't go as far as to mandate stuff. I know what you are saying with the responsibility thing, but I just don't feel the government has a right to do that in them manner that it has done.

I do not subscribe to the assumption that western governments even want to do the work of controlling every aspect of life.

Australia has been doing a pretty good job of that though. They have pretty crazy pandemic controls for a so called western free democracy, that I think are out of proportion.

I suppose we'll have to see what comes of the vaccine passports then really. If it really is true that they will have an end date, then great, that's half the battle. I just suspect that we will have 'mission creep' with them over time.
 
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The thing is, yes many of these alternative sources are complete crap, but the media hasn't exactly covered itself in glory either. How many times has it been caught outright lying and faking stuff to get clicks? Clickbait headlines etc.

For me they can be as bad as each other. Just two sides of the same coin.
Off course everything exists on a sliding scale, but i still believe that there are sources more reliable than others.
They all have a bias to some degree, but organizations with some editorial standards are to be preferred over silly Facebook posts and twitter rants.

Yes, I know, the vaccines are highly effective in preventing death and severe illness to COVID-19. We've seen that in the data and it's part of why I changed my mind on the vaccines. I couldn't deny it any longer and was forced to look at reality.
Yes, i can only express my respect for that.

However, I just can't go as far as to mandate stuff. I know what you are saying with the responsibility thing, but I just don't feel the government has a right to do that in them manner that it has done.
Well, i guess here we have to agree to disagree.

Australia has been doing a pretty good job of that though. They have pretty crazy pandemic controls for a so called western free democracy, that I think are out of proportion.
They have done a pretty god job, you are right on that:

biweekly-covid-deaths-per-million-people.png



I suppose we'll have to see what comes of the vaccine passports then really. If it really is true that they will have an end date, then great, that's half the battle. I just suspect that we will have 'mission creep' with them over time.
Let's wait and see.
 
Let's wait and see.

I don't get this. We've been living with vaccine mandates, and having to present vaccine records, for decades now. Any place I've gone to school, from K-12 to college, has had vaccine requirements where I (or my parents, actually) have to present my vaccine records to get in. And in at least some places there are vaccine mandates for health care workers or residents of healthcare facilities. I've had to get vaccines for travel, and present proof that I received the vaccine. I've had a vaccine card since I was born. I don't keep it in my wallet, but I keep it in the same place I keep my passport. Why is everybody acting like this is a new thing?
 
Why is everybody acting like this is a new thing?

Because it actually is.

You didn't have to show a vaccine pass to get into a sports stadium before or similar. Domestic use has never been a thing. Internationally, yeah. That's not the same thing though.
 
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I don't get this. We've been living with vaccine mandates, and having to present vaccine records, for decades now. Any place I've gone to school, from K-12 to college, has had vaccine requirements where I (or my parents, actually) have to present my vaccine records to get in. And in at least some places there are vaccine mandates for health care workers or residents of healthcare facilities. I've had to get vaccines for travel, and present proof that I received the vaccine. I've had a vaccine card since I was born. I don't keep it in my wallet, but I keep it in the same place I keep my passport. Why is everybody acting like this is a new thing?
Mostly the same thing in my country, guess that is why I don't understand either.
 
Still waiting for any evidence on that, meanwhile, some data:
See the Data on Breakthrough Covid Hospitalizations and Deaths by State

The CDC counts people as unvaccinated if death occurs within 14 days of jab, so that pads the numbers.

Recent data from the UK (which I still don't trust - obviously) has it closer to 5x rather than 10x or 11x as is being claimed here.
https://assets.publishing.service.g...465/Vaccine_surveillance_report_-_week_36.pdf

Recent data from Israel showed 59% of hospitalizations were among vaccinated and the country itself is about 80% vaccinated, so there is some effect there, but waning.

And these of course are official sources which I trust about as much as I trust an election with Diebold voting machines and mail in ballots. So many ways to lie with statistics.

One interesting thing to note from the UK data is vaccinated people in many age ranges were actually more likely to be COVID positive. This goes along with some other studies that showed about 250x higher virus loads in the sinuses of vaccinated individuals vs. unvaxxed.

If the vaccine does nothing to stop the spread there is NO CASE for vax mandates.
 
Because it actually is.

You didn't have to show a vaccine pass to get into a sports stadium before or similar. Domestic use has never been a thing. Internationally, yeah. That's not the same thing though.

We're in the middle of a pandemic. And a sports stadium is way more elective than school. It's hardly much of a step.

What do you mean by domestic? I'm in the US.
 
One interesting thing to note from the UK data is vaccinated people in many age ranges were actually more likely to be COVID positive.

The UK data didn't show that. It showed that among COVID positive people, in some age ranges, there were more people who had been vaccinated. But that doesn't mean vaccinated people were more likely to be COVID positive. It means the number of vaccinated people was much larger than the number of unvaccinated people in that age group. And/or that the risk of exposure was higher among vaccinated people (vaccinated people out and about way more than unvaccinated, dropping mask use, etc.).
 
The UK data didn't show that. It showed that among COVID positive people, in some age ranges, there were more people who had been vaccinated. But that doesn't mean vaccinated people were more likely to be COVID positive. It means the number of vaccinated people was much larger than the number of unvaccinated people in that age group. And/or that the risk of exposure was higher among vaccinated people (vaccinated people out and about way more than unvaccinated, dropping mask use, etc.).

Good point. I didn't state that correctly. You are not more likely to be COVID positive... just not any less likely. The UK is 65.7% fully vaccinated, so if the vaccine was not effective at preventing a positive test, you'd expect the vaccination rate to be about the same in COVID positives.

So if the vaccine won't prevent the spread of it... what is the justification for the mandates?
 
I don't get this. We've been living with vaccine mandates, and having to present vaccine records, for decades now. Any place I've gone to school, from K-12 to college, has had vaccine requirements where I (or my parents, actually) have to present my vaccine records to get in. And in at least some places there are vaccine mandates for health care workers or residents of healthcare facilities. I've had to get vaccines for travel, and present proof that I received the vaccine. I've had a vaccine card since I was born. I don't keep it in my wallet, but I keep it in the same place I keep my passport. Why is everybody acting like this is a new thing?

This is a whole new level. They want to make it so that you cannot participate in society or even do things like go to the grocery store or have a job without getting the jab... and it won't be a one time thing... twice a year you must report to get your shots and get your passport updated or you are completely cut off from society, employment, the banking system, everything. This is total tyranny.

In the past you wouldn't have to have shots to go to school if you fill out an exemption form, and previously the EEOC prevented employers from discriminating against employees who chose not to get vaccinated.

Regarding healthcare workers... my wife used to work in the IT department at a hospital and during the last few years of her employment they grew increasingly insistent that she get the flu vaccine. Hospitals can get federal grant money and get a higher rank on health grade rating sites if they can show that a high percentage of their staff got the flu vaccine. The last couple of years she worked there they started making all hospital employees who refused the flu shot wear a mask the entire time they were at work including her even though she was not in a patient area. This was clearly a tactic to goad people into taking the flu shot.

As for foreign travel, I've traveled to Canada, Mexico, UK, France, Italy, and Switzerland. Never once was I asked about vaccination status.
 
Good point. I didn't state that correctly. You are not more likely to be COVID positive... just not any less likely.

Also not correct. You don't have enough information to make that statement. "How likely are you to be in the cases reported group if you are vaccinated/unvaccinated" are conditional probabilities (think Bayes Theorem) and you don't know all of the probabilities used to make the calculations. RCT data gets around those limitations.

The hospitalization and death data is more useful - compare the rate per 100,000 among the unvaccinated vs. vaccinated. If you really think that the case rate is high among the vaccinated, then the substantial drop in hospitalizations and death is even more profound and dramatic.

So if the vaccine won't prevent the spread of it... what is the justification for the mandates?

Even if the vaccine didn't prevent the spread (and you can't conclude it doesn't with that information) the huge drop in hospitalizations and death is more than enough justification.
 
This is a whole new level. They want to make it so that you cannot participate in society or even do things like go to the grocery store or have a job without getting the jab... and it won't be a one time thing... twice a year you must report to get your shots and get your passport updated or you are completely cut off from society, employment, the banking system, everything. This is total tyranny.

That's not what they're doing here. About 20 million people (most of who are already vaccinated) have no opt-out, except to get a different job. Everyone else can opt out if they want. And nobody is cut off from society, employment, banking, etc. Maybe you can't go into every building or have any job you want, but it was already like that before the pandemic. I know it differs across the country, but stricter restrictions are pretty limited. I mean, I have way more trouble across the country if I want to do all that stuff without a shirt, than if I'm not vaccinated.

Regarding healthcare workers... my wife used to work in the IT department at a hospital and during the last few years of her employment they grew increasingly insistent that she get the flu vaccine. Hospitals can get federal grant money and get a higher rank on health grade rating sites if they can show that a high percentage of their staff got the flu vaccine. The last couple of years she worked there they started making all hospital employees who refused the flu shot wear a mask the entire time they were at work including her even though she was not in a patient area. This was clearly a tactic to goad people into taking the flu shot.

She still had a job and she didn't get the shot. I don't see what the problem is. If standing up for what you believe wasn't uncomfortable sometimes, then it wouldn't be a thing.

As for foreign travel, I've traveled to Canada, Mexico, UK, France, Italy, and Switzerland. Never once was I asked about vaccination status.

Depends on where you travel.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Certificate_of_Vaccination_or_Prophylaxis
 
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