David Mathisen, Myths and Roman Trauma |503|

#21
I'm coming out swinging, metaphorically.

I challenge anyone to imagine sitting in present time 2021 and composing an original fictional story, setting Earth, about a character living in the year 2021... lets say you write 200 pages...
Only catch is, you must compose this entire story without a single mention of: TV, Radio, Electricity, Computers, Internet, Social Media, or Telephones...

Argument: It would be equally difficult for someone alive in the year 100AD to exclude the prevailing mythical astrology from any writing. Especially when ascribing for the hero archetype.

Chicken or the Egg?

Disclaimer: Yes, I'm only 1/2 way through episode.., but I will surely listen to this episode multiple times like I do most new episodes. And I will happily come back and post to recant my jab if/when I hear this issue addressed within the 2nd half.
After listening to the episode a second time, I have another analogy to help pose an argument.

Guns.

How many independent stories over time would you guess were made up about a magnificent man so fast/dexterous/agile that he could catch a bullet with his bare hands?
Before internet, or even radio, imagine these stories popping up all around the world wherever guns are sold, there's that one guy who got a little fame, and sure enough one of his legendary traits was his ability to catch a bullet. I mean, people would gather in crowds just to listen to the guy who saw it happen. I'm going to imagine that since the invention of guns, there's probably been a hundred thousand tales of the guys who could catch a bullet, and every one from a first hand witness...

Then one day, man invented this thing called a camera phone, and suddenly humans lost the ability to catch bullets!

So what does this have to do with the episode?

David is arguing that because all the stories in the bible are based on pre-existing star myths, that must mean the bible isn't really even about all the famous characters and their experiences of running into the divine. Rather the characters were devised only as rendition of star stories that already existed??

I say that the star myths were used as epoxy to encapsulate or cement the foundation of characters and their divine experiences.

The same way nobody actually ever caught a bullet, nobody ever fit every Earth animal on a single boat. Does that mean Noah didn't have a monumental divine experience?

Perhaps, the only way these stories ever got passed down was to attach them to a timeless foundation. Perhaps at the time this was understood by everyone as the only way possible to save a story for ever.
 
#22
I agree. I've always pushed David on this point... and have sometimes pissed him off. I've always had a "chalk it up to ET and move on" attitude, but I'm kind of coming around to the other part of his argument. the egg argument :) i.e. what are the implications of a ancient, global system of knowledge transmitted through a system of myths based on star constellations? what do the myths tell us about those who created them?
I need to listen to this episode first, but I am going to lay an egg before the chicken kind of thought here regarding constellations. Twenty some odd years ago, I tried magic mushrooms. I was living in a house of rented rooms, a true bachelor pad, filled with young cops and pot smokers. Cops drink, and well, pot smokers smoke pot. Nevertheless, we all converged for tournaments on Mario Kart and Golden Eye on the Nintendo 64, the two iconic games that set the foundation for a revolution in the video game world that would last far beyond 20 years.

One night, an old friend from high school called me up, and said he could get us some magic mushrooms. I was all in, as I had never tried them before and was ready for something different than the careless happiness provided by Jack and Coke, or the enlightened, sensitive paranoia summoned by Marijuana. Why not have a few mushrooms and play Mario Kart?

I remember eating them with chocolate and a bit of orange juice because we were told that would enhance the effects. First of all, eating mushrooms with chocolate is like putting Hershey's on your pizza. That tastes like shit! Not to mention washing that down with a bit of Sunny Delight makes that taste even worse! If I could relive the experience, I would have eaten the mushrooms with a bit of goat cheese, focaccia bread, and a side of vinegar and olive oil as dressing. If vitamin C does help enhance the effects, I would recommend garnishing with sliced bell pepper, or for those daring individuals, even habanero.

There we were, deeply engaged in Mario Kart, and I was leaving my friend in the dust. After all, I competed against pot smokers and drunk cops 24/7, he had not a chance. An hour or so passes, and I tell my friend, "Hey man, this mushroom thing is bullshit, I don't feel anything at all."

We continue playing, and suddenly, literally, out of nowhere, there is a creature standing to the left of my friend watching Mario Kart on the large, rear projection TV that we used to have in the 90's. It was about four feet tall, had a protuberant belly, was green, had a very big mouth whose teeth protruded over its lips (like an alligator), and was wearing shorts, but no shirt. As soon as I recognized it, I jumped up, yelling to my friend, "OH MY GOD WHAT THE FUCK IS THAT SHIT!"

I wish I hadn't expressed my surprise so vehemently, because it disappeared immediately. My friend thought it would be a good idea to go outside for a cigarette, as he saw nothing and perhaps wanted to calm my nerves. Everything seemed perfectly normal again until we reached the backyard. I looked up and saw the night sky as I have never seen it before. Essentially, I realized that all things that man has ever invented, or become over time, was copied from the stars. I saw how all the constellations were more than just dots connected on a piece of paper for astrologists to predict your love life. I saw how the primitive man saw the stars and created technology based upon what they were reading from them. I asked myself, "How could I have never seen this before?"

Next, I looked down to the earth again, and saw legions of slaughtered, winged beings. They were hanging from the trees, crucified between tiki torches, just obliterated everywhere. I felt a connection to who and what they were. I felt a deep sense of some kind of spiritual war that was waged, and is being waged to this day. Also, a deep understanding of what we call dark might not necessarily be evil. Furthermore, what we call light might not necessarily be good.

Regardless, awesome thread, guys, look forward to listening to this episode. All of you are incredibly intelligent people. What really did come first, sauerkraut or great bratwurst?
 
#23
Nargh. I feel like Alex is spinning off lately stuck on unproven beliefs about Josephus.
For some reason, my brothers in America seem stuck on the whole World Order thing despite the following facts.
1. There has been ZERO new legislation from any nation that I know of that's creating a one-world government pre or POST Covid.
2. Most people just want to get back to normal after the pandemic. Most governments (the US is the worst) have been providing money to their people to KEEP their businesses afloat and people from falling into abject poverty. IF there was this push, then they wouldn't be helping out to keep the old system running.
3. There's ZERO evidence that Josephus was actually a roman plant or that Christianity was a PSI-OP. I'm not a Christian, and while the idea is compelling, it's still just abject guesswork.
How do I know this?
Because we keep making the same mistakes.
Mistake #1: Hanlon's Razor is in play here. Alex keeps assuming some kind of cabal of some sort that has been purposefully doing all this stuff. The REAL problem are the cracks in capitalism that allow the abuse of the system. But instead of looking at the possibility of creating better safeguards through creating a social democracy, the problem COULDNT be capitalism could it? Ask the Icelanders what they did when the last big crash happened. They jailed the bankers who took the country into ruin. How many bankers did America OR Canada for that matter jail? None.
The problem isn't some deep down evil cabal who wants to rule the world from their front porch. The problems are that capitalism needs to be properly regulated.
Mistake #2. Related to the above mistake. Nobody at the top WANTS a One-World Government. They already control people through the money they are making because of the broken system. Do you think that Bezos wants people to no longer work and depend on a government? OF COURSE NOT. He makes more money employing people cheaply and being able to hook people on a market economy that's specifically an economy that has people look to material items to solve their issues. The wealthy WANT indentured servants. They don't want starving masses they have to feed, clothe, and provide healthcare for. The more you can convince people that government is incompetent, evil, etc... the more you can foist the needs that a government used to have upon corporate capitalist forces. The Nazis knew this. This is why they ran their Fascism through corporate relationships. They made sure their populace worked at a company and could not change jobs. They paid them very little, and scraped up the rest. This is the essence of the right-wing Fascist state.
Mistake #3. Josephus wasn't bound by our understandings of historical accuracy. Most ancient scholars wrote to tell a story. They didn't write NOR DID ANYONE BELIEVE they wrote specific history. We see this all the way up through the middle ages. Geoffrey of Monmouth mixed history with storytelling to add elements in that didn't exist. Never let the facts get in the way of a good story. That was the nature of "historians" until the modern age. And even then...
Mistake #4. Constantine was running a failing society. His choices to make Roman into a Christian empire had nothing to do with controlling people and everything to do with controlling the costs. Before it became a Christian nation, Rome held all gods and goddesses sacrosanct. This means EVERY DAY OF THE WEEK there were holy days. This shut down industry. Shut up commerce. Made it really hard to actually DO anything. Constantine killing his family members had nothing to do about "being a good Christian" and everything to do with being of the age and the world he was in. "Good Christians" raped and pillaged for centuries and even to this modern day. Constantine was a Christian out of economic necessity and nothing else. They had to create a single religion to try to provide clarity to the fading Roman Empire, and there were two possibilities. Mithras who was really popular amongst his soldiers, and this Nazarene named Jesus who the rank and file poor folk loved. He was political to choose Jesus because it made him more popular with the poor and helped stem any uprisings. Strictly political, nothing to do with creating some grand psi-op at the time, as far as any evidence we can find.

I fear that Alex, as brilliant and as clever as you are my friend, you've got your hands on a hammer, and you're going to treat every problem like a nail. Step back a bit and see there are very real holes in your conclusions. You may be totally right. But there's no way we're there yet.
It's too bad Tom Harpur passed away a couple years back. He would have been the best person for Alex to talk to.
http://www.tomharpur.com/biography/
If we assume that Evil defined as something that 'just is' , is more cunning and intelligent then good, and that evil is the actually guilding mankind's history then we
WILL find these threads that run through history that have lead us to this point.
Evil as a extra dimensional source, that which whisper in our ear.
This is to say that eventually the good does not prevail. In the end the good guy dies miserable with a mouth full of mud. And if what I say is offensive, and I say it IS - why?
If the long arch of history is not bent to anything in particular , certainly not justice.

Thanks for the valuable show Alex! Liking the long format.
 
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#24
If we assume that Evil defined as something that 'just is' , is more cunning and intelligent then good, and that evil is the actually guilding mankind's history then we
WILL find these threads that run through history that have lead us to this point.
Evil as a extra dimensional source, that which whisper in our ear.
This is to say that eventually the good does not prevail. In the end the good guy dies miserable with a mouth full of mud. And if what I say is offensive, and I say it IS - why?
If the long arch of history is not bent to anything in particular , certainly not justice.

Thanks for the valuable show Alex! Liking the long format.
I don't think the question of "good and evil" is complicated. Also, I don't think people get "Beyond Good and Evil," even if they are Nietzsche, who ended up as a slobbering, insane idiot before his eventual death. Evil is quite simple. If your mindset is to not just destroy life, but to deliberately make others suffer, and revel in their suffering, this is what evil is. This isn't mitigated to only human beings. This pertains to all life forms. Also, the so called, self proclaimed "good" are usually the most evil of all people. These type of assholes who, albeit by popular religious nonsense or political "woke" bullshit, become the sadists that enforce evil.

Certainly, evil is a very real thing to all of us, and we are all capable of it if we are honest with ourselves. We don't have to read a bible, go to church, or have a shaman shove drugs up our ass to find out that we are capable of evil. Also, I think that being good is a thing better left unsaid. Maybe that is how God works in mysterious ways.
 
#25
I need to listen to this episode first, but I am going to lay an egg before the chicken kind of thought here regarding constellations. Twenty some odd years ago, I tried magic mushrooms. I was living in a house of rented rooms, a true bachelor pad, filled with young cops and pot smokers. Cops drink, and well, pot smokers smoke pot. Nevertheless, we all converged for tournaments on Mario Kart and Golden Eye on the Nintendo 64, the two iconic games that set the foundation for a revolution in the video game world that would last far beyond 20 years.

One night, an old friend from high school called me up, and said he could get us some magic mushrooms. I was all in, as I had never tried them before and was ready for something different than the careless happiness provided by Jack and Coke, or the enlightened, sensitive paranoia summoned by Marijuana. Why not have a few mushrooms and play Mario Kart?

I remember eating them with chocolate and a bit of orange juice because we were told that would enhance the effects. First of all, eating mushrooms with chocolate is like putting Hershey's on your pizza. That tastes like shit! Not to mention washing that down with a bit of Sunny Delight makes that taste even worse! If I could relive the experience, I would have eaten the mushrooms with a bit of goat cheese, focaccia bread, and a side of vinegar and olive oil as dressing. If vitamin C does help enhance the effects, I would recommend garnishing with sliced bell pepper, or for those daring individuals, even habanero.

There we were, deeply engaged in Mario Kart, and I was leaving my friend in the dust. After all, I competed against pot smokers and drunk cops 24/7, he had not a chance. An hour or so passes, and I tell my friend, "Hey man, this mushroom thing is bullshit, I don't feel anything at all."

We continue playing, and suddenly, literally, out of nowhere, there is a creature standing to the left of my friend watching Mario Kart on the large, rear projection TV that we used to have in the 90's. It was about four feet tall, had a protuberant belly, was green, had a very big mouth whose teeth protruded over its lips (like an alligator), and was wearing shorts, but no shirt. As soon as I recognized it, I jumped up, yelling to my friend, "OH MY GOD WHAT THE FUCK IS THAT SHIT!"

I wish I hadn't expressed my surprise so vehemently, because it disappeared immediately. My friend thought it would be a good idea to go outside for a cigarette, as he saw nothing and perhaps wanted to calm my nerves. Everything seemed perfectly normal again until we reached the backyard. I looked up and saw the night sky as I have never seen it before. Essentially, I realized that all things that man has ever invented, or become over time, was copied from the stars. I saw how all the constellations were more than just dots connected on a piece of paper for astrologists to predict your love life. I saw how the primitive man saw the stars and created technology based upon what they were reading from them. I asked myself, "How could I have never seen this before?"

Next, I looked down to the earth again, and saw legions of slaughtered, winged beings. They were hanging from the trees, crucified between tiki torches, just obliterated everywhere. I felt a connection to who and what they were. I felt a deep sense of some kind of spiritual war that was waged, and is being waged to this day. Also, a deep understanding of what we call dark might not necessarily be evil. Furthermore, what we call light might not necessarily be good.

Regardless, awesome thread, guys, look forward to listening to this episode. All of you are incredibly intelligent people. What really did come first, sauerkraut or great bratwurst?
Sweet.
I'll challenge you to some Kart! Although I prefer Super NES over 64... It's Sonic on PS3 these days.
I had LOTS of mushrooms and LSD throughout college. Found out from a coworker once who called the Blue Bus with a question about Ny-Quil... That it's a catalyst. So I tried that once...
Hadn't eaten much food that day, ate a lot of shrooms, and when I started feeling it, did a shot of Ny-Quil. BOOM.
Out of all my forty some odd trips, THAT was the one that took it to the next level, plane, whatever.
There's more to the story, but just wanted to shout out.
Interesting about the angles. Here's a bit from the Chilam Balam via The Great Pyramid Decoded by Peter Lemesurier:
All moons, all years, all days, all winds, reach their completion and pass away. So does all blood reach its place of quiet, as it reaches its power and its throne.
Measured was the time in which they could praise the splendour of the trinity. Measured was the time in which they could know the sun's benevolence. Measured was the time in which the grid of stars would look down upon them; and through it, keeping watch over their safety, the gods trapped within the stars would contemplate them.
 

Alex

Administrator
#26
But back to the meaning of it, I have feeling it’s (whatever it is) not going to be that complicated. Like the Pyramids.. once we gain concrete confirmation on the How and Why, I bet it will be like “oh, that’s neat..” and move on, just like everything else we consider absurd.
nice one! hadn't thought of it that way but can definitely see it being true. I mean, as soon as we even begin to entertain something like bruce fenton's 780,000 (i.e. non-human intelligence guiding human species evolution like a gardener tends his garden) the possibilities explode... and as you suggest... might even seem like a rather minor detail in the bigger picture.

and I guess david's argument might be that all this roman stuff I'm obsessing about would be even less significant minutiae :)
 
#28
After listening to the episode a second time, I have another analogy to help pose an argument.

Guns.

How many independent stories over time would you guess were made up about a magnificent man so fast/dexterous/agile that he could catch a bullet with his bare hands?
Before internet, or even radio, imagine these stories popping up all around the world wherever guns are sold, there's that one guy who got a little fame, and sure enough one of his legendary traits was his ability to catch a bullet. I mean, people would gather in crowds just to listen to the guy who saw it happen. I'm going to imagine that since the invention of guns, there's probably been a hundred thousand tales of the guys who could catch a bullet, and every one from a first hand witness...

Then one day, man invented this thing called a camera phone, and suddenly humans lost the ability to catch bullets!

So what does this have to do with the episode?

David is arguing that because all the stories in the bible are based on pre-existing star myths, that must mean the bible isn't really even about all the famous characters and their experiences of running into the divine. Rather the characters were devised only as rendition of star stories that already existed??

I say that the star myths were used as epoxy to encapsulate or cement the foundation of characters and their divine experiences.

The same way nobody actually ever caught a bullet, nobody ever fit every Earth animal on a single boat. Does that mean Noah didn't have a monumental divine experience?

Perhaps, the only way these stories ever got passed down was to attach them to a timeless foundation. Perhaps at the time this was understood by everyone as the only way possible to save a story for ever.
Your post is!
 
#29
There is data to suggest the aboriginals from Australia did just that. Not sure , but I think it had to do with a verifiable fosil record( the year of night) and one of their stories.
And it was more then just a few thousand years. Not posing as a expert but I believe they were heavily into astronomy.
 
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#30
Sweet.
I'll challenge you to some Kart! Although I prefer Super NES over 64... It's Sonic on PS3 these days.
I had LOTS of mushrooms and LSD throughout college. Found out from a coworker once who called the Blue Bus with a question about Ny-Quil... That it's a catalyst. So I tried that once...
Hadn't eaten much food that day, ate a lot of shrooms, and when I started feeling it, did a shot of Ny-Quil. BOOM.
Out of all my forty some odd trips, THAT was the one that took it to the next level, plane, whatever.
There's more to the story, but just wanted to shout out.
Interesting about the angles. Here's a bit from the Chilam Balam via The Great Pyramid Decoded by Peter Lemesurier:
All moons, all years, all days, all winds, reach their completion and pass away. So does all blood reach its place of quiet, as it reaches its power and its throne.
Measured was the time in which they could praise the splendour of the trinity. Measured was the time in which they could know the sun's benevolence. Measured was the time in which the grid of stars would look down upon them; and through it, keeping watch over their safety, the gods trapped within the stars would contemplate them.
For sure, brother, I am with you, let us do the Super NES version! That is how all this got started anyhow, and I agree with you: in many ways, the SNES version was just as good or better.

Going back to the stars: what I saw and felt on mushrooms was this primordial vision of how this modernity was created, and it was completely based upon looking at the structures we see in the constellations. Our overall destiny, without a shadow of a doubt, is written in the stars? The myriad of inconsequential realities that we experience in our everyday lives, though important to us as individuals, has no bearing on this fact? Perhaps? I really don't like that thought, because it makes each of us no more than a pebble in a stream. That is probably worse than feeling like a biological robot in a meaningless universe.

Nevertheless, when I looked up at the stars on mushrooms, suddenly I was the animal that learned to look up. No, I wasn't the beast foraging in the forest for berries or the occasional rat snack, but I was the one that stopped, and suddenly looked up, the one that became transfixed on the heavens. These stars, their positions, their "constellations," showed me that all we have is an imperfect interpretation of the stories that they tell.
 
#31
nice. agreed. egoless... less ego :)
I think that a true ego is that reflection on oneself that need not be better than everybody else. In this way, I try to redeem the terminology: "ego." Otherwise, it is breakfast conversation that marinates in the syrup of something between waffles vs. pancakes.

Love your work, bro. Keep it up!
 
#32
For sure, brother, I am with you, let us do the Super NES version! That is how all this got started anyhow, and I agree with you: in many ways, the SNES version was just as good or better.

Going back to the stars: what I saw and felt on mushrooms was this primordial vision of how this modernity was created, and it was completely based upon looking at the structures we see in the constellations. Our overall destiny, without a shadow of a doubt, is written in the stars? The myriad of inconsequential realities that we experience in our everyday lives, though important to us as individuals, has no bearing on this fact? Perhaps? I really don't like that thought, because it makes each of us no more than a pebble in a stream. That is probably worse than feeling like a biological robot in a meaningless universe.

Nevertheless, when I looked up at the stars on mushrooms, suddenly I was the animal that learned to look up. No, I wasn't the beast foraging in the forest for berries or the occasional rat snack, but I was the one that stopped, and suddenly looked up, the one that became transfixed on the heavens. These stars, their positions, their "constellations," showed me that all we have is an imperfect interpretation of the stories that they tell.
Yeah, I think what dude was trying to say, but kept getting railroaded, was that they have similar symbolism or motifs in seemingly disparate cultures. Far removed from one another. So common origin. Not just our imaginations making shapes out of dots.
Plus, they only all look that way from our perspective, so it must be something greater than just shapes.
 
#33
I took my share of trips there in the late 70's early 80's too . Any experience you had was caused by an alteration in brain chemistry, nothing super natural. It can open your mind do a different way of thinking , give you that.
 
#34
I took my share of trips there in the late 70's early 80's too . Any experience you had was caused by an alteration in brain chemistry, nothing super natural. It can open your mind do a different way of thinking , give you that.
I read the bible a lot in the 80's, too. Any spiritual experience you had was based upon social pressures causing alterations in your brain chemistry, albeit via family or otherwise, nothing super natural. It can close your mind to unquestionable, brainwashed ways of thinking, I will give you that.
 
#35
Yeah, I think what dude was trying to say, but kept getting railroaded, was that they have similar symbolism or motifs in seemingly disparate cultures. Far removed from one another. So common origin. Not just our imaginations making shapes out of dots.
Plus, they only all look that way from our perspective, so it must be something greater than just shapes.
Mathisen is an interesting dude. I can't break this image he laid out for us: a guy in a shed, with a billboard on the wall similar to what you see in an old school detective's office: different pictures, writing, maps, diagrams, and dates all being pinned together by red string. I love that kind of outside of the box independent thinking. Furthermore, I think that is even more interesting that he broke through Christianity and did not go back to it the same way, like these "eye wide open faith" clowns. In my opinion, he is a genuine thinker and I look forward to reading his books.

Regarding the stars.......perhaps that was the media of primordial beings. They go from this feverish intensity of dealing with the elements, being chased by predators, constant war, mindless rape and pillaging.....and suddenly, this daring beast of beasts looks up. Perhaps they fashioned a weapon that was inspired by the constellations. Maybe that same man conquered many and told others that his inspiration was from the stars. It might have been divine intervention in the truest sense of the phrase. This need not be a secular interpretation. It could be that the divinity is up there, and we have transfixed our worship into the television.....where our stars are now.

By the way, brother, totally down for a classic, SNES Mario Kart match.
 
#36
I have listened to this episode in its entirety, and love all of it. First of all, don't hate on Mathisen for taking a unique perspective. Also, I have a new found respect for Alex's questioning of everything regarding Josephus. Alex is exposing Christianity for the absolute sham that it is, and he is doing so carefully. Furthermore, Mathisen's work regarding the stars is incredibly important. A lot of the so called "truth" community cannot get off of the chains of cognitive dissonance ensnared by politics and religion. The same people that have discovered the false dichotomy of "Republican vs. Democrat" cannot tell that their religious beliefs are founded upon the exact same kind of psychological operation.

Fantastic episode, Alex! Keep cracking open minds!
 

Alex

Administrator
#37
A lot of the so called "truth" community cannot get off of the chains of cognitive dissonance ensnared by politics and religion. The same people that have discovered the false dichotomy of "Republican vs. Democrat" cannot tell that their religious beliefs are founded upon the exact same kind of psychological operation.
yeah, I keep coming back to this point. the deeper I get into this the more I see its relevance to what's going on right now.

and I agree with you about Mathisen -- he's brilliantly pointing at a very important truth... but I do wish I could move dave to some other questions about potential origins of the star myth creators and their motivations. I mean, when he slips into the "great gift" stuff I feel like we're heading down the same old christian sinkhole.
 
#39
yeah, I keep coming back to this point. the deeper I get into this the more I see its relevance to what's going on right now.

and I agree with you about Mathisen -- he's brilliantly pointing at a very important truth... but I do wish I could move dave to some other questions about potential origins of the star myth creators and their motivations. I mean, when he slips into the "great gift" stuff I feel like we're heading down the same old christian sinkhole.
I agree with you. It cannot simply be seen as a "great gift" and leave it at that. This is the same reason I go bananas when I hear people build an edifice of things that seem brilliant, yet, at the foundation, there is nothing there. I don't understand thought constricting analysis that is simply suppose to float on "faith." We should be free to question everything.
 
#40
I read the bible a lot in the 80's, too. Any spiritual experience you had was based upon social pressures causing alterations in your brain chemistry, albeit via family or otherwise, nothing super natural. It can close your mind to unquestionable, brainwashed ways of thinking, I will give you that.
If you need to take drugs for your fake theological poison , then its a lose lose for you.
 
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