Dr. Dan Wilson, Covid-19 Mask Science |490|

i have sympathy for them (most people at least) too which i pointed out in the post you replied too.
Read the post again
'Obviously there has to be compassion for people in difficult situations. Am gonna be blunt tho. Motorcycling was not his reason for existence. At the time of suicide he was a lightweight who killed himself. The same goes for anyone else who kills themselves and doesnt fight it to the end (aside from 'maybe' taking one's life in order to save others, like not getting caught by interogating enemy troops). It's harsh to say considering how much pain and grief people can go through, but that's how it is'

as well as subsequent posts

What is your point? That suicide is the way forward and should be encouraged?
'
I wasn't saying you have no sympathy for suicide victims. It was supposed to be a general comment on the distaste many ppl display for it. For example, why do we say suicide victims 'committed suicide,' like 'committed murder?' We don't say she committed cancer or he killed himself w/ a stroke. Some say 70% of disease conditions are brought on by a person's mental state and/or poor stress management, yet a heart attack is given a pass even though the person was obese, smoked, etc., all disease-producing conditions that could have been avoided.
No, I don't recommend suicide but assisted suicide has its place. That old saying that 'suffering purifies the soul' is to me just more drivel that slights a person's choice to leave this life when they choose.
 
I wasn't saying you have no sympathy for suicide victims. It was supposed to be a general comment on the distaste many ppl display for it. For example, why do we say suicide victims 'committed suicide,' like 'committed murder?' We don't say she committed cancer or he killed himself w/ a stroke. Some say 70% of disease conditions are brought on by a person's mental state and/or poor stress management, yet a heart attack is given a pass even though the person was obese, smoked, etc., all disease-producing conditions that could have been avoided.
No, I don't recommend suicide but assisted suicide has its place. That old saying that 'suffering purifies the soul' is to me just more drivel that slights a person's choice to leave this life when they choose.
I think that suicide is a wonderful option for those who truly feel that their life is not worth living anymore, and I think it is an honorable option if that is the case. If you have exhausted all possible resources, and you must live as an hourly slave to the system, then why not kill yourself? Of course, there is always hope, but that well doesn't last forever. I completely understand why people commit suicide, and I think they shouldn't be ridiculed for it.
 
I think that what we see
Is the digits and dreams
Of dead keys
I would write with bones and toes
I wish a miracle could be

Floss and Wallets with clothes

Scribbling paper towels
The original nut always goes

Could I paint my pen Golden
Give my instrument a key
May I connect via a token
and glow

With the right chloroform
is it possible to paint myself
To taint myself radiant
From head to toe in rare form

Should I get back
that hurricane attic
The Street Fighter
The shnek like dak tada ru kick

May I summon the sun
Be someone for fun
Or just continue as a long lust
Conundrum
 
I wasn't saying you have no sympathy for suicide victims. It was supposed to be a general comment on the distaste many ppl display for it. For example, why do we say suicide victims 'committed suicide,' like 'committed murder?' We don't say she committed cancer or he killed himself w/ a stroke. Some say 70% of disease conditions are brought on by a person's mental state and/or poor stress management, yet a heart attack is given a pass even though the person was obese, smoked, etc., all disease-producing conditions that could have been avoided.
No, I don't recommend suicide but assisted suicide has its place. That old saying that 'suffering purifies the soul' is to me just more drivel that slights a person's choice to leave this life when they choose.
i think you could say that suffering is unavoidable even if it is just based on observing what many people go through.
Also assisted suicide is a bad idea imo.
How many times have most people felt they had the weight of loads of 'unsolvable' and 'unmanageable' problems on them which after a good nights sleep and breakfast not only do the problems not seem unsolvable and less severe than when experienced in a tired state the night before, but feel greatful that are in a conscious position to begin to fix those problems. The almost complete contrast in feeling to the exact same set of circumstances after a time period has always stood out as something very telling about humans biological make up, or at least my own. That good nights sleep may take someone months or even years to get to but they wont get the chance if they have been entangled in some officially excusing and condoning suicide centre. Deciding that one can be of no more use to the very real struggles on this planet, not today or ever and it's suicide time without dying trying (for innocent peoples sake if not their own) is pretty shortsighted if you ask me, not to mention in most peoples cases the inevitability that other people will be left behind, often for the rest of their lives, wondering what they could have done or if they are to blame for person killing themself. That in turn can affect the lives of people around those affected individuals and so on.
 

Alex

Administrator
I think that suicide is a wonderful option for those who truly feel that their life is not worth living anymore, and I think it is an honorable option if that is the case. If you have exhausted all possible resources, and you must live as an hourly slave to the system, then why not kill yourself? Of course, there is always hope, but that well doesn't last forever. I completely understand why people commit suicide, and I think they shouldn't be ridiculed for it.
IDK... maybe... but I think this perspective should at least be considered:
https://www.google.com/search?q=nde...ome..69i57.14007j0j1&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
 
IDK... maybe... but I think this perspective should at least be considered:
https://www.google.com/search?q=nde...ome..69i57.14007j0j1&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
Hey, thanks for the link. Of course, just about the time I think I've run across every source for NDEs, etc. there's another one! The whole topic of suicide is so complex on one level. One French woman put a video on Utube about her 3 NDEs. The second one was a suicide b/c she was very sad & wanted to see the beautiful woman again who held her in her first NDE from a snake bite. She was hustled off home; not such a nice experience! All I'm certain of at this point is that killing yourself can be a fast or slow process. Either way you've missed out on the point of the experience somewhere.
 
IDK... maybe... but I think this perspective should at least be considered:
https://www.google.com/search?q=nde...ome..69i57.14007j0j1&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
This is because killing yourself may not be an escape from reality, but another kind of prison. I recognize this is a highly probably possibility. However, I understand the other hopeful possibility for those that live incredibly oppressive lives: you die, this shit is shut off, and you don't have to think about anything anymore, let alone suffer

I think that these two possibilities are a lot more likely than that idiot, Nick Bostrom's simulation theory.

I am not absolutely sure about anything. I have written about my paranormal experiences on this forum, and all are absolutely true, but what is really paranormal? I assure you, it is only those experiences that are not habitual to you that are described as paranormal. This world, this life, is completely paranormal.
 
I have to agree w/ you. Materialism to me is the most rancid expression of the need to control everything; not one person should be unpredictable or gifted to any great extent beyond all others.
Dr. Terri Daniels reported that 21% of ppl surveyed said they had regular contact w/ deceased persons. I'm sure it would be a bit higher if some of the more timid ones were truthful. I'm sure you're aware that, not all that long ago, claiming a NDE could get you referred to a psychiatric ward whether you wanted it or not. I was horrified to learn from my history of psychological experimentation textbook that some studies were even considered, much less allowed. Some completely callous researcher actually had orphanage workers ignore half of the infants while picking up & holding the rest to see WHICH GROUP WOULD FARE BETTER! Only a completely disconnected imbecile would not know what the results would be! This is the depth of emptiness to which materialism allows some ppl to stoop. This appalling level of insensitivity was on full display at a B. F. Skinner dominated treatment center that I toured on a field trip. That left me w/ no desire to investigate Behaviorism any further.
 
I would like to inject some science news. Is anyone interested?

https://www.livescience.com/randomized-trial-shows-surgical-masks-work-curbing-covid.html

Summary: those who wear masks and socially distance get less covid.
Conclusion: masks work!!!

"They also found that physical distancing was about 24.1% in the control group observations compared with 29.2% in the treatment group." I wonder what the measurement error is here?

My brain is falling out. Its mush. Someone pick it up off the floor. If you don't control for the effect of distance on covid transmission, how do you know the mask worked?

"Surveillance staff observed a single individual and recorded that person as practicing physical distancing if s/he was at least one arm’s length away from all other people."
 
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I would like to inject some science news. Is anyone interested?

https://www.livescience.com/randomized-trial-shows-surgical-masks-work-curbing-covid.html

Summary: those who wear masks and socially distance get less covid.
Conclusion: masks work!!!

"They also found that physical distancing was about 24.1% in the control group observations compared with 29.2% in the treatment group." I wonder what the measurement error is here?

My brain is falling out. Its mush. Someone pick it up off the floor. If you don't control for the effect of distance on covid transmission, how do you know the mask worked?

"Surveillance staff observed a single individual and recorded that person as practicing physical distancing if s/he was at least one arm’s length away from all other people."
Of course, mask-wearing reduces a person's exposure to air-borne pathogens, BUT they have to be of a certain quality of construction, wore properly, wore the entire time outside, etc. What I have observed in person & in the news is a half-hearted attempt: w/ the nose exposed, under the chin, take it off, put it back on, all w/ little or no social distancing. In rural Philippines, vaccines are available, but a large portion of the ppl don't want it b/c of all the fear-mongering, & most of what is offered is SinoVac or J and J, which have poor reputations online; most ppl already hate & fear the Chinese, so forget Sino anything. The weirdest development lately is there's some quarantine level supposedly in place, but there's no regulation of who enters or leaves the open-air market although ppl are lounging at tables under tents marked as checkpoints! I cruised through a crowded downtown section in my car: usual sloppy mask-wearing if wore at all & certainly no social distancing.
 

Alex

Administrator
https://www.livescience.com/randomized-trial-shows-surgical-masks-work-curbing-covid.html

thx for sharing... had not seen.


Summary: those who wear masks and socially distance get less covid.


"They also found that physical distancing was about 24.1% in the control group observations compared with 29.2% in the treatment group." I wonder what the measurement error is here?

My brain is falling out. Its mush. Someone pick it up off the floor. If you don't control for the effect of distance on covid transmission, how do you know the mask worked?

"Surveillance staff observed a single individual and recorded that person as practicing physical distancing if s/he was at least one arm’s length away from all other people."[/QUOTE]

haha... great points. also, we now have a lot of staticial data from mask restricted states/counties/citities.

pls keep us updated as this paper makes it's way thru peer review and into publication.
 

Alex

Administrator
other things I noticed in the study:
https://www.poverty-action.org/site..._RCT____Symptomatic_Seropositivity_083121.pdf

1. We cross-randomized mask promotion strategies at the village and household level, including
cloth vs. surgical masks.
--
In focus groups conducted prior to the study, participants said they preferred cloth over surgical
masks because they perceived surgical masks to be single-use only and cloth masks to be more
durable
. Focus group participants also provided feedback on different cloth masks designs and
sizes. Both types of masks were manufactured in Bangladesh. The cloth mask had an exterior layer
of 100% non-woven polypropylene (70 grams/square meter [gsm]), two interior layers of 60%
cotton / 40% polyester interlocking knit (190 gsm), an elastic loop that goes around the head above
and below the ears, and a nose bridge. The surgical mask had three layers of 100% non-woven
polypropylene (the exterior and interiors were spunbond and the middle layer was meltblown),
elastic ear loops, and a nose bridge. The filtration efficiency was 37% (standard deviation [SD] =
6%) for the cloth masks, and 95% (SD = 1%) for the surgical masks (manuscript forthcoming).3


2. Mask-wearing and physical distancing were assessed through direct observation at least weekly.
... if I'm reading this right they hired someone to count mask wearers once a week... wow, that seems kinda lame

3.
Surveillance staff observed a single individual
and recorded that person as practicing physical distancing if s/he was at least one arm’s length away
from all other people. This is consistent with the WHO guideline that defines physical distancing
as one meter of separation.6 Surveillance was conducted using a standard protocol that instructed
staff to spend one hour at each of the following high-traffic locations in the village: market, restaurant entrances, main road, tea stalls, and mosque, changing the location and timing to record the
mask-wearing and physical distancing practices of as many individuals as possible. While SARSCoV-2 transmission is more likely in indoor locations with limited ventilation than outside, rural
Bangladeshi villages have few non-residential spaces where people gather, so observations were
conducted outside
except at the mosque, where surveillance was conducted inside.

... classic junk science

... also, see the tweet below it looks like folks were talking their masks off when they entered the mosque, but then they told them to put them on and 50% of people did.

3. There was no physical distancing practiced in any mosque, in either treatment or control villages, probably as a result of
the strong religious norm of standing shoulder-to-shoulder when praying.

... classic junk science


4. Surveillance staff noted whether adults were wearing any mask or face covering, whether the mask was one distributed by our project (and if so, the color), and whether the mask was worn over both the mouth and nose.

5. They recorded the mask-wearing behavior of all of the adults they
were able to observe during surveillance periods; observations were not limited to adults from
enrolled households
.
... I get that this kind of study is really hard to do, but isn't this a ridiculous lack of control

6. We defined proper mask-wearing as wearing either a project mask or an
alternative face-covering over the mouth and nose
.
... so not only do you have two different kind of masks in your study... but your "surveillance"/counting of masks use includes people who are using " face covering." I mean, does this include muslim women who are wrapped those scarves around their face?

7. ok I'm kind of losing patience with this but my biggest takeaways are
-- we now know that covid is largely spread indoors... within households. this study seems to completely ignore this fact
-- we know social distancing is way more important than mask wearing... but this study seems to be some kind of weird mash of social distancing and mask-wearing. yeah, we told them to social distance, but they really didn't do that much so we doubledDown on the face covering thing.

Boy, this sure looks like junk science to me.

I hope others weigh in

 

Alex

Administrator
https://www.livescience.com/randomized-trial-shows-surgical-masks-work-curbing-covid.html

=====

The results — from the highest-quality, gold-standard type of clinical trial, known as a randomized controlled trial — should "end any scientific debate" on whether masks are effective in battling the spread of COVID-19, Jason Abaluck, an economist at Yale and one of the authors who helped lead the study, told The Washington Post.

===
come on, it's not just the type of trial it's the controls that you used. if you have shitty controls it doesn't make up for the experiment being a" randomized control trial"

and wow... really... " end any scientific debate"!!!

this looks more and more like classic junk science

if anyone wants to reach out to this guy love to have him on Skeptiko
 
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other things I noticed in the study:
https://www.poverty-action.org/site..._RCT____Symptomatic_Seropositivity_083121.pdf

1. We cross-randomized mask promotion strategies at the village and household level, including
cloth vs. surgical masks.
--
In focus groups conducted prior to the study, participants said they preferred cloth over surgical
masks because they perceived surgical masks to be single-use only and cloth masks to be more
durable
. Focus group participants also provided feedback on different cloth masks designs and
sizes. Both types of masks were manufactured in Bangladesh. The cloth mask had an exterior layer
of 100% non-woven polypropylene (70 grams/square meter [gsm]), two interior layers of 60%
cotton / 40% polyester interlocking knit (190 gsm), an elastic loop that goes around the head above
and below the ears, and a nose bridge. The surgical mask had three layers of 100% non-woven
polypropylene (the exterior and interiors were spunbond and the middle layer was meltblown),
elastic ear loops, and a nose bridge. The filtration efficiency was 37% (standard deviation [SD] =
6%) for the cloth masks, and 95% (SD = 1%) for the surgical masks (manuscript forthcoming).3


2. Mask-wearing and physical distancing were assessed through direct observation at least weekly.
... if I'm reading this right they hired someone to count mask wearers once a week... wow, that seems kinda lame

3.
Surveillance staff observed a single individual
and recorded that person as practicing physical distancing if s/he was at least one arm’s length away
from all other people. This is consistent with the WHO guideline that defines physical distancing
as one meter of separation.6 Surveillance was conducted using a standard protocol that instructed
staff to spend one hour at each of the following high-traffic locations in the village: market, restaurant entrances, main road, tea stalls, and mosque, changing the location and timing to record the
mask-wearing and physical distancing practices of as many individuals as possible. While SARSCoV-2 transmission is more likely in indoor locations with limited ventilation than outside, rural
Bangladeshi villages have few non-residential spaces where people gather, so observations were
conducted outside
except at the mosque, where surveillance was conducted inside.

... classic junk science

... also, see the tweet below it looks like folks were talking their masks off when they entered the mosque, but then they told them to put them on and 50% of people did.

3. There was no physical distancing practiced in any mosque, in either treatment or control villages, probably as a result of
the strong religious norm of standing shoulder-to-shoulder when praying.

... classic junk science


4. Surveillance staff noted whether adults were wearing any mask or face covering, whether the mask was one distributed by our project (and if so, the color), and whether the mask was worn over both the mouth and nose.

5. They recorded the mask-wearing behavior of all of the adults they
were able to observe during surveillance periods; observations were not limited to adults from
enrolled households
.
... I get that this kind of study is really hard to do, but isn't this a ridiculous lack of control

6. We defined proper mask-wearing as wearing either a project mask or an
alternative face-covering over the mouth and nose
.
... so not only do you have two different kind of masks in your study... but your "surveillance"/counting of masks use includes people who are using " face covering." I mean, does this include muslim women who are wrapped those scarves around their face?

7. ok I'm kind of losing patience with this but my biggest takeaways are
-- we now know that covid is largely spread indoors... within households. this study seems to completely ignore this fact
-- we know social distancing is way more important than mask wearing... but this study seems to be some kind of weird mash of social distancing and mask-wearing. yeah, we told them to social distance, but they really didn't do that much so we doubledDown on the face covering thing.

Boy, this sure looks like junk science to me.

I hope others weigh in

I think they win kudos for honesty. The flaws are right there, warts and all. But its a preprint so time will tell.

Mask wearing out to have some benefit. I definitely wore my single use n95 mask while flying. But its total nonsense to require it.

Morality and knowledge interact. Sometimes in surprising ways I hope the British court system one day tests:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral...m_law#Right_to_object_to_derogatory_treatment

(It's not clear if this law applies to research articles but its also clear its a concept known by researchers / universities).

See here: https://nrl.northumbria.ac.uk/id/eprint/44688/1/NRL_44688.pdf (Search for 'moral rights are"...
 

Alex

Administrator
I think they win kudos for honesty. The flaws are right there, warts and all. But its a preprint so time will tell.

Mask wearing out to have some benefit. I definitely wore my single use n95 mask while flying. But its total nonsense to require it.

Morality and knowledge interact. Sometimes in surprising ways I hope the British court system one day tests:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral...m_law#Right_to_object_to_derogatory_treatment

(It's not clear if this law applies to research articles but its also clear its a concept known by researchers / universities).

See here: https://nrl.northumbria.ac.uk/id/eprint/44688/1/NRL_44688.pdf (Search for 'moral rights are"...
thanks again for posting this. I dug into it a lot. I invited the guy from yale... and a woman from stanford. I'm going to do a show on this
 
thanks again for posting this. I dug into it a lot. I invited the guy from yale... and a woman from stanford. I'm going to do a show on this
Will it cover the law too? Although its clear to me that Yale is very influential when it comes to social policy. I think the 'moral rights' idea doesn't apply in the USA , right? But research is transnational.

One other question: what would a good prospective study on NDE's or other phenomena ask?
 

Alex

Administrator
Will it cover the law too? Although its clear to me that Yale is very influential when it comes to social policy. I think the 'moral rights' idea doesn't apply in the USA , right? But research is transnational.

One other question: what would a good prospective study on NDE's or other phenomena ask?
pls tell me more about what you mean.
 
Does the right to object to derogatory treatment in the UK apply to research criticism? For example, some one "explaining" one's research article in a way that comes to the opposite conclusion. Eg, you say masks don't work but the research was done and it does work, or vice versa. Then you can sue for damages.

Of course, one assumes some kind of monetary or social status benefit. Book sales, research grants, etc from having a different opinion.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral...m_law#Right_to_object_to_derogatory_treatment

It's just a concern of mine. I don't have the business / legal background to say if it applies at all for research. Seems like a major problem if it does.

As for a prospective NDE study, what questions remain for you? It seems like your focus has turned elsewhere on skeptiko.
 
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