Dr. Dan Wilson, Covid-19 Mask Science |490|

I don't have any problem with sitting around BSing. If that's the case, what's with all the avoidance and derision with respect to mainstream sources?

Because mainstream sources are full of shit?

I know, simplistic answer. Easy to take issue with. But also not hard to understand why people have low trust nowadays with all the manipulation going on. That would be the main thrust of the answer to your question, inter alia.
 
Well I suspect you are. I mean, Fauci is probably in on the whole 'project' to exaggerate the significance of this virus. He manipulates his language to achieve an end, and it isn't an end that any of us would approve of.
David,
Do you disagree that covid could kill millions of elderly and frail/ill people?

My position has always been that covid is real, but not a threat to most of us; especially not to children and productive people.

I do think that there is still a lot of low hanging fruit for the virus to reap; just that I do not believe that the children and productive people's success and freedom should be sacrificed for those who are going to die anyhow.

That is the equation that Fauci cannot address.

I don't think that your typical dummy that cares about the lives of celebrities is able to absorb any of this. I also do not think the media is capable of handling it honestly (Eric Newhill wants grandma to simply die off so he can live his life normally! Monster!")

Trump couldn't say it either, which is how he got boxed in and left an opening for Biden to attack him. Trump basically followed Fauci because he had no other choice. And Fauci laid out what he did because he didn't have a choice either.

Just because the covid situation is being used to justify "the great re-set" and other major political initiatives doesn't mean it was created or perpetuated for those reasons. Opportunists are going to seize opportunities. Vultures on road kill don't collude with drivers to hit animals.
All too logical AND (notably) a post that facilitates real dialogue. (Versus the trend here which seems to be a simple binary: Does the poster embrace the conspiracy? If yes, engage with him/her. If no, dismiss them as a mainstream apologist.)
 
All too logical AND (notably) a post that facilitates real dialogue. (Versus the trend here which seems to be a simple binary: Does the poster embrace the conspiracy? If yes, engage with him/her. If no, dismiss them as a mainstream apologist.)

Yawn.


I'm gonna take issue with your faux concerns about the quality of posting here Silence, because ironically, you always seem to fall back to this binary approach yourself.

Does the poster fit into a nice neat little box where I can map out the whole of their being if it makes sense to me? If yes, they are logical and smart. If no, dismiss them as a conspiracy theorist and intellectualise their faults according to my worldview.
 
Yawn.


I'm gonna take issue with your faux concerns about the quality of posting here Silence, because ironically, you always seem to fall back to this binary approach yourself.

Does the poster fit into a nice neat little box where I can map out the whole of their being if it makes sense to me? If yes, they are logical and smart. If no, dismiss them as a conspiracy theorist and intellectualise their faults according to my worldview.

Well, instead of impugning Silence's motives, why don't you give it a try, even if it's just the three of us?

The evidence is very clear and even the CDC and Fauci won't dispute it. Covid is not killing children or people under 55 who are relatively healthy. For that matter, it rarely is more than a bad flu (at worst) for those over 55. The deaths are predominantly among those at (or near) their actuarially expected last year of life based on age and health status. None of that is tin foil hat internet "evidence". It is established fact that no one disputes.

Covid obviously should represent an ethical question as opposed to a public health exercise. Masks, social distancing, etc are all strictly public health sideshows and putting the cart before the horse. The reaction to covid should never have been strictly a public health call. To a man with a hammer, everything looks like a nail. Buying into masks work/don't work is a suckers game.

The real options are:
1. Up-end entire society and lose a significant number of young(er) lives due to disrupted medical care, despair, destroyed businesses/job loss, print huge sums of money that we don't have, take away basic freedoms, like the right to travel, associate and practice religious services, etc, etc, etc. - all to save some unquantifiable number of people who's lives were just about over anyhow.
2. Have life go on as normal for everyone, but with some level of quarantine and/or other protection for those most at risk (nursing homes, especially) and accept that, despite best efforts, there will be some level of increased deaths among the elderly and chronically ill
3. ?
 
Eric,

I have already been through this many times with Silence and others. That is why I speak to them as I do. Why repeat the same points about the effects on society and the economy and how COVID isn't really as deadly as it's made out to be etc etc, to persons who already know about all the issues?

Sorry, I've been there and done that.
 
Eric,

I have already been through this many times with Silence and others. That is why I speak to them as I do. Why repeat the same points about the effects on society and the economy and how COVID isn't really as deadly as it's made out to be etc etc, to persons who already know about all the issues?

Sorry, I've been there and done that.

Diver,
I think you might be missing my point and - perhaps - Silence's as well.

I think that Alex, along with others here, are experiencing angst because they see bad science being practiced - or even a complete lack of science in some instances.

The point being threefold.

1. Many people - I'd hazard most people - simply do not place solid uncompromising science at the top of their priority list. They have other priorities, complexities and they have blind spots. There is not a conspiracy per se to offer up bad science. It's just that science gets compromised in the mix of other values and the blind spots. Take covid. No politician or other authority charged with creating policy wanted to dismiss covid as harmless to the vast majority of us. After all, it was new and the evidence wasn't complete. What if they were wrong? They erred on the side of caution. There were the professional distortions of people like Fauci. He thinks like a public health expert; not like an economist or actuary or Constitutional lawyer. Now that the evidence is in, what politician wants to say they were wrong? What of public trust in societal leaders? What of careers? What if the virus mutates and does become deadly to a wider demographic? How do we ease out of our erroneous policy now that half of the citizens are terrified of covid? How do we deal with the sensationalizing media? There's cognitive dissonance within the decision makers. I'm not saying any of the above decisions are the right ones or even ok. Just that people screw up. Happens every day. Have you ever made bad decisions? I have. We're all human. How about a member of a team or organization that screwed up? It's a fascinating thing to watch from the inside as the screw up organically grows to fruition.

2. The answer to all of point 1 isn't to go out on YouTube and listen to some crank peddling equally bad, albeit contrary, science and declare that there is a massive conspiracy afoot.

3. Arguing about mask efficacy is, I suppose, a mildly amusing distraction. However, it is a bit like discussing whether or not MREs eaten by troops in the combat zone provide sufficient nutrition when the real question is, "why are we in a war in the first place?". What assumptions, group think, blind spots, discussion taboos, values, ethics got us into a war is what counts.

There is no way a handful of conspiratorial people could perpetrate a covid situation, ubiquitous bad science or a war unless everyone else who is participating essentially wanted to be duped into it, meaning basically that, if there is a conspiracy afoot, we have met the conspirators .....and they are us.
 
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David,
Do you disagree that covid could kill millions of elderly and frail/ill people?
Well only in a very technical sense. A friend of mine and his wife caught a bug a few years back. He was ill for a few days, but she had had many rounds of chemo, and went into hospital and died. He was with her when it happened - there was no question of infection control. This sort of thing is totally normal - otherwise mild infections such as flu, common colds, etc kill people when they are close to death for other reasons. I am not sure this used to be even recorded on the death certificate. Now people enter hospital in a poor condition, get tested for COVID, and the test comes up positive - genuinely or spuriously - and if they die, they are recorded as dying of COVID. If the tests had existed for the myriad of other bugs that could do this, we could have had this crisis decades ago.

This is a crisis created out of testing!

David
 
Well only in a very technical sense. A friend of mine and his wife caught a bug a few years back. He was ill for a few days, but she had had many rounds of chemo, and went into hospital and died. He was with her when it happened - there was no question of infection control. This sort of thing is totally normal - otherwise mild infections such as flu, common colds, etc kill people when they are close to death for other reasons. I am not sure this used to be even recorded on the death certificate. Now people enter hospital in a poor condition, get tested for COVID, and the test comes up positive - genuinely or spuriously - and if they die, they are recorded as dying of COVID. If the tests had existed for the myriad of other bugs that could do this, we could have had this crisis decades ago. It is a crisis created out of testing!

David

David,
Yes. I agree with what everything you wrote. 6months ago I would have let is rest right there. However, I have come to understand that covid, for a subset of compromised individuals, is more deadly than the flu. It attacks the respiratory system is a particularly vicious way. That is one reason the morbidly obese can get killed by it at a younger age (55-ish on avg). They are already hypertensive among other problems. The strain on their breathing puts them over the edge.

There is an obesity epidemic in the US. There are many older people clinging to life due to medical treatments. 50 years ago they would already have died. All of these people could be wiped out if heavily exposed.
 
Diver,
I think you might be missing my point and - perhaps - Silence's as well.

I think that Alex, along with others here, are experiencing angst because they see bad science being practiced - or even a complete lack of science in some instances.

The point being threefold.

1. Many people - I'd hazard most people - simply do not place solid uncompromising science at the top of their priority list. They have other priorities, complexities and they have blind spots. There is not a conspiracy per se to offer up bad science. It's just that science gets compromised in the mix of other values and the blind spots. Take covid. No politician or other authority charged with creating policy wanted to dismiss covid as harmless to the vast majority of us. After all, it was new and the evidence wasn't complete. What if they were wrong? They erred on the side of caution. There were the professional distortions of people like Fauci. He thinks like a public health expert; not like an economist or actuary or Constitutional lawyer. Now that the evidence is in, what politician wants to say they were wrong? What of public trust in societal leaders? What of careers? What if the virus mutates and does become deadly to a wider demographic? How do we ease out of our erroneous policy now that half of the citizens are terrified of covid? How do we deal with the sensationalizing media? There's cognitive dissonance within the decision makers. I'm not saying any of the above decisions are the right ones or even ok. Just that people screw up. Happens every day. Have you ever made bad decisions? I have. We're all human. How about a member of a team or organization that screwed up? It's a fascinating thing to watch from the inside as the screw up organically grows to fruition.

2. The answer to all of point 1 isn't to go out on YouTube and listen to some crank peddling equally bad, albeit contrary, science and declare that there is a massive conspiracy afoot.

3. Arguing about mask efficacy is, I suppose, a mildly amusing distraction. However, it is a bit like discussing whether or not MREs eaten by troops in the combat zone provide sufficient nutrition when the real question is, "why are we in a war in the first place?". What assumptions, group think, blind spots, discussion taboos, values, ethics got us into a war is what counts.

There is no way a handful of conspiratorial people could perpetrate a covid situation, ubiquitous bad science or a war unless everyone else who is participating essentially wanted to be duped into it, meaning basically that, if there is a conspiracy afoot, we have met the conspirators .....and they are us.

Ok, fair enough.

1. You are partly correct about our leaders, and I get the point whereby if they got it wrong then public trust would be so very tested etc. But you also miss the other half whereby you assume that they all act with our best interests at heart on everything. You project your own morals onto people who more than likely, from what I've seen throughout my life, could hardly give a shit about you, and see us as brainless sheep to be cared for to produce things for the elite, and to be controlled so that we may not rebel.

The point about science, is understood and I acknowledge that this seems to be the case many times, yes. BUT also purely looking at the science is missing half the picture, again. People were going on about the science, the science, the science when in the darker days of lockdown, using it to justify curfews and the arresting of people for sitting on benches, and stopping people from visiting their loved ones etc. I can go on and on.

2. That's just silly though. It really isn't either or, many people unfortunately seem to do this however so I can kind of see your point.

3. I think the arguments and discussions around masks are perfectly fine, despite others saying how it isn't that important. It's a good starting point to highlight how ridiculous things are.

As to your last paragraph, well, yes I would partially agree. The consent of the populace does still seem to be required for the 'show to go on'. So actually, to my mind, it's fairly easy to see how these elites can meet up at Davos et al, and come up with shady shit to manipulate the world.
 
Ok, fair enough.

1. You are partly correct about our leaders, and I get the point whereby if they got it wrong then public trust would be so very tested etc. But you also miss the other half whereby you assume that they all act with our best interests at heart on everything. You project your own morals onto people who more than likely, from what I've seen throughout my life, could hardly give a shit about you, and see us as brainless sheep to be cared for to produce things for the elite, and to be controlled so that we may not rebel.

No. I'm aware of that type. As I have consistently said, there are evil actors in every crowd. I know that many of these people don't share my morals. I'm just trying to strike a balance in discussion.

But these people are manipulators by trade and, usually, cowards at a personal level. If we just said, "Fuck off or we'll kill you" they'd be gone. The second amendment is so critical! Note how they hate it and want to disarm us.

As far as keeping people in society under control, there is a balance need on that imperative as well. I think that few want to live in the Wild West. Yet, people must also be free to live and think and feel as they want to. Like I said, these are complex highly nuanced issues with lots of grey areas that are being addressed by people with all of the usual human flaws. To write it all off as "the Illuminati are out to get us" won't do. Sure there are Davos jerk-offs planning things. There are always Davos jerk-offs planning things; just as there are always anarchists throwing bombs and war lords warring, and pacifists calling for world peace and other utopians seeking a giant global commune and con artists conning and business people selling things and truth seekers seeking and experiencing angst because of all the other types doing what they do....nothing new under the sun.
 
No. I'm aware of that type. As I have consistently said, there are evil actors in every crowd. I know that many of these people don't share my morals. I'm just trying to strike a balance in discussion.

But these people are manipulators by trade and, usually, cowards at a personal level. If we just said, "Fuck off or we'll kill you" they'd be gone. The second amendment is so critical! Note how they hate it and want to disarm us.

As far as keeping people in society under control, there is a balance need on that imperative as well. I think that few want to live in the Wild West. Yet, people must also be free to live and think and feel as they want to. Like I said, these are complex highly nuanced issues with lots of grey areas that are being addressed by people with all of the usual human flaws. To write it all off as "the Illuminati are out to get us" won't do. Sure there are Davos jerk-offs planning things. There are always Davos jerk-offs planning things; just as there are always anarchists throwing bombs and war lords warring, and pacifists calling for world peace and other utopians seeking a giant global commune and con artists conning and business people selling things and truth seekers seeking and experiencing angst because of all the other types doing what they do....nothing new under the sun.

I think the difference now, is that there has grown up a largely empty science that claims to know a lot more than it really does. Computer modelling makes it a lot worse because models are utterly opaque - there is no reasoning that can be followed, and no way to check what the model spews out.

This means for example, that the likely spread of the virus in the absence of lockdowns, the value of masks, the risks of picking up the virus from a park bench, are all decided by a small group of obsessive people with very little real-world judgement or common sense.

Such people may never even realise that infections play a part in the death of people who are utterly compromised by whatever is really killing them - they operate in a bubble created out of their computer models. Dr. Kendrick likes to say, "there is no such thing as saving a life because we all die, the best you can do is give them more time". That might sound like pure pedantry until you see the magnitude of the goof not realising it has lead us into. A person with terminal cancer cannot be 'saved' by anything short of a miracle, but nurses who know better are being forced into pretending they should try. I'll bet some patients are actually put on a ventilator to keep them going until they can die of cancer a day or two later! Even then they will be recorded as COVID deaths!

Computer modeling lets people pretend to predict/control/understand all sorts of things - climates - the spread of a virus in a population that is consciously trying to limit the spread - the evolution of the galaxy - the big bang, etc etc. Nowadays the output can be presented in a very persuasive way, but that just makes them worse.

David
 
I think the difference now, is that there has grown up a largely empty science that claims to know a lot more than it really does. Computer modelling makes it a lot worse because models are utterly opaque - there is no reasoning that can be followed, and no way to check what the model spews out.

This means for example, that the likely spread of the virus in the absence of lockdowns, the value of masks, the risks of picking up the virus from a park bench, are all decided by a small group of obsessive people with very little real-world judgement or common sense.

Such people may never even realise that infections play a part in the death of people who are utterly compromised by whatever is really killing them - they operate in a bubble created out of their computer models. Dr. Kendrick likes to say, "there is no such thing as saving a life because we all die, the best you can do is give them more time". That might sound like pure pedantry until you see the magnitude of the goof not realising it has lead us into. A person with terminal cancer cannot be 'saved' by anything short of a miracle, but nurses who know better are being forced into pretending they should try. I'll bet some patients are actually put on a ventilator to keep them going until they can die of cancer a day or two later! Even then they will be recorded as COVID deaths!

Computer modeling lets people pretend to predict/control/understand all sorts of things - climates - the spread of a virus in a population that is consciously trying to limit the spread - the evolution of the galaxy - the big bang, etc etc. Nowadays the output can be presented in a very persuasive way, but that just makes them worse.

David

I won't argue with any of that David. The mis-use of computer models is rampant. The scene has come to resemble some kind of sorcery, in the bad and fake sense of the term.

That said, science has always claimed to know more than it does, as has religion and all other ruling bodies. Then again, the guy with grease under his nails that you meet at the pub also thinks he's a genius and will tell you the answers to all the problems of the world. He gets smarter with every beer.

People are the same as they have always been and they are the same at all levels of society.

I think you (and Alex and others) want something you can never have. Let's assume a Bell Curve distribution for human characteristics. I know that some things fall into other distribution forms, but let's assume a Bell Curve for ease of discussion. Intelligence - you have only a small percent of the population that is truly gifted. Ethics - you have only a small percent of the population is truly ethical. Logical thinking - A small percent of the population deploys logical thinking consistently and well. Wisdom - only a small percent of the population is wise.

What is the overlap of the positive 3 standard deviations sections of the curves (intelligence, ethics, logical, wise)? We're down to only a tiny percent of the population. A very rare person embodies all of the characteristics. By far fewer than the total number of scientists and politicians out there. So, by default, based on the pool from which scientists and politicians can be chosen from, there are going to be a lot of less than smart, ethical, logical and wise people filling the open positions in the scientific and political communities.

That is, of course, true in any profession. Just it's more of a problem in science and politics. If a ditch digger is not smart, it doesn't matter as long as he digs the ditch where he's told to. He can even be a terribly unethical person, but, as far as his work goes, he's either digging the ditch correctly or not and anyone can observe which is the case. Don't dig the ditch right and he's fired. Otherwise, he can keep his lack of ethics out of the work place and in his personal life. Science and politics however are much more challenging to know if the lack of ethics has spilled over into the work place.

If you don't grasp these concepts, then I suppose it does make some sense explain all the messed up situations you see as being the result of conspiracies. Conspiracies assume a higher level of logical thinking, intelligence, dedication, wisdom and even ethics ( a twisted form, like fealty to the conspiracy) than 99.8% of people can muster.
 
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I won't argue with any of that David. The mis-use of computer models is rampant. The scene has come to resemble some kind of sorcery, in the bad and fake sense of the term.

That said, science has always claimed to know more than it does, as has religion and all other ruling bodies. Then again, the guy with grease under his nails that you meet at the pub also thinks he's a genius and will tell you the answers to all the problems of the world. He gets smarter with every beer.

People are the same as they have always been and they are the same at all levels of society.

I think you (and Alex and others) want something you can never have. Let's assume a Bell Curve distribution for human characteristics. I know that some things fall into other distribution forms, but let's assume a Bell Curve for ease of discussion. Intelligence - you have only a small percent of the population that is truly gifted. Ethics - you have only a small percent of the population is truly ethical. Logical thinking - A small percent of the population deploys logical thinking consistently and well. Wisdom - only a small percent of the population is wise.

What is the overlap of the positive 3 standard deviations sections of the curves (intelligence, ethics, logical, wise)? We're down to only a tiny percent of the population. A very rare person embodies all of the characteristics. By far fewer than the total number of scientists and politicians out there. So, by default, based on the pool from which scientists and politicians can be chosen from, there are going to be a lot of less than smart, ethical, logical and wise people filling the open positions in the scientific and political communities.

That is, of course, true in any profession. Just it's more of a problem in science and politics. If a ditch digger is not smart, it doesn't matter as long as he digs the ditch where he's told to. He can even be a terribly unethical person, but, as far as his work goes, he's either digging the ditch correctly or not and anyone can observe which is the case. Don't dig the ditch right and he's fired. Otherwise, he can keep his lack of ethics out of the work place and in his personal life. Science and politics however are much more challenging to know if the lack of ethics has spilled over into the work place.

If you don't grasp these concepts, then I suppose it does make some sense explain all the messed up situations you see as being the result of conspiracies. Conspiracies assume a higher level of logical thinking, intelligence, dedication, wisdom and even ethics ( a twisted form, like fealty to the conspiracy) than 99.8% of people can muster.
I have come round to thinking that a government composed of randomly selected members of a society might do better than anything we have at the moment. The 'ordinary man or woman' displays a level of common sense that is destroyed by higher education. That doesn't mean that higher education is useless, but I don't think it helps people to govern well.

David
 

Good article. Elites burning through public trust that took decades to build will have very bad consequences for society.

" Thanks to a large email dump, from an account used by Anthony Fauci, we know that he was warned in early March 2020 that PCR testing was giving inaccurate results. As a result, almost all the data we thought we had now lives under a cloud. If testing is wrong, so too could be death data and so on. It’s a mess of confusion.

The same email dump revealed that a US delegation went to China in mid-February to learn from the best in the politics and arts of locking down a society. "

Sidenote; I took the author of that article Jeffery Tucker out to dinner one time back when I was a Libertarian. He's hella fun, but drinks a bit too much.
 
Good article. Elites burning through public trust that took decades to build will have very bad consequences for society.

" Thanks to a large email dump, from an account used by Anthony Fauci, we know that he was warned in early March 2020 that PCR testing was giving inaccurate results. As a result, almost all the data we thought we had now lives under a cloud. If testing is wrong, so too could be death data and so on. It’s a mess of confusion."

Well that's all BS. I took the time to read through the email dump (what the heck, I was icing my foot anyways). The actual research data referenced showed 100% specificity with the PCR testing and no false positives against a multitude of other coronaviruses and other respiratory viruses. It also showed that you could get false-positive tests if you screwed with the test conditions, like changing the pH with foreign substances (sound familiar)? Which, of course, would have nothing to do with PCR amplification cycles, anyways. The research also focussed on the bigger problem of potentially inadequate sensitivity, showing the effects of changing the level of detection and the number of cycles - neither of which changed the specificity.

The only message (Subject: Extremely sensitive, no false-positive tests needed for SARS-CoV-2) which references false-positives was a statement "It was been widely reported in the social media [bolding mine] that the RT-qPCR test kits used to detect SARS-CoV2 RNA [the original name of COVID-19] in human specimens are generating many false positive results and are not sensitive enough to detect some real positive cases, especially during convalescence. In the attached letter, I propose..." There's some redacted stuff, then "Without a reliable laboratory diagnostic test, we are flying blind."


I would guess that the main concern expressed in the email (from the director of a diagnostic laboratory) was about the sensitivity. Wouldn't it be important to mention (in the interests of intelligent discussion on science) that the email dump included research, which didn't show false-positives, and that the mention of "many false-positive results" came from unverified claims about social media stories?
 
The youtube video on post #44 did start on the relevant time stamp, but here's one that goes a bit further back by a minute.

"So you're saying that the change is a cultural thing..."
"Oh no. Oh no. Oh no."
As I said, he didn't agree with Alex that it was JUST a cultural thing.
Sorry for the length of time, but I usually don't have time to go back and review things I know that I'm right about.
 
I have come round to thinking that a government composed of randomly selected members of a society might do better than anything we have at the moment. The 'ordinary man or woman' displays a level of common sense that is destroyed by higher education. That doesn't mean that higher education is useless, but I don't think it helps people to govern well.

David
Sure. One of my favorite movies is Dave. Really plays to the pollyanna in me. Everyday guy who runs a small, local, boutique employment agency is a look alike for the current POTUS who's a complete moral fraud. The powers that be attempt to use the lookalike to perpetuate the control of power after the real POTUS falls into a coma after a stroke (and ultimately dies) but the everyman (the lookalike) breaks ranks and takes moral action from the Oval Office, cleans out the bad actors, and ultimately fakes his "death" so that the Vice President (who started out as a shoe salesman) can ascend to the throne.

It was pure Hollywood (i.e., fantasy) but it played to my sensibilities.

In reality, I suspect, that if we took the random cross-section you suggest we would end up largely in the same place. Back to Eric's really great posts in this thread: Its just the human condition.
 
Sure. One of my favorite movies is Dave. Really plays to the pollyanna in me. Everyday guy who runs a small, local, boutique employment agency is a look alike for the current POTUS who's a complete moral fraud. The powers that be attempt to use the lookalike to perpetuate the control of power after the real POTUS falls into a coma after a stroke (and ultimately dies) but the everyman (the lookalike) breaks ranks and takes moral action from the Oval Office, cleans out the bad actors, and ultimately fakes his "death" so that the Vice President (who started out as a shoe salesman) can ascend to the throne.

It was pure Hollywood (i.e., fantasy) but it played to my sensibilities.

In reality, I suspect, that if we took the random cross-section you suggest we would end up largely in the same place. Back to Eric's really great posts in this thread: Its just the human condition.

Exactly.

I am not a believer in the working class hero. I've seen too much to romanticize that.

And why would one of the few ethical, smart, wise, rational people in the world want to be subjected to daily attacks and smears of their character by politicians and the media? Who needs that?
 
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