Dr. Eben Alexander, NDE Science Wins Out |504|

I am aware of the many anecdotal claims out there. People here might not recognize who I am, but I cohosted another well known paranormal podcast for a couple of years and have several thousand posts on that site. I do my homework.

One of the first things I learned when examining NDEs is that there is a huge difference between clinical death and brain death, and the criteria range from jurisdiction to jurisdiction. In many cases brain death was simply assumed rather than tested. I know for a fact that it is rarely ( if ever ) actually measured with full spectrum EEGs during operations, because doing so requires special equipment and procedures that are expensive and not necessary. The other thing is that our audio perception is one of the last things to fail before brain death, so a person can appear to be clinically dead and still receiving audio input.

Another facet to consider is that prior to these operations, most patients ( unless they are victims of some unexpected emergency ) have made plans to have the operation done, and been to the hospital for several pre-screening and preparatory meetings. They are then assigned to rooms and are immersed in the hospital environment. From there their minds pick-up all sorts of cues and memories that are stored in the subconscious. By combining these variables with unconsciously acquired audio input, a mistakenly assumed to be be dead brain will naturally start to subconsciously filter it all into something that makes sense.

Our dream worlds are often fully 3D photorealistic places. I have had dreams so real I thought I was awake until I actually woke up and realized it was all a dream. The human brain is amazingly powerful. So combine all these things with the uncertainty about what the actual circumstances were in an uncontrolled situation relayed through hearsay and it's entirely plausible that these amazing stories aren't as reliable as the believers want them to be. That being said, like the article says, people still have the "experience", and I do believe many are completely sincere. Certainly not all are fabrications, just like not all UFO cases are fabrications.

The bottom line is that something unexplained is going on, and we don't know what it is, but some critical thinking skills combined with the best available evidence eliminates afterlives ( as most people have come to think of them ). That is not to say that it isn't possible that some "version" of a person might not pick-up in another realm where the one in this realm has left-off. That is possible. But at the same time that "version" is at best only a copy. It is not "you". It can't be, because the "you" in this realm is either in the morgue, a coffin, or reduced to ashes in some urn.
I take the position that Dr. Jeffrey Long, if I'm remembering correctly, points out: a number of ppl have commented that over a long period of studying NDEs, like himself, they lost any fear of death. This is a common attitude of those who have actually had them. Yet, not all do. This strange lack of uniformity is the mystery that the Creator includes in practically everything. It's even there in reincarnation studies. Since so many of the children who tell of their past lives died violently, abruptly, w/o warning, are we to assume only a harsh end enables you to recall past live(s)? Also, males more commonly recall a past existence, but is that only related to men being more commonly involved in dangerous, risky behavior? Many of the children reincarnate relatively close to where they lived in the past & time between incarnations appears dependent on cultural factors, like a strong belief in rebirth. Like so much investigation, scientific or otherwise, the more you learn, the more questions there are.
I haven't gotten into evidential mediumship, but here again is a great source of healing for untold numbers of ppl whether it's believed or not by many others. The All One has given us many ways of relieving our suffering if we try to do so. I find it hard to stomach that falsehoods heal while the truth doesn't. The truth shall set you free is a very simple, powerful expression of that. Ultimately, how you feel in re: to information of any kind & its effect on how you behave is your best guide.
 
This will remain a tennis match in terms of volleying balls over the net at one another.

For what its worth, I am absolutely not trying to change your mind. As I stated in my opening response, I fully appreciate your perspective and the conclusions you've drawn.

My only point is that statements like what I quoted above are simply NOT objectively scientific in at least a holistic sense. Science has not proven NDE's to be artifacts of the brain. Science has not disproven the notion of afterlife. Depending on one's perspective the proverbial "best evidence" may suggest these things, but no more. Hence, I use the nomenclature of a promissory note when folks assert these things as fact.

I really don't get why either "side" feels the need to be factually correct on something we simply do not fully understand. Seems a tad irrational to me.
Since the NDE is a non local event the idea that we can have a physical evidence as tasked by materalism to prove something is real may not be possable. We could say it's not real here. We wouldn't expect other systems of reality to translate materially in those terms here, because there two distict systems, different rules.
In materialistic sense it may not be provable, artifacts, DNA.
Either we believe the mind transcends or not. No arguments will prevail.
 
Since the NDE is a non local event the idea that we can have a physical evidence as tasked by materalism to prove something is real may not be possable. We could say it's not real here. We wouldn't expect other systems of reality to translate materially in those terms here, because there two distict systems, different rules.
In materialistic sense it may not be provable, artifacts, DNA.
Either we believe the mind transcends or not. No arguments will prevail.
Exactly.
If we truly believe the NDE'er when they say "while my body was dead I saw, went, felt, was with, talked to, etc.. ", why would we assume the their out of body experience is even happening within our Realm Of Consciousness?

Then here's the tricky part for which I haven't yet received a decent answer on this forum:

When does the experience first get received/translated by the NDEer's mind?
I believe this is the most important question which will lead us to understand how much translation is happening! Isn't that the most important question in regard to our search for "evidence"?

Even if 99.99% of the stories say "love, light, forgiveness, family figures, etc" what evidence do we have that this isn't being translated upon awakening?

What is a "sad song" except an organization of vibrations which leads various people to experience similarly?

I'm not asking these questions to refute the non-locality. Rather, I think we're not focusing on the part which I assume would be the only place where actual evidence might be found which is the moment/point of bodily receiving/translation of the experience. ..cuz i think we can all agree it's not happening to the dead body.


(Note: This is not intended to refute the unexplainable ability of the temporarily dead people to explain seeing things in other places while dead.)
 
Last edited:
Since the NDE is a non local event the idea that we can have a physical evidence as tasked by materalism to prove something is real may not be possable. We could say it's not real here. We wouldn't expect other systems of reality to translate materially in those terms here, because there two distict systems, different rules.
In materialistic sense it may not be provable, artifacts, DNA.
Either we believe the mind transcends or not. No arguments will prevail.
Exactly! What is said over & over by mystics & NDErs is that there is no need to prove it. The materialists have a pitifully truncated arena to occupy & they're welcome to it. They pair up so often w/ the arrogant & power trip members of society so we are pressured to deny our personal experience unless there's 'proof.' I was dumfounded long ago when my uncle of an atheistic bent got angry about some ppl being 'favored by god.' Psychics, mediums, NDErs shouldn't be having these experiences since not everyone has them, right? The Absolute Awareness should treat all of his creations to an equal measure of grace. Spiritual equal opportunity endowment?
 
Exactly.
If we truly believe the NDE'er when they say "while my body was dead I saw, went, felt, was with, talked to, etc.. ", why would we assume the their out of body experience is even happening within our Realm Of Consciousness?

Then here's the tricky part for which I haven't yet received a decent answer on this forum:

When does the experience first get received/translated by the NDEer's mind?
I believe this is the most important question which will lead us to understand how much translation is happening! Isn't that the most important question in regard to our search for "evidence"?

Even if 99.99% of the stories say "love, light, forgiveness, family figures, etc" what evidence do we have that this isn't being translated upon awakening?

What is a "sad song" except an organization of vibrations which leads various people to experience similarly?

I'm not asking these questions to refute the non-locality. Rather, I think we're not focusing on the part which I assume would be the only place where actual evidence might be found which is the moment/point of bodily receiving/translation of the experience. ..cuz i think we can all agree it's not happening to the dead body.


(Note: This is not intended to refute the unexplainable ability of the temporarily dead people to explain seeing things in other places while dead.)
How about a very short NDE? This is where the psi abilities really get sticky. After breaking 4 of my neck & upper back vertebrae in a boating accident, I was lying in the bottom of a boat w/ the sun shining bright yellow through my eyelids. Suddenly, I felt frozen in place & the light became this almost intolerable white, like my eyelids were being held open in front of an extremely intense light. I became aware of three entities to my right & then I was told non-verbally, "Go back, You're going to be fine." Just as suddenly, I saw butter-yellow light again & that sensation of being pinned down vanished. When I questioned my friends later about that period in the boat, they said they were watching me & talking, when my eyes rolled up into my head. "Oh, shit!" one of them said, but maybe 30 seconds later, my eyes dropped back down again.
What was most interesting about that was I learned later that a commonly reported experience of severely injured ppl is that 3 'angels' or beings of light were around a table or surface where they were healed, comforted, or some similar activity was performed before they 'came back,' revived, or whatever. A little girl drew a picture of three figures standing around her during her NDE. My doctor who I saw once at a rehab unit flatly told me, "Mr. Collie, you should be dead or paralyzed."
 
How about a very short NDE? This is where the psi abilities really get sticky. After breaking 4 of my neck & upper back vertebrae in a boating accident, I was lying in the bottom of a boat w/ the sun shining bright yellow through my eyelids. Suddenly, I felt frozen in place & the light became this almost intolerable white, like my eyelids were being held open in front of an extremely intense light. I became aware of three entities to my right & then I was told non-verbally, "Go back, You're going to be fine." Just as suddenly, I saw butter-yellow light again & that sensation of being pinned down vanished. When I questioned my friends later about that period in the boat, they said they were watching me & talking, when my eyes rolled up into my head. "Oh, shit!" one of them said, but maybe 30 seconds later, my eyes dropped back down again.
What was most interesting about that was I learned later that a commonly reported experience of severely injured ppl is that 3 'angels' or beings of light were around a table or surface where they were healed, comforted, or some similar activity was performed before they 'came back,' revived, or whatever. A little girl drew a picture of three figures standing around her during her NDE. My doctor who I saw once at a rehab unit flatly told me, "Mr. Collie, you should be dead or paralyzed."
Here's a couple trick questions:
-What were those 3 beings doing before you showed up?
-Were they busy and you interrupted them?
-What are the odds that your astral form finds beings without even having to look around a bit?
-Are these beings stewards? gate keepers?
-Do these beings sit around waiting for people to give astral directions to? Or do they just show up when people need directions?

I think the answer to all these questions would be found if either or both of these were true:
1. If time doesn't exist on the other side the way it does here, but instead places-in-time are just Places.,
2. If the reporting we do about the beings and experiences is indescribably ridiculous extrapolation about something that couldn't make sense in human words.... but because we don't encounter the ineffable in life, we probably translate them mentally before we even know a translation has happened.
I'm not going to pretend i have any clue. I just feel strongly that this inquiry is missing in most of the NDE conversations
 
Here's a couple trick questions:
-What were those 3 beings doing before you showed up?
-Were they busy and you interrupted them?
-What are the odds that your astral form finds beings without even having to look around a bit?
-Are these beings stewards? gate keepers?
-Do these beings sit around waiting for people to give astral directions to? Or do they just show up when people need directions?

I think the answer to all these questions would be found if either or both of these were true:
1. If time doesn't exist on the other side the way it does here, but instead places-in-time are just Places.,
2. If the reporting we do about the beings and experiences is indescribably ridiculous extrapolation about something that couldn't make sense in human words.... but because we don't encounter the ineffable in life, we probably translate them mentally before we even know a translation has happened.
I'm not going to pretend i have any clue. I just feel strongly that this inquiry is missing in most of the NDE conversations
Just as you said, I claim no expertise other than experience & some years of reading NDE science & other psi lit. I like Dr. Alberto Villoldo's analogy of the particle & the wave. When you shift from a particle to a wave, the particle's limitations of time, distance, space, & so forth are irrelevant. The All One just IS. So questions about where, when, who & so forth are a waste of time. The medium lit & channeled information from ascended masters & discarnate beings are full of descriptions of entities tasked w/ helping recently physically traumatized & deceased souls. I have to agree that a lot of that is putting the wave experience into particle terms.
Gene Ang has some interesting things to say about Arcturian transmissions & their helpful intent. He's quick to point out that their aid is given very slowly b/c of the potential for badly frightening humans. Sherry Mosley is another of these New Age/higher dimension mediums. I watched one of her videos & she spoke at length in some language I couldn't place as earth-based, but I'm not a linguistic expert either. It wasn't babbling in tongues BS, though.
We're living in a very chaotic period of change in many areas, so I'm hoping to see even more amazing advances in spiritual awareness & openness as predicted. You might find this New Thinking Allowed series interesting. I'd never heard of a person's physical appearance being similar to their previous one, but it makes sense since 'birth marks' or scars from previous life injuries are a fact.
At any rate,
 
I take the position that Dr. Jeffrey Long, if I'm remembering correctly, points out: a number of ppl have commented that over a long period of studying NDEs, like himself, they lost any fear of death. This is a common attitude of those who have actually had them. Yet, not all do. This strange lack of uniformity is the mystery that the Creator includes in practically everything. It's even there in reincarnation studies. Since so many of the children who tell of their past lives died violently, abruptly, w/o warning, are we to assume only a harsh end enables you to recall past live(s)? Also, males more commonly recall a past existence, but is that only related to men being more commonly involved in dangerous, risky behavior? Many of the children reincarnate relatively close to where they lived in the past & time between incarnations appears dependent on cultural factors, like a strong belief in rebirth. Like so much investigation, scientific or otherwise, the more you learn, the more questions there are.
I haven't gotten into evidential mediumship, but here again is a great source of healing for untold numbers of ppl whether it's believed or not by many others. The All One has given us many ways of relieving our suffering if we try to do so. I find it hard to stomach that falsehoods heal while the truth doesn't. The truth shall set you free is a very simple, powerful expression of that. Ultimately, how you feel in re: to information of any kind & its effect on how you behave is your best guide.
In response to J. Randall Murphy, first off, let me tell you that I have had 36 podcasts, own ten yachts, and have impregnated more women than Genghis Khan. Also, I own a 24 foot long reticulated python as a kitty cat, and my dog is 450 lb Komodo Dragon. Just for fun, I juggle 3 land mines and have a reincarnated Muamar Gaddafi for the purpose of occasionally tossing 3 Molotov cocktails into the sequence, just to make things a little more interesting. On my own time, I contact Neurosurgeons during procedure to help them navigate through dendrites with the ease of Ferdinand Magellan through a 1519 Katrina, and by the time I am done, the hurricane happily marries me. That being said, I am a compassionate man....a man of reservation, and would never brag about a thing!
 
In response to J. Randall Murphy, first off, let me tell you that I have had 36 podcasts, own ten yachts, and have impregnated more women than Genghis Khan. Also, I own a 24 foot long reticulated python as a kitty cat, and my dog is 450 lb Komodo Dragon. Just for fun, I juggle 3 land mines and have a reincarnated Muamar Gaddafi for the purpose of occasionally tossing 3 Molotov cocktails into the sequence, just to make things a little more interesting. On my own time, I contact Neurosurgeons during procedure to help them navigate through dendrites with the ease of Ferdinand Magellan through a 1519 Katrina, and by the time I am done, the hurricane happily marries me. That being said, I am a compassionate man....a man of reservation, and would never brag about a thing!
I love you Shane
 
My only point is that statements like what I quoted above are simply NOT objectively scientific in at least a holistic sense. Science has not proven NDE's to be artifacts of the brain. Science has not disproven the notion of afterlife. Depending on one's perspective the proverbial "best evidence" may suggest these things, but no more. Hence, I use the nomenclature of a promissory note when folks assert these things as fact.

I really don't get why either "side" feels the need to be factually correct on something we simply do not fully understand. Seems a tad irrational to me.
I don't have a position on any of this beyond where we are now with the evidence (and my idea of evidence isn't anecdotes) one way or the other. But I am immediately suspicious about any ideas which are so profoundly self-serving as an immortal afterlife or that consciousness is fundamental. The discussion Alex had with Eben was so saccharin it made my teeth hurt. That's probably my only promissory note - I'm deeply suspicious of the idea the universe just happens to correspond to narcissistic humanism.
 
Last edited:
What sickens me and riddles me are these jokes that think they know what is the fiddle of death that they can't comprehend without digressing into a half ass compression of all that happens on the other side, they just bullshit and guess. If they actually struggled in life beside what they fiddle with science. Half ass. Drop the accolades and live a day in my life on the side of almost and abyss. Walk a few miles in a bit of snow or be forgotten in the heat as they wish for a miracle, as I sleep in a vehicle and wander if I am smart or worthless. Looking for a way to wash in a parking lot at a Walmart. Not that I need to level about scripture let alone the middle of almost let alone on the west coast or the heart of America. A secret of normal or a blessing of NIMH.
 
Top