Dr. Jeffrey Long, Near-Death Experience By the Numbers |502|

#21
Great stuff, Alex, thanks a lot. Jeff has stated that there is no judgemental God in NDEs. I I would like to add a couple of NDE's I found on Russian language sites that I find troublesome and very, very judgemental.
1)
This is one of the most interesting NDE’s I’ve seen, not because of the experience itself, but but because of the extraordinary qualities and biography of the experiencer. Coronel of the Russian airforce Alexander Zhukov served in an airborne rescue unit, parachuting into difficult terrain in war zones to rescue civilians or military in distress. When he was serving in the Northern Caucasus region during the Chechen war in the 90’s, he was captured by the islamist guerilla. The only reason he was spared the customary beheading was the Russian army coronel ID in his pocket: the guerrilla leader hoped to exchange him for his brother, captured by Russian forces. He was treated like an animal, beaten constantly, interrogated, pressured to convert to islam. He never revealed any information, nor did he convert. After a few months of hell, he tried to escape and was shot multiple times. Luckily, he was found by the Russian patrol, bleeding, comatose, on the brink of death. In the hospital he was operated numerous times. During one operation he suffered cardiac arrest, during which he had an NDE.
He found himself in a tunnel, lit by a sort of blueish light, through which other souls, whom, curiously, he called “shells”, were moving toward a huge hall, where a thunderous voice was saying “TO HEAVEN!”, or “TO HELL!”. Alexandr understood that it was God’s judgement and got scared: “where is that I’m going to go?”. When his turn came, the Voice said “to reserve!” (curiously military term). There were three tunnels out of this hall, one to heaven, another to hell, and another to “reserve”. While he was going through this tunnel, various mutilated, ugly entities were trying to grab him. After that, he came to in his hospital bed.
Since then, he, miraculously, rejoined his unit and continued rescuing people, performing over 1.500 parachute jumps. For his heroism he was named “Hero of Russia”, the most honorable decoration in the country.
His NDE is interesting in the sense other Russian NDE’s are: I find most of them very influenced by their religious beliefs. What confuses me is that this is a highly skilled, trained, intelligent military man, still, his NDE seems to be an idiosyncratic interpretation of what seems to be an ineffable experience, impossible to accurately interpret from human perspective.
I thought this would be curious to the forum members.




2) Absolutely horrifying, nightmarish Russian NDE with visions of eternal hell. It's the second Russian NDE of that nature I've seen. She is describing various parts of hell where the sinners are tortured eternally for different sins. I haven't herd an NDE this horrible from Western experiencers. Is this cultural, religion-based idiosyncrasy? If it is, why those affect our perception of the afterlife?

She was driving on a highway and had a frontal collision with another car. She was driven to a hospital where she had a cardiac arrest and pronounced dead. She found herself floating above her body seeing the doctors pronouncing her dead. Then she was pulled into a grey tunnel, which she describes as a very unpleasant experience. On the other end she sees a tall man with horrifying eyes who tried to grab her. Another man shows up and gets between them. The "man with terrible eyes" disappears. To make the story short, the "saviour" takes her to all these hellish places where he tell her who suffers for which sin. After all this, she was sucked back into her body in the hospital.
I thought that her perceptions was affected by her religious beliefs: She claims that her "guide", some sort of a divine entity, was describing to her the "sinners" and their "punishment!". She also comes upon a group of children, an is informed that they were aborted. She asked whether she was gonna be punished for her abortions (in the USSR abortions were like a sort of a pass time, women used to have numerous abortions in their life time). Her "guides" didn't respond to that question.
The only explanation that occurs to me is that this person was reinterpreting something ineffable and well beyond her comprehension that happened to her through the prism of her religious beliefs. With the passage of time she added more and more details to this experience, which took place in 1982, and converted it into something entirely different and terrifying. Even from the Orthodox Christian standpoint, it's aberrant: at some point the supposed angelical entity (or even Christ Himself, it's not clear from her description) who's guiding her on her trip to hell tells her: "don't feel sorry for them, they are sinners". The Church says "we love the sinner, we hate the sin". Meaning, not to feel compassion toward the sinner is completely non-Christian. Then, another aberrant detail. Her guides tell her that there is no way out of hell, with one exception: "some sinner's family members can get them out of hell through constant prayer for their soul" So, basically, if you have an intercessor, you have a chance, if not, no. You have no free will, no influence over your own destiny, nothing. And her "experience" is filled with the nonsense like that. And it's the second one of this nature I hear from Russian experiencers. Weird stuff....
Assuming that these reports were cherry-picked but not actually altered to make them consistent with the Russian Orthodox Church, I think they should be taken seriously, not interpreted away because they are inconvenient. As I see it, that is a game materialist play - we should not ape them.

I am inclined to think that interface between this reality and the next is probably more complex than is usually assumed. I mean, maybe the major religions can set up an outpost over there, and send their own spirits to work with the newly arrived.

David
 
#22
Assuming that these reports were cherry-picked but not actually altered to make them consistent with the Russian Orthodox Church, I think they should be taken seriously, not interpreted away because they are inconvenient. As I see it, that is a game materialist play - we should not ape them.

I am inclined to think that interface between this reality and the next is probably more complex than is usually assumed. I mean, maybe the major religions can set up an outpost over there, and send their own spirits to work with the newly arrived.

David
And if that is the case, do we know who are the grifters and who are the good guys? :D

I'd like to see more research (if it is even possible) on this aspect.
 
#23
Assuming that these reports were cherry-picked but not actually altered to make them consistent with the Russian Orthodox Church, I think they should be taken seriously, not interpreted away because they are inconvenient. As I see it, that is a game materialist play - we should not ape them.

I am inclined to think that interface between this reality and the next is probably more complex than is usually assumed. I mean, maybe the major religions can set up an outpost over there, and send their own spirits to work with the newly arrived.

David
I'm starting to think that on the data level, the NDE experience might coming from a place so-very-unrelated to time/space/matter, that the process of translating it into human experience/story is like taking a beautiful wedding cake and smashing and mixing it into a pile of goop, and then having to explain the cake from the pile of goop... hence the story will always form to the perspective of the experiencer. Kind of the way the zodiac sign stories are silly considering it's all a photograph taken from a single perspective: planet earth, one of a gazillion potential planets from which to create the same type of stories.
 

Alex

Administrator
#24
I'd like to see more research (if it is even possible) on this aspect.
It sure seems possible. even the the new paper in near-death studies that doctor long mentioned is a starting point... although it seems like a pretty tame one. how about we start cross correlating this data with data from the social sciences.
 
#25
Jives with what I've gleaned from other similar focuses.
And psychedelic experience.
And Robert Monroe and the Monroe Institute. Which is a good avenue to explore if you're not wanting to TRIP OUT, man!
Good talk!
Fear of death is THE BIGGEST control factor of this entire system of entrapment. And the other baggage that goes along with it...
All of the reincarnating retards...
 
#26
Jives with what I've gleaned from other similar focuses.
And psychedelic experience.
And Robert Monroe and the Monroe Institute. Which is a good avenue to explore if you're not wanting to TRIP OUT, man!
Good talk!
Fear of death is THE BIGGEST control factor of this entire system of entrapment. And the other baggage that goes along with it...
All of the reincarnating retards...
Correct mostly on reincarnation , but you can't say %100 is not real , but its probably on very shaky grounds; most historic stories on this can be faked easy or use say the power of suggestion on kids and then add on as the hoax goes forward possibly . Yo!!! and someday you might get a huge book deal :) With that said, I'm heavily agnostic about it but lean toward not!

Same with UFO's , yea I think most likely there're alien beings in the universe much more intelligent then us and some not as intelligent as us humans. I do believe the Roswell incident was a crashed UFO , and what we been seeing on the news lately with the Navy footage of these crafts are in fact technology from that, but its actually Top Secret Black-Book USA hardware you are seeing and being showed off in a strange manner not anything alien . Remember the SR71 etc …… the same was said about that and the U2 back in the day. The military IMO is showing it off to our rivals in a way ,and the great conspiracy is that everyone is in on it , pretending it could be a UFO . but could be too!
 
#27
I believe in life after death , NDE's and all of that, most of the religious stuff is just experienced through your culture though. With that said, anything like this ever happened someway or reported: You have person who had a NDE and they experience all the typical "Hoopla " assisted with it however like in a lucid dream they realize they're having a NDE in real time and communicate with these spiritual beings, in like have a deep conversation ,or a serious interview, like Dan Rather would in some form or fashion , and somehow prove what is said to them is real , or maybe …. they ask the spirit being to materialize as a ghost or something like at a future date and time and they get a snap shot on film of it , if it agreed too, hypothetically or something like that. Oh , now that would make a great movie too :)

It seems in these NDE's there's no control or serious conversation say telepathically. Its like you just submit to your fate. There's no "wait a sec here, "what are you doing to me and why" "Who the fuck are you" Where did you come from" Why am I being judged for being a typical fucked up sinner human type who did good and tried to better myself." Its like they go to some kangaroo court of the absurd in spirit world in some way and are powerless to defend themselves.
 
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#28
I
Correct mostly on reincarnation , but you can't say %100 is not real , but its probably on very shaky grounds; most historic stories on this can be faked easy or use say the power of suggestion on kids and then add on as the hoax goes forward possibly . Yo!!! and someday you might get a huge book deal :) With that said, I'm heavily agnostic about it but lean toward not!

Same with UFO's , yea I think most likely there're alien beings in the universe much more intelligent then us and some not as intelligent as us humans. I do believe the Roswell incident was a crashed UFO , and what we been seeing on the news lately with the Navy footage of these crafts are in fact technology from that, but its actually Top Secret Black-Book USA hardware you are seeing and being showed off in a strange manner not anything alien . Remember the SR71 etc …… the same was said about that and the U2 back in the day. The military IMO is showing it off to our rivals in a way ,and the great conspiracy is that everyone is in on it , pretending it could be a UFO . but could be too!
I LOOVED the SR-71. It was the X-Men's aircraft, after all.
But Lockheed Martin and Skunkworks definitely had some shady boostings.
Reincarnation mostly what a being building a soul needs to learn. Half-ass and twisted through most major sources. Peeps addicted and trapped, and in our current short lifetimes, not enough to LEARN it. We used to live a lot longer.
HONESTLY?! I couldn't imagine living hundreds of years in today's paradigm. REALLY.
So, that RR comment is to beings either addicted to pleasure and pain in this reality, or lamenting and regretting what they didn't do or accomplish.
There are MANY MANSIONS, eh?
You, being the big "C", how do you account for the missing years? Of The C? It's a heavy cross to bear.
Lucky for me, I was labeled and saddled with that in this existence and representation. The name in this incarnation is CHRISTOPHER. Pleased to make your acquaintance.
P.s. he's a heavy little bastard, isn't he?
 
#29
I believe in life after death , NDE's and all of that, most of the religious stuff is just experienced through your culture though. With that said, anything like this ever happened someway or reported: You have person who had a NDE and they experience all the typical "Hoopla " assisted with it however like in a lucid dream they realize they're having a NDE in real time and communicate with these spiritual beings, in like have a deep conversation ,or a serious interview, like Dan Rather would in some form or fashion , and somehow prove what is said to them is real , or maybe …. they ask the spirit being to materialize as a ghost or something like at a future date and time and they get a snap shot on film of it , if it agreed too, hypothetically or something like that. Oh , now that would make a great movie too :)

It seems in these NDE's there's no control or serious conversation say telepathically. Its like you just submit to your fate. There's no "wait a sec here, "what are you doing to me and why" "Who the fuck are you" Where did you come from" Why am I being judged for being a typical fucked up sinner human type who did good and tried to better myself." Its like they go to some kangaroo court of the absurd in spirit world in some way and are powerless to defend themselves.
The sad and obvious part, is you (Self) get to judge your self (self). Get it?
 
#30
I

I LOOVED the SR-71. It was the X-Men's aircraft, after all.
But Lockheed Martin and Skunkworks definitely had some shady boostings.
Reincarnation mostly what a being building a soul needs to learn. Half-ass and twisted through most major sources. Peeps addicted and trapped, and in our current short lifetimes, not enough to LEARN it. We used to live a lot longer.
HONESTLY?! I couldn't imagine living hundreds of years in today's paradigm. REALLY.
So, that RR comment is to beings either addicted to pleasure and pain in this reality, or lamenting and regretting what they didn't do or accomplish.
There are MANY MANSIONS, eh?
You, being the big "C", how do you account for the missing years? Of The C? It's a heavy cross to bear.
Lucky for me, I was labeled and saddled with that in this existence and representation. The name in this incarnation is CHRISTOPHER. Pleased to make your acquaintance.
P.s. he's a heavy little bastard, isn't he?
Have to text the Vatican on that one.
 
#31
Great stuff, Alex, thanks a lot. Jeff has stated that there is no judgemental God in NDEs. I I would like to add a couple of NDE's I found on Russian language sites that I find troublesome and very, very judgemental.
1)
This is one of the most interesting NDE’s I’ve seen, not because of the experience itself, but but because of the extraordinary qualities and biography of the experiencer. Coronel of the Russian airforce Alexander Zhukov served in an airborne rescue unit, parachuting into difficult terrain in war zones to rescue civilians or military in distress. When he was serving in the Northern Caucasus region during the Chechen war in the 90’s, he was captured by the islamist guerilla. The only reason he was spared the customary beheading was the Russian army coronel ID in his pocket: the guerrilla leader hoped to exchange him for his brother, captured by Russian forces. He was treated like an animal, beaten constantly, interrogated, pressured to convert to islam. He never revealed any information, nor did he convert. After a few months of hell, he tried to escape and was shot multiple times. Luckily, he was found by the Russian patrol, bleeding, comatose, on the brink of death. In the hospital he was operated numerous times. During one operation he suffered cardiac arrest, during which he had an NDE.
He found himself in a tunnel, lit by a sort of blueish light, through which other souls, whom, curiously, he called “shells”, were moving toward a huge hall, where a thunderous voice was saying “TO HEAVEN!”, or “TO HELL!”. Alexandr understood that it was God’s judgement and got scared: “where is that I’m going to go?”. When his turn came, the Voice said “to reserve!” (curiously military term). There were three tunnels out of this hall, one to heaven, another to hell, and another to “reserve”. While he was going through this tunnel, various mutilated, ugly entities were trying to grab him. After that, he came to in his hospital bed.
Since then, he, miraculously, rejoined his unit and continued rescuing people, performing over 1.500 parachute jumps. For his heroism he was named “Hero of Russia”, the most honorable decoration in the country.
His NDE is interesting in the sense other Russian NDE’s are: I find most of them very influenced by their religious beliefs. What confuses me is that this is a highly skilled, trained, intelligent military man, still, his NDE seems to be an idiosyncratic interpretation of what seems to be an ineffable experience, impossible to accurately interpret from human perspective.
I thought this would be curious to the forum members.



2) Absolutely horrifying, nightmarish Russian NDE with visions of eternal hell. It's the second Russian NDE of that nature I've seen. She is describing various parts of hell where the sinners are tortured eternally for different sins. I haven't herd an NDE this horrible from Western experiencers. Is this cultural, religion-based idiosyncrasy? If it is, why those affect our perception of the afterlife?


She was driving on a highway and had a frontal collision with another car. She was driven to a hospital where she had a cardiac arrest and pronounced dead. She found herself floating above her body seeing the doctors pronouncing her dead. Then she was pulled into a grey tunnel, which she describes as a very unpleasant experience. On the other end she sees a tall man with horrifying eyes who tried to grab her. Another man shows up and gets between them. The "man with terrible eyes" disappears. To make the story short, the "saviour" takes her to all these hellish places where he tell her who suffers for which sin. After all this, she was sucked back into her body in the hospital.
I thought that her perceptions was affected by her religious beliefs: She claims that her "guide", some sort of a divine entity, was describing to her the "sinners" and their "punishment!". She also comes upon a group of children, an is informed that they were aborted. She asked whether she was gonna be punished for her abortions (in the USSR abortions were like a sort of a pass time, women used to have numerous abortions in their life time). Her "guides" didn't respond to that question.
The only explanation that occurs to me is that this person was reinterpreting something ineffable and well beyond her comprehension that happened to her through the prism of her religious beliefs. With the passage of time she added more and more details to this experience, which took place in 1982, and converted it into something entirely different and terrifying. Even from the Orthodox Christian standpoint, it's aberrant: at some point the supposed angelical entity (or even Christ Himself, it's not clear from her description) who's guiding her on her trip to hell tells her: "don't feel sorry for them, they are sinners". The Church says "we love the sinner, we hate the sin". Meaning, not to feel compassion toward the sinner is completely non-Christian. Then, another aberrant detail. Her guides tell her that there is no way out of hell, with one exception: "some sinner's family members can get them out of hell through constant prayer for their soul" So, basically, if you have an intercessor, you have a chance, if not, no. You have no free will, no influence over your own destiny, nothing. And her "experience" is filled with the nonsense like that. And it's the second one of this nature I hear from Russian experiencers. Weird stuff....
I know they made it all up ! Or had a very bad hangover from to much Vodka and thought it up.
 
#33
Have to text the Vatican on that one.
Like I was saying most UFO's - if not all- are from our Top Secret air craft or something atmospheric in nature. That's it! When they announce
on TV the US Government has the bodies from Roswell or from a wreck, which I believe they do, then that's a different ball game. And so what if they do, who cares, would you think otherwise; plus they look so small . We could just get them addicted to porn , Cell phones ,and the NFL, and we shall control them!
 
#34
Like I was saying most UFO's - if not all- are from our Top Secret air craft or something atmospheric in nature. That's it! When they announce
on TV the US Government has the bodies from Roswell or from a wreck, which I believe they do, then that's a different ball game. And so what if they do, who cares, would you think otherwise; plus they look so small . We could just get them addicted to porn , Cell phones ,and the NFL, and we shall control them!
Might all hearken back to old Atlantis.
 
#36
Like I was saying most UFO's - if not all- are from our Top Secret air craft or something atmospheric in nature. That's it! When they announce
on TV the US Government has the bodies from Roswell or from a wreck, which I believe they do, then that's a different ball game. And so what if they do, who cares, would you think otherwise; plus they look so small . We could just get them addicted to porn , Cell phones ,and the NFL, and we shall control them!
Most plausible UFO explanation:

1. Gov finds abandoned technology, attempt reverse eng. (mostly fail)
2. Gov stuff a couple human-hybrid experiments inside it and drop it in Roswell.
3. Gov take notes on how much societal control up for grabs in event of ET contact.

Least plausible UFO explanation:

1. ET capable of interstellar travel crashes.
 
#37
Self as in "higher" Self, oversoul, guardian or archangel (arc), connection to God, purpose, source code, reason for being, raison d'etre, ETCETERA. Fulfilling your mission.

"Higher Self" and "oversoul" are mere theoretical or religious concepts. Fortunately, there isn't any evidence that such things exist. As Rivas, Dirven and Smit argue in The Self Does Not Die, there is no need for such concepts, because NDEs are personal experiences and the self that experiences the NDE is the NDEr's normal everyday self.
 
#38
Most plausible UFO explanation:

1. Gov finds abandoned technology, attempt reverse eng. (mostly fail)
2. Gov stuff a couple human-hybrid experiments inside it and drop it in Roswell.
3. Gov take notes on how much societal control up for grabs in event of ET contact.

Least plausible UFO explanation:

1. ET capable of interstellar travel crashes.
I would say number one reason is for military advantage
 
#39
Self as in "higher" Self, oversoul, guardian or archangel (arc), connection to God, purpose, source code, reason for being, raison d'etre, ETCETERA. Fulfilling your mission.
Its doesn't make sense for some spiritual entity that's not human or never lived physically to judge you or IMO ; the only person who lived on earth that can claim that trophy is Jesus, so you think it was so nice living and surviving in the first century in the now middle east area? Just getting water that wouldn't kill you would be a enormous task, forget about if you were a female back then; you were treated like a dog. That's just for starters, matter of fact while I'm on this Jesus kick , he was the first to treat females as equals in spiritual matters and had them in his inner circle , so one for Jesus and the women's right movement! How did I go there ?
 
#40
"Higher Self" and "oversoul" are mere theoretical or religious concepts. Fortunately, there isn't any evidence that such things exist. As Rivas, Dirven and Smit argue in The Self Does Not Die, there is no need for such concepts, because NDEs are personal experiences and the self that experiences the NDE is the NDEr's normal everyday self.
Nope. Just have an expanded perspective when we're free of our bodies.
Some unique benefits being in the physical. Some limitations.
 
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