Dr. Rob Williams and Brandon Zollino, Freedom and Unity |557|

All too often skeptical counterpoint is overlooked or offhandedly dismissed by ufo enthusiasts. I don't do that. When I see a claim, the first thing I do is look to see if anyone has debunked it. Then I look at any counterpoint to that, and so on back and forth, until I arrive at the most reasonable perspective. I don't think Delong, or even many established ufologists bother to go to these lengths. On the UFOs and nukes issue, I'd suggest you start sifting through this:

UFOs at Nuclear Weapons Sites (Salas, Malmstrom, Eagle Flight) - Skeptical Resources

I appreciate your scepticism. I also actively look for counterpoints.
I haven't done a deep dive on the nuclear silo ufo reports before, but many people find them convincing. What makes me sceptical about the critique you linked to is this:

'A bright, glowing orange UFO is allegedly seen over the base by security men [likely Mars]'

Really?!
I think security men -- who had probably spent an inordinate amount of time looking up at the night sky during their uneventful nocturnal shifts -- would know very well what Mars looks like
 
Further:
'Recently, Salas had disclosed (Paul Kimball via Billy Cox?) that he had undergone hypnosis in the mid 1980s to help recall certain aspects of the incident, as well as claiming that he was abducted by aliens. I believe this further puts a stake in the heart of credibility in my opinion.'

Why?
 
And let's not forget (something that the critique you linked to Randall didn't mention), the SOVIETS said their ICBMs had been activated by ET... So it's not just one source claiming ET is messing with the ICBMs
 
As for the question "who benefits"?

I can see that those pushing the NWO agenda could use the fear of UFOs to move their global government agenda forward. I.e. there's a global UFO "threat", therefore we need a global solution / global government

On the other hand, the current human ruling class looks weak if they say that there are beings more powerful than them

Roughly said, what I think is happening is that there is genuinely ET visiting Earth -- flying around, mutilating cattle, abducting people, messing with militaries around the world. There's become so much pressure from witnesses because of this, and the Internet has enabled people to share this information more effectively. So genuinely interested celebrities and politicians have gotten on the bandwagon. And due to all this pressure, the deep state has decided to conceed that UFOs are real, but only to a very limited degree, and change their name to UAP, and emphasise a potential "threat" and the need for more funding
 
I get it but what exactly do you mean by distillation of meaningful memory.

There are practically an infinite number of details you could choose to describe your day, but we distill out of that endless series of events the ones that are relevant or meaningful to us. Creation through subtraction. Any artist does the same. This is an example of Patternism... out of an objective series of events you subjectively choose the boundaries that define the meaningful memory/story. Memory/narrative playing a key role in consciousness, what does ET choose to ignore/forget in order to distill out what is meaningful? What is meaningful to us is related to feelings/emotions and these are related to goals - what we want or don't want, what we want for someone else, or sometimes the feeling itself is the goal. E-motions and goals drive actions. ET takes actions, so it must have goals. ET inhabits a definite space and time so even if some part of it is one with the One who is One as is the case with us, there must also be a subtracting a forgetting a reduction for the infinite to become finite.

Great. this makes clear the distinction... and I don't even think we have to go so far as to say "god-like". in fact, that may be another subtle transhumanism talking point forcing itself into the conversation. I mean, does anyone really think ET is god?

They are only God in the sense that we are also God in that a component of us is one with the One which has fractured into many and forgotten and become finite in order to have all range of possible experiences and choices which require restrictions and limitations and structures in order to have those choices set up for us.

What does ET see/ experience in his/her nde?

That is a great focal point question which appeals to the nested nature of things. The feedback loop is an essential element of consciousness. The purpose of a feedback loop is to juxtapose goals with outcomes to improve performance at achieving the goal. The life review experienced in NDEs is a feedback loop. This implies a continuation in some form of that which spawned the life - the soul - and a retainment of knowledge/experience after death. To answer the question of what ET sees in its life review (assuming it dies) you would have to know the goals of the soul that spawned the instantiation of an ET life. ET exists as the attempt of some entity (ET Soul) to achieve a goal. The ET has goals or it could not act. Those goals haven't been accomplished yet or it could not act so it is temporally limited in some way. Temporal limitation implies death and forgetting. Limitations are an essential element of creation. If you play a game like Minecraft and turn the cheat codes on so that you get to keep all your stuff after you die and respawn then the game loses the challenge, your decisions made are altered by the lack of risk and lack of loss, and the game loses all the magic. What does ET lose if it dies? Does it have access to "Tree of Life Technology" that makes it *almost* immortal? Will we acquire similar tech soon?

Sometimes I think I'm figuring out the way the world works, but then I realize that I'm just seeing that things are the way they are because if they were different then they would be different... lol
 
And let's not forget (something that the critique you linked to Randall didn't mention), the SOVIETS said their ICBMs had been activated by ET... So it's not just one source claiming ET is messing with the ICBMs
Looking into the issue I discovered that the reason the incidents happened in the USA were due to a circuit board component failure. As a PC tech, I can tell you that electronic failures are common, and in those days the components weren't as robust as they are today. You don't need to invoke aliens for it to happen, and given the number of components in the overall arsenal, it's really not surprising at all that it happened. It's probably happened more times than we know.

An interesting difference between the Soviet and American designs in those days was that in the event of those kinds of failures, the American systems would go into an automatic shutdown. However the Soviets decided that if their men were incapacitated by an enemy attack, and the normal controls were damaged, that their nukes would go into an automatic retaliatory launch mode. After their incidents, they decided to change their protocols to match that of the Americans — a wise move.

These are all facets that tend to get overlooked by those who promote the UFOs and Nukes storyline — a storyline that has been revised several times, contradicted by other evidence, and based largely on hearsay. Does that mean no UFOs have ever been seen around military installations? Certainly not. Did they actually interfere with any of the base's systems? I don't know. Maybe. Maybe not. I'm less skeptical of the '52 DC sightings.
 
Alex, I'd be interested in your response to what Randall wrote about the reported nuclear missile silo incidents with UFOs
 
And due to all this pressure, the deep state has decided to conceed that UFOs are real, but only to a very limited degree, and change their name to UAP, and emphasise a potential "threat" and the need for more funding

I agree... we'll never know but this is what makes most sense to me
 
There are practically an infinite number of details you could choose to describe your day, but we distill out of that endless series of events the ones that are relevant or meaningful to us. Creation through subtraction. Any artist does the same. This is an example of Patternism... out of an objective series of events you subjectively choose the boundaries that define the meaningful memory/story. Memory/narrative playing a key role in consciousness, what does ET choose to ignore/forget in order to distill out what is meaningful? What is meaningful to us is related to feelings/emotions and these are related to goals - what we want or don't want, what we want for someone else, or sometimes the feeling itself is the goal. E-motions and goals drive actions. ET takes actions, so it must have goals. ET inhabits a definite space and time so even if some part of it is one with the One who is One as is the case with us, there must also be a subtracting a forgetting a reduction for the infinite to become finite.

brilliant! thx.




That is a great focal point question which appeals to the nested nature of things. The feedback loop is an essential element of consciousness. The purpose of a feedback loop is to juxtapose goals with outcomes to improve performance at achieving the goal. The life review experienced in NDEs is a feedback loop. This implies a continuation in some form of that which spawned the life - the soul - and a retainment of knowledge/experience after death. To answer the question of what ET sees in its life review (assuming it dies) you would have to know the goals of the soul that spawned the instantiation of an ET life. ET exists as the attempt of some entity (ET Soul) to achieve a goal. The ET has goals or it could not act. Those goals haven't been accomplished yet or it could not act so it is temporally limited in some way. Temporal limitation implies death and forgetting. Limitations are an essential element of creation. If you play a game like Minecraft and turn the cheat codes on so that you get to keep all your stuff after you die and respawn then the game loses the challenge, your decisions made are altered by the lack of risk and lack of loss, and the game loses all the magic. What does ET lose if it dies? Does it have access to "Tree of Life Technology" that makes it *almost* immortal? Will we acquire similar tech soon?

I'm not sure we can say that the life review process of an nde is a feedback loop in such a literal/ materialistic way.

again, I appreciate the caution that gregory shushan shows when pressed on the moral imperative question. I think we have to acknowledge not only that we don't know, but that there's a hell of a lot of contradictory information coming back.

And this isn't even incorporating in nelson's skepticism regarding the contamination of experiences and these extended realms :)
 
Alex, I'd be interested in your response to what Randall wrote about the reported nuclear missile silo incidents with UFOs

according to robert hastings ET turn on nuke's at US air force bases as well. many many different incidents... over many decades.

Hastings is top-notch. I've only scratched the surface of his work, but never found a chink in the armor
https://www.ufohastings.com/
 
Interesting to hear your appraisal. The "Battle of Los Angeles" during WWII also stands out for me
The DC '52 flap is IMO the best on record. Multiple witnesses, multiple radar station contacts, and radar/visual contacts from military pilots. The Battle of Los Angeles is less impressive, but still very interesting. With a few exceptions, the sightings from the Early Modern Era in Ufology are IMO the best evidence so far. Unlike then, contemporary sightings now all fall within the realm of possible terrestrial explanations. These days we'd need some kind of encounter case involving many witnesses combined with verifiable material evidence and video documentation. Even then, there would be skeptics who would claim it's some kind of hoax.
 
The DC '52 flap is IMO the best on record. Multiple witnesses, multiple radar station contacts, and radar/visual contacts from military pilots. The Battle of Los Angeles is less impressive, but still very interesting. With a few exceptions, the sightings from the Early Modern Era in Ufology are IMO the best evidence so far. Unlike then, contemporary sightings now all fall within the realm of possible terrestrial explanations. These days we'd need some kind of encounter case involving many witnesses combined with verifiable material evidence and video documentation. Even then, there would be skeptics who would claim it's some kind of hoax.

Thanks for your input!
 
That's because you're looking in the wrong places and/or seem to be unaware of, or overly dismissive of the skeptical counterpoint that's out there surrounding his claims.

I didn't find the link you gave critiquing the nuclear silo ufo report convincing though. What do you say to the critique I wrote of it above. Especially that the orange light was probably Mars.. I mean, come on!
 
Also serious science narrative on RationalWiki:
(Search: woman)
“Fetal personhood[edit]
See the main article on this topic: Personhood laws
Aside from all of these, there is a strand in the abortion debate over the status of zygoats zygotes as people. Personhood woo is the magical science that the religious right uses to "prove" that science understands human life to begin at conception, and that a human is a person, therefore a single cell is equally a person.”

This tier of sciencing reads like it’s written by someone who just finished being confused/offended that I asked for a side of ranch dressing.

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Person
I think I had one of those doubt experiences just last night. I have always considered privacy the biggest issue in the abortion issue. What a woman decides to do w/ her body's pregnant, diseased, raped, or otherwise altered state is no one else's business. Yet I was forced to look at the assumptions that abortion is stopping a potential human life.
Thomas Verny, M.D. & DPsych formed the Association of Pre & Peri-natal Psychology & Health. He's written a number of books such as The Secret Life of the Unborn Child & The Embodied Mind: Understanding the Mysteries of Cellular Memory, Consciousness, & Our Bodies. A superficial look at some of his work made me think that abortion has deeper issues I hadn't encountered. His research indicates that kids are aware from very early stages right down to the birth. Once I settled down a bit, I realized that this kind of thing didn't destroy free will & choice at all.
I have read of souls who have settled on a particular couple to serve as their parents in a new incarnation, only to be shocked when it is now unwanted due to disease or a traumatic end to a relationship. Ending a pregnancy for whatever reason simply delays a spirit's next adventure in a "suit." It's not a death sentence for a spirit, which is what the shallow & ignorant would have us believe.
Excellent discussion, BTW. I look forward to more level 3 conversations w/ them.
 
I didn't find the link you gave critiquing the nuclear silo ufo report convincing though. What do you say to the critique I wrote of it above. Especially that the orange light was probably Mars.. I mean, come on!

The issue with UFOs and nukes requires looking at more than just the one link I posted. There are numerous other links within the article, and numerous other articles beyond that, that show how the stories have changed over time and are based largely on hearsay. Plus the failures of the components can be explained by mundane causes. That doesn't prove aliens didn't do it. But concluding that aliens were the cause is jumping to a conclusion that IMO isn't warranted. What you and others want to believe is up to you.
 
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