Dr. Robert Davis, Consciousness Connection |563|

Ok I went ahead and dug something up... I posted it here with hopes that you will respond in that thread so we don't mix up the lines of thought:
https://www.skeptiko-forum.com/thre...es-lead-to-psychokinesis-548.4817/post-164672

But I'll repost it here:

J Randall Murphy said:
I checked-out some other Egely Wheel videos and it looks to me like the movement is simply due to air convection moving a small very low-friction wheel with vanes that catch the air like a mini-windmill. This device could work via the same principle even under glass. I couldn't find any examples of such a wheel used in an experiment where it's inside a vacuum.

Alex: Regarding why I may have skimmed some of your posts, I guess we could start here. the notion that trained professional scientists, who make it their living to study this kind of stuff, could make this kind of blunder seems very flat-earthy to me.

I remember that post. It was simply a response to what I found after checking-out the claim and a number of other Egely Wheel videos. The argument that "trained professional scientists, who make it their living to study this kind of stuff, could make this kind of blunder" also works both ways. If it's a real scientific thing, then why do so many other scientists say that there's insufficient evidence? Did they all bluder too?

Do I know the answer to psychokinesis? No. However, I do posit reasonable points for consideration, and offer alternative and possible explanations. If we as people who are interested in these sorts of phenomena fail to do that, then IMO we lose credibility. However, if collectively speaking, we recognize that we need to question our own assumptions and beliefs as much as anything else, it seems to me that it can only enhance our credibility.

That might ruffle some feathers, but to me it's not a popularity contest. However, I imagine that for some people it is. The more ratings, the more followers, the more believers, the more subscribers, and the better-off they are. I could care less. I've never been paid anything worth mentioning for participating in the paranormal, and popularity certainly isn't a motivation. As you can see, most of the time I get grief from both sides.

But the few who actually get what I'm about are the ones who make it worthwhile.
 
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Thanks. I think this is a really important topic... and I think it's more than philosophical musings. I get the sense that you're trying to connect the different data sets that we are bumping to do the paradigm.

That said, I lean more towards the " as below so above" and " there's plenty of room at the top" :) I'm not an evil person and I try not to do too many evil things, but I can't honestly say that the concept is foreign to me. I feel like I could be evil... worse yet, I look at some of the things that I've done... some of them are kind of evil. I think we're right in the middle of this... we're in the soup... we are co-creators of the hierarchy. less about rules.. more like "guidelines"
"as below so above". I finally get that. I thought you were just saying it backwards cuz I'd only heard it the other way. Now I can see it referencing two different paradigms when said either way.

Back to Free Will / Agency. Best to pitch this directly to you since you have A.I. expertise.

Take two automated androids (like Data from Star Trek but not yet having free will yet) and place them in an arena with limited activities, maybe a vehicle, some building materials, etc, and each one starts with an equal amount of materials and a small spot in the arena which is strictly individual property requiring permission to access eachothers.
Program (somehow) both androids to have free agency, however instruct them that they are not to interfere/impose/trespass with the free agency of the other android.
... It's impossible to know where the cutoff is in regard to interfering/trespassing. One could be whistling on the other side of the arena and the other could consider it interference.. So they will have to develop rules and laws.
.... And BAM, you have modern humans.

That view makes our human life seem very much like a training ground specifically designed for beings learning about free will / agency.
 
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That view makes our human life seem very much like a training ground specifically designed for beings learning about free will / agency.

Maybe that's why the aliens are studying us — Maybe they don't know if there is such a thing as "spirit" or "free will", but perhaps they think that by seeing how it develops in relatively primitive beings, that it will give them some clue — sort of like at the end of the movie AI. Humans are the "key" to the advanced AIs search for meaning.
 
I remember that post. It was simply a response to what I found after checking-out the claim and a number of other Egely Wheel videos. The argument that "trained professional scientists, who make it their living to study this kind of stuff, could make this kind of blunder" also works both ways. If it's a real scientific thing, then why do so many other scientists say that there's insufficient evidence? Did they all bluder too?

Do I know the answer to psychokinesis? No. However, I do posit reasonable points for consideration, and offer alternative and possible explanations. If we as people who are interested in these sorts of phenomena fail to do that, then IMO we lose credibility. However, if collectively speaking, we recognize that we need to question our own assumptions and beliefs as much as anything else, it seems to me that it can only enhance our credibility.

That might ruffle some feathers, but to me it's not a popularity contest. However, I imagine that for some people it is. The more ratings, the more followers, the more believers, the more subscribers, and the better-off they are. I could care less. I've never been paid anything worth mentioning for participating in the paranormal, and popularity certainly isn't a motivation. As you can see, most of the time I get grief from both sides.

But the few who actually get what I'm about are the ones who make it worthwhile.

this is a rehash of the "extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof" thing... which, if you think about it, is counter to the scientific method.

the whole thing is a rerun of the kind of unconvincing arguments we've heard from the skeptics for years... not that interesting.
 
this is a rehash of the "extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof" thing... which, if you think about it, is counter to the scientific method.
I've never claimed that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. In fact, I argued against it years ago on the old James Randi forum where I also endured no end of grief. Like I said — I seem to get it from both sides.
the whole thing is a rerun of the kind of unconvincing arguments we've heard from the skeptics for years ...
I guess that depends on what you mean by "the whole thing" — that's rather a lot to be tossing into one vaguely defined basket. I'm also not the one who invoked science as the standard of measure. That was you. All I did was point out that the argument you gave that was based on science as the authority goes both ways, but if it only works when it suits you, then what does that suggest?

Personally, I prefer the process of critical thinking, which is not entirely the same as the scientific method, but does apply logic and reason to the claims in question and the evidence at hand. The beauty of CT is that it's self-validating. By that, I mean that any information that can advance the process is considered by virtue of that advancement to be valid. So scientifically valid material evidence isn't the only evidence that counts.
... not that interesting.
That's okay. What does interest you? Why do you bother? Not everything has to be about whether or not it makes sense or yields an explanation. Is there anything you want to discuss?

There's always Afterlife - The Game
 
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All I did was point out that the argument you gave that was based on science as the authority goes both ways, but if it only works when it suits you, then what does that suggest?
A fundamental question IMO. Similarly, this question applies to the conspiracy element we've been delving into more recently (re: official accounts/narratives are sometimes accepted and sometimes not).
 
That's okay. What does interest you? Why do you bother? Not everything has to be about whether or not it makes sense or yields an explanation. Is there anything you want to discuss?

... and I think that's what started this discussion. I use the skeptiko forum to respond to stuff that I find interesting.
 
... and I think that's what started this discussion. I use the skeptiko forum to respond to stuff that I find interesting.
Well — I suppose we could carry-on with the Egely Wheel review that you brought-up, but that didn't go well. You offered no counterpoint to the content of my post or the accompanying video. Instead you made it about assuming that the scientific authority of the investigators ought not be questioned. Why not exactly? If it's not an analysis of the evidence and reasoning you find interesting, what is?

Is it just that you find joy in discussing these topics with fellow believers? That's perfectly understandable. I'm just not very content with that level of discussion. I like to explore areas of disagreement in an effort to determine whether or not I can evolve my thinking, or offer others a way to do the same. Not too surprisingly, the latter doesn't seem to go over well with some of the group here, who turn it into something personal.
 
Well — I suppose we could carry-on with the Egely Wheel review that you brought-up, but that didn't go well. You offered no counterpoint to the content of my post or the accompanying video.

this experiment seems easy to conduct/control... so I tend to give wieght to qualified scientists who say that this is what they've observed under controlled conditions.

But maybe I'm wrong... why don't you email some of the researchers involved with testing PK with an Egely wheel and tell us what you find.

BTW I'd be happy to interview one of them on Skeptiko
 
this experiment seems easy to conduct/control... so I tend to give wieght to qualified scientists who say that this is what they've observed under controlled conditions.
I don't think a person needs to be a "qualified scientist" to view and understand the video I posted that outlines the heat convection explanation.
But maybe I'm wrong...
I wouldn't say you're wrong. All sincere ideas and experiments deserve equally sincere consideration.
why don't you email some of the researchers involved with testing PK with an Egely wheel and tell us what you find.
So many things to do — so little time. I already spend too much on this as it is.
BTW I'd be happy to interview one of them on Skeptiko
If I happen to run across something that looks particularly promising, I'll certainly pass it along. I have a video somewhere from an old paranormal series that has a couple of really interesting clips on PK. Like most other phenomena, I don't doubt that people have had personal experiences that have led them to assume that PK is a product of the mind. Maybe it is ( I don't know ).

But there are still other possibilities, like covert third party intervention, and when it comes to the aliens, it seems to me that they could produce all these effects remotely and without detection of their presence. That might not be what's going on all the time, but I'd wager dollars to doughnuts that it's happening some of the time.

Of course I can't prove that's the case. I can't even prove aliens exist. But given that the various phenomena aren't all fabrications or explainable by some mundane process, of all the more exotic explanations, an alien influence seems to check the most boxes for what is possible given what we already know. Mind you, our own technology has come a long ways too, so after eliminating the mundane, some kind of psyop is probably the first logical go-to.
 
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So many things to do — so little time. I already spend too much on this as it is.

My warning bells are going off.

If you really believed what you're saying you would jump at this offer.

Why don't you take a couple hours off of posting and try to put together a PK interview.
 
My warning bells are going off.
I wouldn't worry — it's a false alarm.
If you really believed what you're saying ...
Any belief in what I said pertains to what I posted at the time, which includes evidence in the form of a person who does some independent experimenting on video. That's not bad for a person who freely contributes content here. It's certainly more evidence than your guest offered, who demonstrated nothing ( during the interview ).
... you would jump at this offer.
I do appreciate that you think me worthy of pitching the offer to.
Why don't you take a couple hours off of posting and try to put together a PK interview.
Why don't I take a couple hours off of posting? I find forum participation somewhat therapeutic, whereas I find doing guest coordinating more like work. You're probably aware that I did it over at The Paracast until I quit over differences on COVID mandates. When it comes to chores, I have about 14 other things higher on my priority list, and then I have my own creative projects on top of that.
 
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Randall, at this stage I'm not going to have another debate about placeholder terms again. Too time-consuming and was going around in circles, and in my view relatively unimportant, as I'm using the terms as placeholders. Similarly, I still tend to use the terms BC and AD even though I don't believe these terms are accurate descriptions of reality. They're still useful though

I don't think it is a pointless errand to define what constitutes a "higher level" of consciousness. When I hear talk of a hierarchy of consciousness no one really defines what that means or in relation to what environment. I do think there are hierarchies, but saying that there's a hierarchy of consciousness in the afterlife is about as explanatory and illuminating as saying there is a hierarchy of life on planet earth. Trying to understand all the hierarchies on earth is quite the task and you might be at the top of one hierarchy and the bottom of another depending on the criteria. The ET's in the UFO's might have ascended the technology tree and one branch of the consciousness hierarchy, but forgotten/lost some things that got them there... they could be the spoiled brat trust fund kids of the universe with nothing but first world problems on their hands.
 
I'm rather sceptical about hierarchies of consciousness. But if they exist, presumably the different levels are also dissociated aspects of MAL, albeit not in the same form as us. I suspect that many entities may be creations of the collective human psyche, and take different nominal apparent forms in different eras according to the level of societies at the time.

I don't know why he doesn't want children. I'm also not quite sure what you mean by "life-affirming."

Like I said, I think the philosophy he espouses offers the greatest explanatory power -- It's currently, IMHO, the best explanation of reality around. That said, I don't allow any differences of opinion (and I have several) outside his analytical idealism influence that. In that realm, like me, he's a less than perfect human being and in my view gets some things wrong. But he would probably think the same about me, and in the end who knows what's correct or incorrect? We're all influenced by personal and societal conditioning.

In any case, I think it illogical to let esteem issues get in the way of appreciating someone's genuinely valuable ideas. I daresay there are some good mathematicians who hold all sorts of opinions I'd find obnoxious outside mathematics. But if their maths stands up, they're still good mathematicians regardless.

Now that I'm in process of raising kids, I don't feel like I could fully trust anyone's philosophy that hasn't struggled through marriage and child rearing... Neither would I wouldn't trust a mechanic that's never driven a car or skinny cook.
 
. So in that context it's a waste of time

Case in point above with Alex's suggestion Randall get in contact with scientists for an interview. What a great opportunity that everyone here could benefit from. But instead of contributing value, Randall seems more interested in his "therapy" / arguing in circles
 
Now that I'm in process of raising kids, I don't feel like I could fully trust anyone's philosophy that hasn't struggled through marriage and child rearing... Neither would I wouldn't trust a mechanic that's never driven a car or skinny cook.
A skinny cook ( lol ) — that's funny.

BTW - don't worry yourself over @Nelson. Just let him gather his "data". Maybe it will be useful for him as part of a book project or something. In the meantime it's too bad he doesn't get what I'm about, because then we could apply that lens to the quest for data in a way that might result in some progress toward why we're bothering with the data in the first place.

I'm not a newbie at this, and after awhile you get to the point where another truckload of the same type of data doesn't advance your understanding of it. Maybe when he gets to that point himself, he'll realize that simply having data isn't enough. It's how you organize and interpret it that reveals its meaning — or at least gets you the next few steps along the path to that end.
 
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I agree. And to do that one should look at the data. But Randall typically shows up at the table empty-handed. So in that context it's a waste of time

I get frustration when someone just pokes and questions and tears down without doing an equivalent amount of productive building up (or supplying data). I didn't follow this thread enough to determine what the beef was... but I also seem to share Randall's frustration with the fuzzy ambiguous terms that people use as if they are primitive notions requiring no exposition.

What is the afterlife out of body hierarchy(ies)? Energy? If so that means there must be a shortage of energy on one end and a surplus on the other. Energy is capacity to do work. What work is being done? We've heard of energy vampires. Are they at the bottom? If so, what work do they wish to do that motivates them to suck up energy? What are their goals?

Maybe the hierarchy is around power... which is the speed at which work is done. So the more powerful the entity the more causal steps he can skip and manifest a fulfilled goal more quickly. Does doing so exhaust this being in some way? How is he replenished? Does he just store energy without acting?

Maybe the hierarchy is around goodness vs evilness... Our present understanding of good vs evil requires life/death, generational transitions of knowledge/resources, pair bonding, delicate young, struggle for survival, ability to hide and lie and deceive, symbolic representation, etc. In what way can the good/evil hierarchy exist when outside the body?

The point is we take for granted certain concepts and types of hierarchies without contemplating how dependent they are upon our particular environment/body and gradient of experience and perception.

The one I dislike most is "higher vs lower vibration"... this is so non-specific... is heaven full of screeching or burning UV and hell too much bass or infrared? I would really like a translation of what that is actually supposed to mean in that other realm. I think people generally mean that ones focus is on loftier more noble goals or love rather than more basic animal goals or selfishness.

I believe as below/above above/below so I think the hierarchies do exist, but I'm not clear on how or why they exist and I think mapping them out would be a worthwhile endeavor. Someone with the time should make a list of potential hierarchical organizing principles and look for evidence for and against them in NDEs and OBEs.
 
I believe as below/above above/below so I think the hierarchies do exist, but I'm not clear on how or why they exist and I think mapping them out would be a worthwhile endeavor. Someone with the time should make a list of potential hierarchical organizing principles and look for evidence for and against them in NDEs and OBEs.

I entirely agree
 
I get frustration when someone just pokes and questions and tears down without doing an equivalent amount of productive building up (or supplying data). I didn't follow this thread enough to determine what the beef was... but I also seem to share Randall's frustration with the fuzzy ambiguous terms that people use as if they are primitive notions requiring no exposition.

What is the afterlife out of body hierarchy(ies)? Energy? If so that means there must be a shortage of energy on one end and a surplus on the other. Energy is capacity to do work. What work is being done? We've heard of energy vampires. Are they at the bottom? If so, what work do they wish to do that motivates them to suck up energy? What are their goals?

Maybe the hierarchy is around power... which is the speed at which work is done. So the more powerful the entity the more causal steps he can skip and manifest a fulfilled goal more quickly. Does doing so exhaust this being in some way? How is he replenished? Does he just store energy without acting?

Maybe the hierarchy is around goodness vs evilness... Our present understanding of good vs evil requires life/death, generational transitions of knowledge/resources, pair bonding, delicate young, struggle for survival, ability to hide and lie and deceive, symbolic representation, etc. In what way can the good/evil hierarchy exist when outside the body?

The point is we take for granted certain concepts and types of hierarchies without contemplating how dependent they are upon our particular environment/body and gradient of experience and perception.

The one I dislike most is "higher vs lower vibration"... this is so non-specific... is heaven full of screeching or burning UV and hell too much bass or infrared? I would really like a translation of what that is actually supposed to mean in that other realm. I think people generally mean that ones focus is on loftier more noble goals or love rather than more basic animal goals or selfishness.

I believe as below/above above/below so I think the hierarchies do exist, but I'm not clear on how or why they exist and I think mapping them out would be a worthwhile endeavor. Someone with the time should make a list of potential hierarchical organizing principles and look for evidence for and against them in NDEs and OBEs.
Nice to see someone else here finds value in doing a little critical thinking !
 
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