Everything Doesn't Happen for a Reason

#42
OK. How about Alan Amsberg's Mike's bikes incident? Or the 11:11 phenomenon?
The Bikes Bikes tale is quite a nice one. 11:11 I'm less keen on, but that's my personal bias rather than a proper argument. Having said that, these things come in different flavours, for example the Mikes Bikes had a practical, real-world usefulness, which certainly doesn't disqualify it, but there are other examples (again, I don't have one readily to hand) which may simply seem puzzling, or might possibly carry some sort of message.
 
#43
The Bikes Bikes tale is quite a nice one.
Good, we've got something solid. Do you agree that the same set of options (re orchestration of what would otherwise have been free will choices, and excluding Obiwan's fourth option because we are assuming this is a genuine sync) applies in this case as in the "sync" that I made up and with which you weren't happy?

Happy though to drop this if it's becoming too argumentative.
 
#44
Good, we've got something solid. Do you agree that the same set of options (re orchestration of what would otherwise have been free will choices, and excluding Obiwan's fourth option because we are assuming this is a genuine sync) applies in this case as in the "sync" that I made up and with which you weren't happy?

Happy though to drop this if it's becoming too argumentative.
Well, we all have our ways of looking at the world. I don't think there's anything wrong with you looking at the world and coming to grips with it in the way which makes sense best to you.

On the other hand, as I remarked recently to David,
In my daily life I tend to be somewhat of a mystic, the way I grasp reality isn't easy to express. However my instinct is that it may be a rather different mode of experiencing the world to your own. That in itself can make any such discussion somewhat of a minefield of points which can be analysed and dissected without ever uncovering the intended meaning.
That's a direct quote from another thread where I replied on a completely different topic, as I said, to someone else. But it seems apposite here. I don't feel excited any more by the technical details, as a result, any replies I might give would be half-hearted at best. That doesn't mean I think there are no answers. I could give them, but it would simply lead to further questions...

All I really mean is, it may be up to other forum members to provide the sounding-board and lively exchanges on this topic.
 
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#45
OK, so now let's think about what has to have happened for this sync to have occurred. Either:

  1. You and your partner merrily planned your trip with free will intact and unimpinged, but "something" meddled with your neighbour-from-down-the-road's free will such that he made a series of (forced) "decisions" that led him to running into you on the way out of the church-on-the-other-side-of-the-globe.
  2. The reverse: your neighbour-from-down-the-road's free will is intact and unimpinged, but your (and your partner's) decision-making was interfered with (forced) such that you ended up running into your neighbour on the way out of that church.
  3. Both your neighbour's and you and your partner's decision-making was interfered with (forced - goodbye free will) to ensure that all three of you met on the church doorstep across the globe.
Well, I think an intact and unimpinged free will is a bit of a stretch... our will is always being affected by our experiences and environment. E.g. a sexy brochure for a vacation in a far and exotic country :)

Since the decision to take the trip is influnced by numerous factors (work schedule, money, personal preferences...) how can we absolutely exclude other "interferences"?
Maybe some of the parties involved in a synchronicity are simply nudged towards a certain outcome, without anything being forced on them. And the nudge may or may not work depending on what other factors are at play in everybody's decision making process.

I think it's a far more subtle issue than just an either/or proposition.

From a philosophical standpoint I don't see the problem with an invisible "nudging system", it could be part of an interconnected unconscious, that plays a role in certain decisions but it just competes with all the other variables at play without overriding them.

Makes sense?

I'll give you one real-life example that come to mind. When I was younger my grandma had a really bad house accident. Something caught fire in her kitchen and while she was trying to put it out she caught fire as well and ended up unconscious on the floor with severe injuries. At the time she was living alone, so no one could help her.

That very morning my father decided to go and check up on her, almost immediately after the accident. Later he told me he had a "strange feeling" that something was wrong with her and that it felt so weird that he postponed a few work appointments and headed straight to her house.

Coincidence? Maybe, but my father didn't really thought so. He clearly had an uneasy feeling that morning and felt the urge to check up on her mother. Is this a violation of "free will"?
I don't think it is. There are variables at play, each with its weight:

- it was Monday morning and there was work to do
- he had already visited grandma during the two previous days
- he had a strong impression that something was wrong with his mother

Maybe if the uneasy feeling had been less strong my dad might have called her on the phone, or he might have just set it aside and went to work.

It seems to me that telepathy of this kind could play a role in synchronicities by adding new variables to the decision making process, but without overriding our agency.

Cheers
 
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#46
Totally. I agree that my binary either/or proposition is a bit... well, unnuanced... and I'm very on board with your idea of "nudges" that don't override our agency, but which we are free to respond to or not. A Christian might describe this as following the inner voice of God.

Very glad you chimed in!
 

Brian_the_bard

Lost Pilgrim
Member
#47
I'm with the author 100%. Anyone who disagrees obviously hasn't experienced real pain for decades on and seeing no end in sight. You experience some minor temporary problems in life and think you've "learned" from the process, you have no idea what true pain is like.
Agreed. It's like being really depressed and somebody telling you to think of those less fortunate than yourself. It sounds very moral but it just doesn't work because it doesn't solve your problems. It's usually just some "moral" that has been copied without thought like saying "suicide is selfish" My friend whose brother had committed suicide was told this once in a shop when I was with her. I couldn't believe it - I was so angry!!!
 
#50
Not to bring this thread down but I had just recently read, from a local news source, that a father/husband lost his entire family when they all (expecting mother, 6 year old, 4 year old, and 1 year old) died in a car crash. Did that happen for a reason?
 
#51
Not to bring this thread down but I had just recently read, from a local news source, that a father/husband lost his entire family when they all (expecting mother, 6 year old, 4 year old, and 1 year old) died in a car crash. Did that happen for a reason?
I think it might have, if it didn't then I'm probably barking up the wrong tree being in this forum. It's harsh, no doubt, but if you have certain worldviews, it may not be as quite as harsh as it appears.
 
#52
I think it might have, if it didn't then I'm probably barking up the wrong tree being in this forum. It's harsh, no doubt, but if you have certain worldviews, it may not be as quite as harsh as it appears.
Steve, haven't we been through this before? I can (and have) show(ed) you harrowing stories of sadistic torture. What are the victims "learning" (because if "education" isn't the reason, then I have no idea what is) from being locked up and raped+tortured for decades at a time by sadists?
 
#53
I think it might have, if it didn't then I'm probably barking up the wrong tree being in this forum. It's harsh, no doubt, but if you have certain worldviews, it may not be as quite as harsh as it appears.
I usually support the idea that everything happens for a reason. However, when I hear tragic stories like that, it forces me to pause and rethink my position.
 
#54
Steve, haven't we been through this before? I can (and have) show(ed) you harrowing stories of sadistic torture. What are the victims "learning" (because if "education" isn't the reason, then I have no idea what is) from being locked up and raped+tortured for decades at a time by sadists?
I don't know Laird. I guess that your example is among many people's greatest fears, but I think that if something's imaginable, it might happen.

If we have been here before, it's unlikely to be so convincing in whatever way to make me change my worldview, as flimsy as it might appear to you. Saying 'I don't know' might seem like a cop out, but it's all I have in this case.
 
#55
I usually support the idea that everything happens for a reason. However, when I hear tragic stories like that, it forces me to pause and rethink my position.
I can certainly see why.

Despite saying that, the example you have given is far easier to cope with, in my opinion, than the horrors Laird describes.
 
S

Sciborg_S_Patel

#56
Telling someone who has lost a loved one to suicide. That it is a selfish act.
Strikes me as selfishness personified.
Doesn't it mean god is a failure then, to have created a person who could end up in such a terrible mental state they take their own life?
 
#58
I just went on Facebook after posting the above, to find two friends had posted these videos/comments.

One was....with the comment.... "Even atheists were convinced."


The other posted a video in Arabic with the comment:
God willing.


It made me think about my two posts above. I think God has little to do directly with things that go on on this plane. Free will must be for a reason, yet at the same time, it doesn't all appear to be earth driven.

But reading the Facebook posts I was struck by how much strife 'God' causes. Not really God, but man. God must have his head in his hands!
 
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