Grant Cameron, No Such Thing As Evil ET? |449|

Have you guys ever dug into contactees/abductees and the information and quests they are given by their messengers? Whatever the Aliens agenda is, frequently, they give people the strangest obsessions and impressions. Oftentimes people are given the impression that they are to save the world in some bizarre way. And they follow this belief and quest until their dying day, often with a level of unmatchable obsession. Contactees are often told the most bizarre and outrageous things. Sadly, I don’t really know that we can trust these “downloads.” People taking everything the ETs, or whatever conscious beings which are projecting info into their heads, say at face value and as the whole truth is a really sloppy mistake given what we know about the deceptive nature of our messengers.

It seems when people have NDEs, they are (generally) given strong moral lessons and gain all sorts of wisdom which one can take at face value as probably true given the self evident nature of the message. I think roughly the exact opposite can be said of UFO contactees. They are driven to start strange cults and go on bizarre quests and develop the strangest ideas. I don’t trust these downloads at all. That doesn’t mean that there isn’t some truth in some of them, or that some of them aren’t all true, I just think it’s impossible to take at face and to know what to make of it. When people have these experiences, given these entities abilities to manipulate our consciousness in powerful ways, I think people might fall under the impression that the power of these messengers is obviously so great, that they must know what they’re talking about.

But what do we know about UFOs? Deception deception deception deception. Jacque Vallee wrote a book on the phenomenon called, “Messengers of Deception.” And it’s not just a nice sounding title. It echoes a key truth of the phenomenon. They’re full of shit!
 
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Is any body here familiar with A Course in Miracles? I've been in a spiritual quest for almost 15 years and I've studied pretty much every major Religion or Spirituality I could. ACIM is the most consistent spirituality I've found and basically states that all of "our" reality is just a projection of the ego and therefore is madness! I was always obsessed with understanding reality and what it all means...now it's not something I worry about too much bc why am I going to stress out about something that doesn't make sense or even could? Our minds themselves are chaotic and hold contradictory beliefs and feelings every second it seems. Good and evil are both just projections of the ego. IMO, Oneness is our true nature and reality.
 
Wormwood,
I think they would have to "test" the spirits, as Jesus has said. If the message these contactees get is to love, then it is real. It sounds "faith based" and it is but you have to have faith in something, right? When gathering knew information, you have to have some foundational beliefs that guide you in weeding out the false ones.
 
Baccarat,
Interesting point. By adding yet another spin of "Jesus Freak ET's" could give one more attention, sell a few more books and get one interviewed, but agreed, it's just another B.S. add on.

I've been interested in UFOs since 1977 after my grandmother had a silver disc fly behind her car on a rural highway. There were two other witnesses. After many years of study, I have left that topic because it is a menagerie of disinformation, pseudo intellectuals, charlatans, shills and disturbed people that need medication. But at the end of the day, nothing comes of this. Nothing moves forward. Look at the movement that Steven Greer started. Nothing came of it. You can put up all the witnesses, all the government officials and nothing comes of it. Maybe I'm wrong?

On another note...
The discussions on consciousness are fascinating on Skeptiko. Alex, in my opinion, has ripped the lid off the dogma of atheism. I used to listen to Seth Andrews and John Loftus. Those interviews really exposed how closed minded that they really are. The Churchland interview was a trainwreck!

It makes me wonder if the answers lie elsewhere. Self improvement, diet, meditaion, yoga, calming our minds and developing our intuition the 6th sense which we've lost.

All be well,
Eugene
 
I am also always very wary of people who say they had some kind of special download or insight where everything all of a sudden made sense. Who is to say that all kinds of beings are not playing games with us, like tricksters, and that the real lesson for us is to get past all of the tricks and deceptions by sticking to paths that are harder and more difficult, with no magical downloads, just slowly accrued knowledge and progress.
Yes, I basically agree with that - I mean if all the downloads said the same thing, it might be different - but they don't.

I think the basic idea that people in the extended realm communicate telepathically (something that is reported very often) may be true, and that suggests that maybe people find it hard to hide their thoughts from others, but perhaps there are cliques up there that only communicate with other clique members - so they can setup a different value system. (I am using the word 'people' to mean conscious entities).
Wormwood,
I think they would have to "test" the spirits, as Jesus has said. If the message these contactees get is to love, then it is real. It sounds "faith based" and it is but you have to have faith in something, right? When gathering knew information, you have to have some foundational beliefs that guide you in weeding out the false ones.
Doesn't that test presuppose the answer? I mean what if the greater reality isn't kind and friendly?

David
 
Baccarat,
Interesting point. By adding yet another spin of "Jesus Freak ET's" could give one more attention, sell a few more books and get one interviewed, but agreed, it's just another B.S. add on.

I've been interested in UFOs since 1977 after my grandmother had a silver disc fly behind her car on a rural highway. There were two other witnesses.
Wow - did she feel an consciousness effects? How far behind did she think the disk was, and how did the incident end?
After many years of study, I have left that topic because it is a menagerie of disinformation, pseudo intellectuals, charlatans, shills and disturbed people that need medication. But at the end of the day, nothing comes of this. Nothing moves forward. Look at the movement that Steven Greer started. Nothing came of it. You can put up all the witnesses, all the government officials and nothing comes of it. Maybe I'm wrong?
I don't exactly know what you mean by 'nothing moves forward', but if you mean that there is no change on the part of materialist scientists, I'd say that is not true.

Kristoff Koch famously accepted panpsychism after struggling with the nature of consciousness. I don't think parpsychism is a very productive idea and it has some problems (for example all electrons are supposed to be utterly identical in a special way, if they were different - e.g. thought different thoughts - then the whole of QM would break down!
On another note...
The discussions on consciousness are fascinating on Skeptiko. Alex, in my opinion, has ripped the lid off the dogma of atheism. I used to listen to Seth Andrews and John Loftus. Those interviews really exposed how closed minded that they really are. The Churchland interview was a trainwreck!
I agree - materialists do not come off well in Alex's interviews - usually because they haven't even read the evidence contrary to their beliefs!
It makes me wonder if the answers lie elsewhere. Self improvement, diet, meditaion, yoga, calming our minds and developing our intuition the 6th sense which we've lost.

All be well,
Eugene

Well following a practice like yoga may be valuable, but don't you need something like Skeptiko to try to make sense of it all?

David
 
David Bailey
Yes it does. That's the faith part. I don't want to accept that reality is not love, at base. Why and how would that be beneficial? If we are trapped here with no escape (the theory that reincarnation is a trap, for example) then why live?
 
I call B.S. on Grant. I question his authenticity when he invokes that the ET's talked about Jesus. Good grief.... just listen to the Skeptiko podcast with David Fitzgerald for starters. The evidence of such an individual is so weak, let alone the miracles that no one, and I mean no one, ever mentioned outside of the story book. Next.
couldn't resist reminiscing:
David Fitzgerald: Whether you’re talking about Islamic fundamentalists or Christian fundamentalists or Libertarian fundamentalists, they all have a lot of the same structures.

Alex Tsakiris: Well that’s because they’re all based on these cultish principles.

David Fitzgerald: Exactly.

Alex Tsakiris: … that’s the part that I feel like is often missing from the public discourse — it’s cultish folks. We understand how mind control works, we understand how different groups in our society are trying to manipulate other groups and some of those are in a religious kind of framework, some of them are outside of that and some of them are somewhere in between like Scientology, no one thinks Scientology is a “religion” religion, but clearly they’re pushing the same button in terms of cultish practices.

David Fitzgerald: Yes. It’s wrong, not even just because it’s correct or incorrect corresponding to reality but because of the way it defends itself, because of the way it perpetrates itself.

later…

Alex Tsakiris: “Consciousness is an illusion” is NOT true. It’s been falsified over and over again. That’s my gripe with atheists — it’s more dogma. It’s like, “No, I can’t let go of that idea because I’ve built all this other stuff on it,”

… So the Richard Dawkins’ “biological robot” stuff, I mean that’s bullshit. It’s just not true true, you know? So that’s my rub and I don’t understand why atheists aren’t more interested in trying to wrestle that to the ground, but… they’re just like, “No, no, no, it’s true, we can’t really touch that, let’s just move onto the next topic.”
 
Is any body here familiar with A Course in Miracles? I've been in a spiritual quest for almost 15 years and I've studied pretty much every major Religion or Spirituality I could. ACIM is the most consistent spirituality I've found and basically states that all of "our" reality is just a projection of the ego and therefore is madness! I was always obsessed with understanding reality and what it all means...now it's not something I worry about too much bc why am I going to stress out about something that doesn't make sense or even could? Our minds themselves are chaotic and hold contradictory beliefs and feelings every second it seems. Good and evil are both just projections of the ego. IMO, Oneness is our true nature and reality.
did you ever listen to this one (Robert is a major player in the ACM movement):
Robert Perry on the Science of Synchronicity ...
 
consider the possibility of 100s or 1,000s of different visitor groups each with as many agendas as we see on our planet.
It’s certainly possible. But it’s strange that they share the same “mess with them but don’t prove ourselves to them” philosophy. At least not on a mainstream level. None of them have made mass contact.
 
WoW! Grant and Alex could use a referee... or maybe, an interpreter!

All this stuff is easy to resolve (for me) because of three assumptions I hold in my set of primary assumptions

My answer to "who/what am I"

My Map

The pathway of Point of View.
 
I feel like a way to think about what Grant is saying that doesn't fall into dualism so easily is an idea of good and evil being like positive and negative polarities, or currents within this "One Thing", much like Bernardo Kastrup's ideas of individuated consciousness being like whirlpools in the greater stream of consciousness at large. I don't know why Alex doesn't see the similarity, or why he had to lock horns with Grant on this the way he did when there is so much overlap in their thinking, and even congruency.

I feel like Grant's points make sense in both a literal and philosophical sense, and lines up with what I know of many ancient religious and occult ideas of everything being consciousness, and emanating from the "One Thing". I feel like Alex argues the idea of good and evil being proof of separateness, but I feel like the existence of good and evil are the result of denying unity, and believing in our separation. Nondual thinking has an essential role with our experience of empathy, and is the core message of most spiritual practices, and is often the message brought back from extended consciousness realms. I feel like Grant's message of the Oneness is the message at the core of the Golden Rule. The idea of treating every face you see as a mirror reflection of your own is a sound spiritual philosophy, and seems to reflect reality if we accept the evidence. For me this is more proof that Grant is onto something. The idea of division and separation lead to the evil that is the primamateria for dual thinking of "us versus them", war, greed, all forms of abuse, jealously, and so many other ills of humanity that would not exist if we saw ourselves as ONE thing, and not many. It is the denial of our unity that creates evil, not the existence of evil being proof of our seperation.

I'm walking away from this episode not really knowing what Alex's objection ultimately is with Grant's message of the unity of all things, or even where he sees Grant's ideas not lining up with his own. I did thoroughly enjoy this talk though, mainly because it evoked a response from me, and brought up a lot of other ideas for me that weren't being talked about in the episode. I may be in the minority, but from my view, Grant's ideas check out, but also aren't as off base from Alex's as I feel like he may think.
 
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