He claims to have traveled outside his body to bring back art… and much more |297|

Ian Gordon

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I've had a few lucid dreams, but I am by no means an expert. In my experiences I realized I was dreaming and tried to "dream what I wanted to dream" and it worked to some extent. But I never felt it was anything other than fantasy like a daydream, a super-duper vivid realistic daydream, but fantasy nonetheless. I didn't think the lucid dreams were "real" in the same way I know a day dream is not real. It was something I created. So why do folks think lucid dreams are anything more than fantasy within one's skull. Why do folks think they produce reliable information about the afterlife?
Thanks for putting up this question, Jim; it was the same I had while listening to the podcast and trying to figure out Alex's byline of "Jurgen Ziewe used lucid dreaming to travel outside of his body".
This power of focus also allowed me to transform a lucid dream into an OBE, often simply by focusing on my hands or the ground in front of me. A lucid dream is basically a dream being fed with information from your personal subconscious field, which allows you to do anything you fancy. But I transformed the "dream" into a waking experience in an alternate reality which you then can no longer manipulate in the same way as you can a lucid dream. It is like waking up in bed in the morning, except in this case, waking from a lucid dream and entering an alternate non-physical reality, which is as solid and stable as physical reality.
Thanks Jurgen, that helps to explain the lucid dream-OBE connection.
After much experimenting and reading books such as those from Jurgen, I concluded that lucid dreaming (really any personal experience) isn't binary. It is comprised of infinite nuance. Especially early-on, the experience is rife with fantasy and various aspects of one's own being. And that with work, one can access more "rarefied" spaces that are inhabited by completely sentient and aware beings with something to offer and (amazingly) with lives of their own.
Thanks a lot for this JKMac. This helps me conceptualize the whole topic of lucid dreaming as potential access to extended consciousness vs. fantasy a bit more.
The other thing I noticed when coming out of a lucid dream into consensual OBE environment. People, who have just been part of my lucid dream, disappear the moment I become aware, but the environment may still be the same or the dream scenery simply dissolves as I fix my attention on the ground or on my hands. My personal impression is that LDs and OBEs are closely linked and may even have fluid borders or overlap, but LDs are largely subjectively generated, hence you have these God-like powers as it is all of your own making. You may be sitting next to a lucid dreamer and see none of this as he/she is totally working on his or her own wavelength.
This helps too! :)
 
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Below is taken from Jurgen's website: http://www.multidimensionalman.com/Multidimensional-Man/Do_you_believe_in_God.html

...
When she pressed me further to be more specific I confessed to her that I do not belief in God. How can I? There is simply no reason to belief in God when every atom in the universe is living proof of its reality. We only have to open our eyes to the fact that we exist every moment of the day to have this fact confirmed in the living present that surrounds us and so there is no room for belief. There is only consciousness. There is nothing outside it. If it helps you to call this presence God that is up to you. I prefer the word consciousness or awareness of the present, because that’s what it is in essence and it is less laden with meaning and prejudice. Every atom in this universe is at its essence consciousness. Every person you meet and speak to is consciousness and at heart intimately related to you. Everywhere you walk you walk on hallowed ground and everybody you speak to is a “divine” being in its most poetic sense.
...
I strongly agree with this but I also have a problem with it. The problem is that it makes God into a kind of "blob" or the "force" from Star Wars. Yet, to me there is evidence that God makes decisions and does act in the world so in my view God is a "person" sort of like you and me. One example of this: http://quakerphilosopher.blogspot.co.uk/2008/01/being-led-into-unknown.html Furthermore, God as a person is clearly separate and distinct from me. Everything (me and God) may be consciousness but there is a clear dividing line between mortal, fallible, ignorant and limited me and omnipotent and omniscient God.

Two questions for you:
- Do you believe that God can and does taken actions in the world?
- If you do, isn't "God" a better word then "consciousness".
 
I remain highly Skeptikal. I'm very glad Alex titled this show "claims to have…", because Jurgen seems to not be very deeply impacted by his experiences. i.e How has it effected his art? How has it changed his actions on earth besides meditating more? Has he really said anything new? Seems to me to be pretty close to what the Vedas said 4,000 years ago. And from his own back yard, he sounds like Rudolf Steiner for instance, who is still very popular in Germany.

From his comments here Jurgen seems to believe that ISIS is actually real and not a fabrication of the intelligence services. He seems to believe in man made global warming, another mostly hoax. He seems to believe in false memory syndrome promoted by the False Memory Syndrome Foundation which some say is also from intelligence and is used to hide its MK-Ultra cast-offs and pedophiles and is populated by super skeptics like accused pedophile James Randi.

When he mentioned Oculus Rift the alarm bells went off. No ideas on how to make life better on earth besides more entertainment? How about boycotting factory farms where millions of animals live in a constant state of torture? Or GMOs? Creating pesticide into every cell of a plant is not a good way to spend time in the physical realm is it? How about letting us know who really did 9-11? Didn't the angels tell him to DO anything besides meditate and reach for higher realms?

He's selling a lot of books. The spiritual world is rife with near universal fraud from the the time of the pharaohs who were worshipped as gods. Alex seems to believe Atwill when he says Christianity is a total fabrication. From the Mormons to Blavatsky and Scientology, A Course In Miracles, probably even Eckhart Tolle, etc.etc.

Great. The world is consciousness. I got that a long time ago. Now what? Sell books? Meditate? Escape? Be mindful, develop awareness. OK cool. Now what? Aren't we supposed to make the world a better place? Or is "better" a biased construct? Here's a quote, which sounds exactly like what the PTB would want intelligent sensitive peeps to do. Nothing. Or perhaps worry about their carbon footprint! Ha

"No, when you ask me to consider the next step, I would simply say there is no next step. To me there is only awareness of reality and responding to it without bias or prescribed formula."

I could go on and on.

I refuse the red pill and the green pill. I make my own pills.
 
I remain highly Skeptikal. I'm very glad Alex titled this show "claims to have…", because Jurgen seems to not be very deeply impacted by his experiences. i.e How has it effected his art? How has it changed his actions on earth besides meditating more? Has he really said anything new? Seems to me to be pretty close to what the Vedas said 4,000 years ago. And from his own back yard, he sounds like Rudolf Steiner for instance, who is still very popular in Germany.

From his comments here Jurgen seems to believe that ISIS is actually real and not a fabrication of the intelligence services. He seems to believe in man made global warming, another mostly hoax. He seems to believe in false memory syndrome promoted by the False Memory Syndrome Foundation which some say is also from intelligence and is used to hide its MK-Ultra cast-offs and pedophiles and is populated by super skeptics like accused pedophile James Randi.

When he mentioned Oculus Rift the alarm bells went off. No ideas on how to make life better on earth besides more entertainment? How about boycotting factory farms where millions of animals live in a constant state of torture? Or GMOs? Creating pesticide into every cell of a plant is not a good way to spend time in the physical realm is it? How about letting us know who really did 9-11? Didn't the angels tell him to DO anything besides meditate and reach for higher realms?

He's selling a lot of books. The spiritual world is rife with near universal fraud from the the time of the pharaohs who were worshipped as gods. Alex seems to believe Atwill when he says Christianity is a total fabrication. From the Mormons to Blavatsky and Scientology, A Course In Miracles, probably even Eckhart Tolle, etc.etc.

Great. The world is consciousness. I got that a long time ago. Now what? Sell books? Meditate? Escape? Be mindful, develop awareness. OK cool. Now what? Aren't we supposed to make the world a better place? Or is "better" a biased construct? Here's a quote, which sounds exactly like what the PTB would want intelligent sensitive peeps to do. Nothing. Or perhaps worry about their carbon footprint! Ha

"No, when you ask me to consider the next step, I would simply say there is no next step. To me there is only awareness of reality and responding to it without bias or prescribed formula."

I could go on and on.

I refuse the red pill and the green pill. I make my own pills.
Welcome, fellow partaker of alternative media.

I pretty much share your sentiments. It seems to me that the spiritual mythologies out there can be classified based by "serious" and "not serious". The serious version of spirituality encourages believers to see every action as enormously important. The greatest imperative is to love. There should be ambition to improve one's self and make the world a better place. The non-serious version of spirituality says, "take it easy! Your ambition is chasing after the wind. You have infinite incarnations to work this stuff out. You're really just here to see what it feels like to do what you're doing. There is no hierarchy or imperative to evolve." For example, I would classify Jurgen's perspective in the "not serious" box and the evangelical Christian perspective in the "very serious" box.

Also, it seems to me that the best and most successful spiritual traditions incorporate a balance both the serious and non-serious perspective. The serious perspective can increase the meaning and emotion of life. The non-serious perspective can increase the peace and sense of well being (provided that the individual has received enough discipline to not completely check out of life). Mystics often seem to grow out of serious religions or traditions and develop this not-so-serious philosophy of life. The seriousness earlier in life benefited them by supplying them with discipline and meaning which led them to the point where they find they can just let it all go. My understanding of Buddhism (based mostly on talks by Alan Watts) leads me to believe they have formulated this process by providing severe strict discipline which is meant to eventually result in a fully developed individual who can take life as light as a feather yet has the discipline not to jump off the deep end.

At any rate, I also struggle with attempting to balance the desire to change the world for the better while also letting go and realizing everything is the way it is to make things into an interesting story for us to experience.
 
thanks for responding Hrmaneter. I see you've been here awhile and I'm a newcomer. What you are saying is an ethical conundrum or metaphysical dilemma I guess. Seth said "if you feel like you should be doing something [about injustice] well then you better do something about it!" If you don't then don't.

Its not like activism makes you happy. It kind of keeps you in a negative mindset or challenges you to deepen your faith so you don't stay negative. There are so many contradictions here it's very hard to write about.

I am seeing outright fraud with Jurgen however. But how can I prove it?

I have had brief LD's and OBE's. I know telepathy exists and precognitive dreams exist. I deplore the haughtiness and limitations and dictatorship of materialist science while I communicate with you on a computer.. But maybe the psychic and soul realm is outside of science? Maybe science is only plausible with the material realm? it seems that way to me sometimes despite Rupert Sheldrake's genius...

Maybe we just need to establish that science has limits. Do we want to raise our children 'scientifically'? Paint or sing scientifically?

But on the other hand spiritual fraud is so easy when there can be no proof. So a healthy skepticism is paramount. But human consciousness needs and wants to believe, making fraud even easier.

The yin yang symbol kind of sums it up- even outright fraud always has some truth in it. Otherwise it wouldn't work of course. And pure hearted activism always contains it's opposite of negative consequences to some degree. Is all of life a paradox?

What's a man to do? Carry on stay strong. trust and develop intuition. And if you have the courage or the need- fight evil?

Spiritual power gives very little back materially it seems. See what happened to the Tibetans and the American Indians. Sheesh. And it breaks my heart and makes me cynical and hateful of a world I believe to be based on joy and beauty.

Can anybody spell Job or Jesus? Nothing can be pinned down.

My head is spinning from the contradictions. it's a world of extremes. Antinomy.

Kinda makes ya wanna just sit and meditate. or make art for art's sake. hee hee
peace!
 
Yes - this is the nub of it. I also have difficulty with the idea that the universe is perfect and all is unfolding how it is supposed to unfold here on earth. I'm sure that having lucid dreams is lots of fun but I struggle with the idea that this is what we are supposed to be doing.
 
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Hey everyone knew here so bare with me and the stupid and redundant questions. Been a long time lurker here for several years. Took some time off lurking here, but came back since this is the stuff that interests me and keeps pulling me back. It will be very interesting talking and discussing our view points with you guys, have a happy new year.

My first question, which has been pulling at my mind when reading some of the post on this thread is Do you think the afterlife would be boring? Or do you think the afterlife is the 4th dimension or their are more puzzles to solve in the 4th dimension to reach the 5th dimension? Or is the "afterlife" all that their is no more "solving" or "learning" how to reach higher dimensions of reality? I ask out of curiosity and quite frankly the Christian version of heaven is more terrifying then complete nothingness. I would be pretty bored living for eternity doing the same thing over and over again, that would be like torture.
 
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Everyone is entitled to their opinions or suspicions. I recently ran in to a website that was suspicious of Alan Watts
 
I remain highly Skeptikal. I'm very glad Alex titled this show "claims to have…", because Jurgen seems to not be very deeply impacted by his experiences. i.e How has it effected his art? How has it changed his actions on earth besides meditating more? Has he really said anything new? Seems to me to be pretty close to what the Vedas said 4,000 years ago. And from his own back yard, he sounds like Rudolf Steiner for instance, who is still very popular in Germany.

From his comments here Jurgen seems to believe that ISIS is actually real and not a fabrication of the intelligence services. He seems to believe in man made global warming, another mostly hoax. He seems to believe in false memory syndrome promoted by the False Memory Syndrome Foundation which some say is also from intelligence and is used to hide its MK-Ultra cast-offs and pedophiles and is populated by super skeptics like accused pedophile James Randi.

When he mentioned Oculus Rift the alarm bells went off. No ideas on how to make life better on earth besides more entertainment? How about boycotting factory farms where millions of animals live in a constant state of torture? Or GMOs? Creating pesticide into every cell of a plant is not a good way to spend time in the physical realm is it? How about letting us know who really did 9-11? Didn't the angels tell him to DO anything besides meditate and reach for higher realms?

He's selling a lot of books. The spiritual world is rife with near universal fraud from the the time of the pharaohs who were worshipped as gods. Alex seems to believe Atwill when he says Christianity is a total fabrication. From the Mormons to Blavatsky and Scientology, A Course In Miracles, probably even Eckhart Tolle, etc.etc.

Great. The world is consciousness. I got that a long time ago. Now what? Sell books? Meditate? Escape? Be mindful, develop awareness. OK cool. Now what? Aren't we supposed to make the world a better place? Or is "better" a biased construct? Here's a quote, which sounds exactly like what the PTB would want intelligent sensitive peeps to do. Nothing. Or perhaps worry about their carbon footprint! Ha

"No, when you ask me to consider the next step, I would simply say there is no next step. To me there is only awareness of reality and responding to it without bias or prescribed formula."

I could go on and on.

I refuse the red pill and the green pill. I make my own pills.
I think pretty much the Gita is one of the only books to provide a template. In so far as activism is negative - which I certainly get, one's attached to one's actions. This is what the Gita advised against. We have to act in the physical world, but we should not be attached to our actions.

I also find "I Am That" interesting in places in relation to this subject. Activists seemed to struggle with his (non) take on worldly problems . . . and the fact that he smoked cigarettes.

On another note, I don't find Jurgen suspect at all. Yes, he gets certain world events quite wrong, but I still think he's offering quite a lot and I find it very interesting. In fact, I'd like to devote more time to attempting an OBE.

My wording is a little different than Hurmanetar's, but I see things in a similar sense. I certainly agree that ultimately we're all one and there's no difference on some level, but this becomes quickly absurd in day to day life. How much do we let the "all is one" inform our daily decisions? I consider it an important question and I struggle with it. But my answer is not to ignore obvious physical life conflicts.
 
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Its not like activism makes you happy. It kind of keeps you in a negative mindset or challenges you to deepen your faith so you don't stay negative. There are so many contradictions here it's very hard to write about.
I agree. Activism can be very rewarding for a time but then it's easy to get burned out. It is hard to "balance the being with the doing" but I am a firm believer in the "rubber band effect" in that if you spend some time in focused "being" (meditation, introspection, perhaps altered states of consciousness), and then conversely dive deep into some project in the real world (activism, building something, loving someone ..even cleaning house) then this sort of oscillation and balance is a very effective way to live life.

I am seeing outright fraud with Jurgen however. But how can I prove it?
I don't believe he is disingenuous... I just think he gets his news from the more propagandistic sources.

But maybe the psychic and soul realm is outside of science? Maybe science is only plausible with the material realm?
That's something I've been thinking a lot about lately.. There's no logical reason everything has to be logical. I think the Abyss is real and represents the illogical aspect of reality. I wrote a blog about it here: https://simcah.wordpress.com/2015/11/06/logos-abyss-and-spirit/

Is all of life a paradox?
I think the Abyss guarantees there will always be paradoxes. If there were none, then reality would be perfectly logical so there would be no novelty, creativity, and no mystery so we wouldn't be here trying to figure anything out.

What's a man to do? Carry on stay strong. trust and develop intuition. And if you have the courage or the need- fight evil?

Spiritual power gives very little back materially it seems. See what happened to the Tibetans and the American Indians. Sheesh. And it breaks my heart and makes me cynical and hateful of a world I believe to be based on joy and beauty.

Can anybody spell Job or Jesus? Nothing can be pinned down.

My head is spinning from the contradictions. it's a world of extremes. Antinomy.

Kinda makes ya wanna just sit and meditate. or make art for art's sake. hee hee
peace!
Like I said above, I think the most rewarding way to live life is to oscillate between the serious and not-serious perspective - the being and the doing - activism and selfish seclusion. Neither check out nor take your entanglements too seriously. Don't hold on tightly to anything so that you can grab on tight when the situation calls for it. I think wisdom itself is a series of paradoxes. This is why some of the wisest figures also are capricious tricksters.
 
@ Ginko, Hurmanetar:
When you are declared as an "outright fraud" which is based on more prejudice than you can wave a stick at, drawn from the new religions of conspiracy theory which mostly hold for truth anything that can be imagined as long as it is divorced from mainstream media and is allowed to remain unsupported by tangible evidence, then I have to ask myself what am I actually doing on such a forum?

Where people make assumptions about the depth of the author's feelings and artistic integrety, misread and misrepresent statements, condemn his use of new media of art (VR) without having a clue how it is applied, when they go unchallenged in discrediting his moral integrity without having the slightest idea about his deep involvement and commitment to worthy causes and charities, (because he is already branded as a fraud and clearly as such he naturally can have no moral compass), then I have to ask myself do I really want to respond or even be part of such a forum? When defamation seems to be tolerated, remains unchallenged and even becomes the subject of serious discussion rather than the nature of our human consciousness, then it is time for me to depart which I herewith do. Obviously I can have no part in this.

So now I will have to leave you to further entangle yourselves with you deeply offensive comments, your prejudices and allow you to tend to your religions of alternative "truths". This is clearly not be a place where I belong.

I would like to say thank you to Alex for granting me this interview though.
 
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now I will have to leave you to further entangle yourselves with you deeply offensive comments, your prejudices and allow you to tend to your religions of alternative "truths". This is clearly not be a place where I belong.
I think this is an overreaction Jurgen. You have many followers on the forum.

However, I also think that Ginko's post was offensive, and should have been dealt with by Alex or one of the other moderators.
 
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@ Ginko, Hurmanetar:
When you are declared as an "outright fraud" which is based on more prejudice than you can wave a stick at, drawn from the new religions of conspiracy theory which mostly hold for truth anything that can be imagined as long as it is divorced from mainstream media and is allowed to remain unsupported by tangible evidence, then I have to ask myself what am I actually doing on such a forum?

Where people make assumptions about the depth of the author's feelings and artistic integrety, misread and misrepresent statements, condemn his use of new media of art (VR) without having a clue how it is applied, when they go unchallenged in discrediting his moral integrity without having the slightest idea about his deep involvement and commitment to worthy causes and charities, (because he is already branded as a fraud and clearly as such he naturally can have no moral compass), then I have to ask myself do I really want to respond or even be part of such a forum? When defamation seems to be tolerated, remains unchallenged and even becomes the subject of serious discussion rather than the nature of our human consciousness, then it is time for me to depart which I herewith do. Obviously I can have no part in this.

So now I will have to leave you to further entangle yourselves with you deeply offensive comments, your prejudices and allow you to tend to your religions of alternative "truths". This is clearly not be a place where I belong.

I would like to say thank you to Alex for granting me this interview though.

You should stay on the board. I do want to ask you a question. Do you believe all "alternative media/theories" are bunk? What's your opinion on 9/11? Asking about that as an example, or vaccines?

I would also like to know what your opinion of the "afterlife" is? Is it forever an eternal progress higher and higher levels? Or does it reach a certain point? I worry sometimes the afterlife seems a bit boring
 
@ Ginko, Hurmanetar:
When you are declared as an "outright fraud" which is based on more prejudice than you can wave a stick at, drawn from the new religions of conspiracy theory which mostly hold for truth anything that can be imagined as long as it is divorced from mainstream media and is allowed to remain unsupported by tangible evidence, then I have to ask myself what am I actually doing on such a forum?

Where people make assumptions about the depth of the author's feelings and artistic integrety, misread and misrepresent statements, condemn his use of new media of art (VR) without having a clue how it is applied, when they go unchallenged in discrediting his moral integrity without having the slightest idea about his deep involvement and commitment to worthy causes and charities, (because he is already branded as a fraud and clearly as such he naturally can have no moral compass), then I have to ask myself do I really want to respond or even be part of such a forum? When defamation seems to be tolerated, remains unchallenged and even becomes the subject of serious discussion rather than the nature of our human consciousness, then it is time for me to depart which I herewith do. Obviously I can have no part in this.

So now I will have to leave you to further entangle yourselves with you deeply offensive comments, your prejudices and allow you to tend to your religions of alternative "truths". This is clearly not be a place where I belong.

I would like to say thank you to Alex for granting me this interview though.
Jurgen, I'm sorry to see you go. I hope you'll reconsider. I did enjoy your interview and others of you that I've seen on YouTube. I did not agree with the comment suggesting you were a fraud as I believe that you are genuine and sincere and I stated this above.

Alternative and antiestablishment scientific theories about consciousness and spirituality are very closely related to alternative and antiestablishment political theories and histories. I hope you'll stick around and explore this connection further.
 
@ Ginko, Hurmanetar:
When you are declared as an "outright fraud" which is based on more prejudice than you can wave a stick at, drawn from the new religions of conspiracy theory which mostly hold for truth anything that can be imagined as long as it is divorced from mainstream media and is allowed to remain unsupported by tangible evidence, then I have to ask myself what am I actually doing on such a forum?

Where people make assumptions about the depth of the author's feelings and artistic integrety, misread and misrepresent statements, condemn his use of new media of art (VR) without having a clue how it is applied, when they go unchallenged in discrediting his moral integrity without having the slightest idea about his deep involvement and commitment to worthy causes and charities, (because he is already branded as a fraud and clearly as such he naturally can have no moral compass), then I have to ask myself do I really want to respond or even be part of such a forum? When defamation seems to be tolerated, remains unchallenged and even becomes the subject of serious discussion rather than the nature of our human consciousness, then it is time for me to depart which I herewith do. Obviously I can have no part in this.

So now I will have to leave you to further entangle yourselves with you deeply offensive comments, your prejudices and allow you to tend to your religions of alternative "truths". This is clearly not be a place where I belong.

I would like to say thank you to Alex for granting me this interview though.
Actually, allowing a variety of voices and opinions should be considered one of the most valued qualities of this forum. It should be encouraged. No one wants to be called a fraud and many of us here who have experience in alternative states of consciousness clearly know this isn't the case with Jurgen. Another response to such an accusation, which clearly comes from sheer ignorance, would be to expose that ignorance. Or to at least make an attempt until the accuser's bias becomes exposed and visible to others. Becoming "deeply offended" and running away, while understandably human, belies an apparent lack of equanimity.
 
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