He claims to have traveled outside his body to bring back art… and much more |297|

Thanks Kamarling.
Yes I do get that - any energy matrix will be interpreted positive or negative in terms of our conditioning.
But surely as well as interpretation, there can be creation?
Jurgen speaks of the creation of a teacup and tea for instance.
I think it might have been in the film you mentioned but wasn't there a beautiful cottage in an idyllic setting in the afterlife?
Certainly I've read in the Spiritualist literature of discarnates running round in Rolls Royce cars, smoking cigarettes and drinking beer.
So surely if objects can be created - people can too?
In those same books, maybe even Seth, it's suggested that fundamental Christians may still cling to their beliefs and hang around singing hymns and preaching. So are those people they hang out with, others who are stuck in the same groove, or are they simply wish creations?
Maybe Jurgen can sort this one out.
Hope NZ is treating you well!

I think creation and subjective interpretation go together. I don't see any either-or issue here. We create and interpret according to our beliefs. I've also read channeled material, etc., describing people enjoying sex in the afterlife. No complaints from me there ;)

NZ is wonderful. I've finally had word that my application has been forwarded with a positive recommendation so I'm hoping I'll be back again later in the year: permanently.
 
So such an entity might appear to us in one of these extra-dimensional experiences and, if we are conditioned to think of "heavenly beings", angels, the Divine, etc., then they will appear in such a guise.

Which is why we should be tolerant of different religious experiences, and the meaning the followers of those religions place on the experiences ... they might not all agree, but for their followers, they are based on empirical observations.
 
I enjoyed this interview considerably and the comments as well. I'll buy one of Jurgen's books soon.

I thought I'd note, since no one else has, how vast a distance these subjects - astral planes, OBEs as real - are from so much of what gets debated here, such as whether or not telepathy exists.
 
Early on in my career I have worked in a mental hospital as a therapist. I worked with patients whose reality had removed them from society to such a degree that they were unable to communicate or function, amongst them were paranoid schizophrenic people who in conversation during therapy, gave me their experience and version of reality, which had brought them to the place where they received help to deal with reality. They had become a potential danger to themselves and other people. What they experienced was "real"..

First a correction and apology. I'd written "the only valid path" - which is utter BS.All paths are valid. I changed it to what I mean - "the only valid primary fundamental actuality."
Second, yes what they experience is real. Of course! As real as you experiencing typing that post, That their experience doesn't match what we generally accept as normal for this reality doesn't make it any less real. To go further I'd guess that anyone opening too fully to the expanse might come back altered in ways that make it difficult for them to relate to this reality.

Let me be clear. If I see someone engaged in deep conversation with what is to me an empty chair, I do think that are "off-track." But that doesn't mean I think there experience isn't real. What would make it off-track is that they are having an experience elsewhere and not being aware of the "overlap." If there response to an inquiry was "Of course I know that to you it 's an empty chair" then I'd assess that they aren't off-track.

This reality isn't fundamental, solo or definitive. I agree that people can have experiences and even stay in states that preclude functioning according to the norms of our current societies. But many of those people would have been seen as oracles in other societies.

BtW on a TV tangent - Adele is it!! All that and more.
 
Why don't you start a thread about Seth - his explanation of reality is very strange, and yet hard to dismiss.

David
It's hard to dismiss because you "know" from your higher self intuition it's the truth.

The next step is to get personal confirmation, the easy way would to the take the red pill - like LSD and personally experience it your self.

The harder way is to leave this physical dimension via OBE. But that takes effort most aren't prepared to do.

I strongly suggest you take the red pill, all the smartest people have and never regretted it for one moment.
 
I enjoyed this interview considerably and the comments as well. I'll buy one of Jurgen's books soon.

I thought I'd note, since no one else has, how vast a distance these subjects - astral planes, OBEs as real - are from so much of what gets debated here, such as whether or not telepathy exists.

Just buy his books, they are fantastic! There aren't many living natural OBErs around who write and log their experiences in such an engaging way.
 
You made some valid points which I accept. The last thing I want to do is give the impression that I am in any way an authority in this area or set myself up as such. That would just be a testimony of stupidity.

Having said that we cannot simply accept everything as reality simply because people have experienced and reported it. Not even Seth, Buddha, Silver Birch or Jesus are an authority because reality is not a static institution but a dynamic flowing river, continuously finding new paths.

I tried to hint at this in an earlier post, how hard it is to decide what is real even whilst fully awake in physical consciousness and yet there is a consensus which allows us to get by, communicate with each other, close deals, invent technology and build houses etc. How do we manage that? Because there is an inner judgement or knowing, build on experience, learning and taking the changing dynamics of reality into account. To go out and say, yes, this has been reported under hypnosis, drugs, channeled, dream, lucid dream, NDE, OBE and so on so it must be the way it has been reported and hence real. Institutionalizing experience is not going to allow us to arrive at an authentic understanding of reality, especially as there is a whole universe of illusion, delusion, misrepresentation, personal fantasy and so forth at work. Where does this leave us? I cannot simply accept that I am a ball of light or part of a group soul simply because somebody says so. This is totally meaningless unless I say so myself. Books are not going to really teach us, they just fill our heads with information. That's not the way of arriving at truth, it's not even nearly as good as taking Ayahuasca for example which at least gives us first hand experience if only for a moment and then goes out again (I don't discount the red pill at all btw - and yes - in my modest, limited way I had my mind opened by spending altogether three and a half years of the last forty years of my life in deep meditation, enough so to share it by going public, though not enough in any way to represent myself as any kind of authority).

In the end we will have to do better than relying on other people's testimony, including my own. We need to find the experience for ourselves and develop our essential powers of discrimination which need to be put in place and nurtured in order to cut through the dense undergrowth of experience. We can't just simply say "that's my experience, hence it must be real." That leads us to the point where everything becomes acceptable and we can not longer map out a path to truth or lead a meaningful constructive life or function as a society. Science is very good at this by simply deciding what works and what doesn't. What doesn't work is discarded and what works leads to applied technology. When entering the realm of non-physical reality the best we can do is to report our experience and for the time being to see if statistics lead to some kind of conclusion, but this alone is not going to give us a deeper understanding of the nature of consciousness.

In the end we will need to find the golden piece of string on which all experiences are threaded and that can only be achieved when consciousness moves into the unbiased, clear space of awareness which allows us to discriminate between what is a mirage of the mind and the unconscious and what is its underlying base and substance. Adopting this viewing platform we will at least be able to see "what causes these fuzzy balls of light", what causes these "confabulations and fantasies" and why they are perceived as such and why certain things are taken for real by some and not by others.

The big issue if you want to quote a recent line from the Martian film " gonna science the shit out of this "...

Is science it self moves very slowly. Many scientists can't wrap their head around parallel universes when all the maths is perfect, and plenty of proof is there like in quantum computing. They can't even explain quantum physics,
they just " shut up and calculate ".

They just are not quite ready yet. Also it's NOT ON THIS PHYSICAL DIMENSION !!!

If it took 250 years for science to agree the earth went around the sun, how long will it take to accept higher dimensions ???

All this takes place in non physical dimensions, all we have is "personal confabulations" in your words.

Now if you won't accept you are a ball of light and part of a hive mind, as I explained that is exactly what you are going to get in your personal reality !!!

So the first step is for you accept that, then apply that belief that you are OPEN MINDED to Personally with your own personal higher dimensional Travels to find out.

Could you do that ????

Then you need the methods to learn how to access your hive mind right ???

There is one OBEr like your self who have put out a course to explore your higher hive mind so you can get proof your self of the balls of light, hive mind oversoul stuff.

Could you at least watch his videos and read his materials which out line some techniques on the matter?

It's a first step, that if you have your own Personal confabulations on this specific matter at least we can move it forwards ?

I'm guessing if you getting this from another experienced OBEr like yourself who has explored the hive mind oversoul stuff.... Then you'll have some tools to explore yourself right ?

And coming from an OBEr like your self would make more sense.

It's the guy over at: lucidology.com/oversoul/


Could I upload these materials somewhere or get them over to you ?
 
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I strongly suggest you take the red pill, all the smartest people have and never regretted it for one moment.

I think I would, if I could buy it as a pure chemical - like pharmaceutical drugs. It is the impurities that would worry me!

Since I have never smoked, I have taken cannabis orally. The effect is quite different from what people say about smoking it - there is a weak hallucinogeic (a loaded word, but you know what I mean) effect.

I think I would also have some fear of encountering a bad trip.

David
 
Is science it self moves very slowly. Many scientists can't wrap their head around parallel universes when all the maths is perfect, and plenty of proof is there like in quantum computing. They can't even explain quantum physics,
they just " shut up and calculate ".
I don't think that is quite fair. They are doing their best to create quantum computers, and so far the effect has only been demonstrated in some very small 'computers' (Though there is a firm that markets something called the D-Wave, which may or may not be a breakthrough depending on what you read). As regards extra dimensions, this relates primarily to string theory, and from what I read here:
http://www.math.columbia.edu/~woit/wordpress/
That theory looks like it isn't working out - despite its allegedly beautiful maths (which is way way over my head).

I have a deeper objection to tying conscious phenomena to potential or actual physical phenomena. Physical phenomena are controlled by equations, and this really doesn't leave much room for consciousness. I mean, even if consciousness collapses the wave-function (which depends on which interpretation of QM you prefer), you still haven't explained consciousness itself - just shown how it acts on the physical world.

David
 
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I enjoyed this interview considerably and the comments as well. I'll buy one of Jurgen's books soon.

I thought I'd note, since no one else has, how vast a distance these subjects - astral planes, OBEs as real - are from so much of what gets debated here, such as whether or not telepathy exists.

Start with Multi-dimensional Man.
 
I have a deeper objection to typing non-physical phenomena to potential or actual physical phenomena. Physical phenomena are controlled by equations, and this really doesn't leave much room for consciousness. I mean, even if consciousness collapses the wavefunction (which depends on which interpretation of QM you prefer), you still haven't explained consciousness itself - just shown how it acts on the physical world.

David

So because some of the properties of this "stuff" we call "physical" can be modelled using equations, do you assume that all of its properties must be capable of being modelled that way?





I don't think that is quite fair. They are doing their best to create quantum computers, and so far the effect has only been demonstrated in some very small 'computers'. As regards extra dimensions, this relates primarily to string theory, and from what I read here:
http://www.math.columbia.edu/~woit/wordpress/
That theory looks like it isn't working out - despite its allegedly beautiful maths (which is way way over my head).

I have a deeper objection to typing non-physical phenomena to potential or actual physical phenomena. Physical phenomena are controlled by equations, and this really doesn't leave much room for consciousness. I mean, even if consciousness collapses the wavefunction (which depends on which interpretation of QM you prefer), you still haven't explained consciousness itself - just shown how it acts on the physical world.

David
 
I don't think that is quite fair. They are doing their best to create quantum computers, and so far the effect has only been demonstrated in some very small 'computers' (Though there is a firm that markets something called the D-Wave, which may or may not be a breakthrough depending on what you read). As regards extra dimensions, this relates primarily to string theory, and from what I read here:
http://www.math.columbia.edu/~woit/wordpress/
That theory looks like it isn't working out - despite its allegedly beautiful maths (which is way way over my head).

I have a deeper objection to tying conscious phenomena to potential or actual physical phenomena. Physical phenomena are controlled by equations, and this really doesn't leave much room for consciousness. I mean, even if consciousness collapses the wave-function (which depends on which interpretation of QM you prefer), you still haven't explained consciousness itself - just shown how it acts on the physical world.

David

You've misunderstood. String theory works out perfectly, there are many scientists that fully accept and understand parallel universes.

There just aren't many of them. Most don't get it, they just refuse to accept it.

Even einstien couldn't accept spooky action at a distance. But it's very, very real.

Bells theorem proves all this weird shit like superposition, and things are only real when a conscious observer is present!

Recent new quantum computers this year, have further proved bells thereom with 98% real experiments with a quantum computer.

Quantum computing actually proves parallel worlds. Completely and utterly.

Yet, most older scientists just cannot accept we live in a multidimensional universe where our concious minds create reality. And, the universe is infinite ( even though that is 100% proven ).

So all the proof is there that we live in an infinite, holographic, universe where there are infinite versions of the universe. AND our concious minds affect the outcome.

It's there RIGHT NOW.

I suggest you immediately watch the documentary this year "which universe are we in?" By BBC horizon.

In There the new scientists that have proven all this explain it.

If you can't find it let me know I will upload it for you.
 
I think I would, if I could buy it as a pure chemical - like pharmaceutical drugs. It is the impurities that would worry me!

Since I have never smoked, I have taken cannabis orally. The effect is quite different from what people say about smoking it - there is a weak hallucinogeic (a loaded word, but you know what I mean) effect.

I think I would also have some fear of encountering a bad trip.

David

You CAN get it as a pure drug. Why an earth would you even think you can't ????

You think smart people take anything less than the real pure thing ?

Have a read of this page : http://www.famousscientists.org/14-famous-scientists-inventors-who-experimented-with-drugs/

Now if it's good enough for bill gates, Steve jobs , crick et al it's good enough for you !

Also, there is a trend RIGHT NOW where the smartest people are micro dosing on LSD:

Please read:

http://www.rollingstone.com/culture...ing-became-the-hot-new-business-trip-20151120


You clearly don't quite understand it, you can't get any fear on a micro dose.

Would you sky dive without any training first ?

Fear is entirely a construct of your mind. Control your mind, you control your fear.
 
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You've misunderstood. String theory works out perfectly, there are many scientists that fully accept and understand parallel universes.

There just aren't many of them. Most don't get it, they just refuse to accept it.

Even einstien couldn't accept spooky action at a distance. But it's very, very real.

Bells theorem proves all this weird shit like superposition, and things are only real when a conscious observer is present!

Recent new quantum computers this year, have further proved bells thereom with 98% real experiments with a quantum computer.

Quantum computing actually proves parallel worlds. Completely and utterly.
I don't doubt the reality of quantum mechanics - which has been really well tested in a huge variety of ways. This is utterly different from string theory, which may have wonderful maths, but doesn't have experimental evidence in its favour.
Yet, most older scientists just cannot accept we live in a multidimensional universe where our concious minds create reality. And, the universe is infinite ( even though that is 100% proven ).
Please note also that one interpretation of QM introduces the concept of Many Worlds - which is not the same as the multiple universes of string theory. The Many Worlds interpretation of QM is, in my opinion, quite fanciful. It requires that each time a wave function collapses into one of several (N) possible eigenstates, the entire universe is replaced by N copies - one for each state!

To me that is a silly mathematical abstraction. Furthermore, it is unclear what is supposed to happen when degenerate states are involved (equal energy), because in that case you would seem to need an infinite number of extra universes because the wave function can collapse into an infinite number of possible linear combinations!
So all the proof is there that we live in an infinite, holographic, universe where there are infinite versions of the universe. AND our concious minds affect the outcome.

It's there RIGHT NOW.

I suggest you immediately watch the documentary this year "which universe are we in?" By BBC horizon.

In There the new scientists that have proven all this explain it.

If you can't find it let me know I will upload it for you.

Don't bother - I get my science news from other places!

David
 
You CAN get it as a pure drug. Why an earth would you even think you can't ????

You think smart people take anything less than the real pure thing ?

Have a read of this page : http://www.famousscientists.org/14-famous-scientists-inventors-who-experimented-with-drugs/

Now if it's good enough for bill gates, Steve jobs , crick et al it's good enough for you !

Also, there is a trend RIGHT NOW where the smartest people are micro dosing on LSD:

Please read:

http://www.rollingstone.com/culture...ing-became-the-hot-new-business-trip-20151120


You clearly don't quite understand it, you can't get any fear on a micro dose.

Would you sky dive without any training first ?

Fear is entirely a construct of your mind. Control your mind, you control your fear.
There are some interesting links there, but still no answer as to how you obtain a definitely pure LSD sample of known concentration.

I presume you have explored this further!

As I said, oral cannabis certainly gave me a hint of extended consciousness.

David
 
I don't doubt the reality of quantum mechanics - which has been really well tested in a huge variety of ways. This is utterly different from string theory, which may have wonderful maths, but doesn't have experimental evidence in its favour.

Please note also that one interpretation of QM introduces the concept of Many Worlds - which is not the same as the multiple universes of string theory. The Many Worlds interpretation of QM is, in my opinion, quite fanciful. It requires that each time a wave function collapses into one of several (N) possible eigenstates, the entire universe is replaced by N copies - one for each state!

To me that is a silly mathematical abstraction. Furthermore, it is unclear what is supposed to happen when degenerate states are involved (equal energy), because in that case you would seem to need an infinite number of extra universes because the wave function can collapse into an infinite number of possible linear combinations!


Don't bother - I get my science news from other places!

David

You clearly don't understand any of it. If you aren't prepared to watch a new documentary by the BBC with all the leading scientists talk about their research on parallel worlds.

Well, that proves that you are a closed minded simpleton. You clearly don't understand bells theorem.
So we don't have anything to discuss.
 
There are some interesting links there, but still no answer as to how you obtain a definitely pure LSD sample of known concentration.

I presume you have explored this further!

As I said, oral cannabis certainly gave me a hint of extended consciousness.

David

Have you read them though ?

Why do you think it's complicated to get pure LSD of a known concentration?

It's fairly basic problem to solve, it took me a matter of a few hours a few afternoons to figure that out.

You also have the advantage of living in the information revolution right ?

Think about this, if you wanted to get rich would you ask the advice of a poor person or a rich person?

If you wanted LSD would you ask someone who's taken it and knows all about it, or would you ask someone who have never taken it and doesn't know anything about it?

Ask yourself is there anyone you know recently who's been talking about LSD and clearly taken it ?

Look up connection theory 7 degrees of connection and all that. But I'm guessing you aren't into learning how to research in the golden age of the information revolution.
 
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