He claims to have traveled outside his body to bring back art… and much more |297|

@ Ginko, Hurmanetar:
When you are declared as an "outright fraud" which is based on more prejudice than you can wave a stick at, drawn from the new religions of conspiracy theory which mostly hold for truth anything that can be imagined as long as it is divorced from mainstream media and is allowed to remain unsupported by tangible evidence, then I have to ask myself what am I actually doing on such a forum?

Where people make assumptions about the depth of the author's feelings and artistic integrety, misread and misrepresent statements, condemn his use of new media of art (VR) without having a clue how it is applied, when they go unchallenged in discrediting his moral integrity without having the slightest idea about his deep involvement and commitment to worthy causes and charities, (because he is already branded as a fraud and clearly as such he naturally can have no moral compass), then I have to ask myself do I really want to respond or even be part of such a forum? When defamation seems to be tolerated, remains unchallenged and even becomes the subject of serious discussion rather than the nature of our human consciousness, then it is time for me to depart which I herewith do. Obviously I can have no part in this.

So now I will have to leave you to further entangle yourselves with you deeply offensive comments, your prejudices and allow you to tend to your religions of alternative "truths". This is clearly not be a place where I belong.

I would like to say thank you to Alex for granting me this interview though.

Not that Jurgen will even see this post because he will probably not return,,, but I guess I want to comment anyway.

The sentiment in his post is exactly why I left before and will do so again now. As always I will keep an eye on the subject matter of future interviews to see if it is worth the effort and frankly psychological pain of conversing here. Nine times out of ten it is just not worth the effort.

As one might expect, there are a range of people and personalities who are drawn to a site focused on this subject matter, and one should expect and accept this.

Pushing back on ideas and theories is one thing, but when you cant even agree that someone who has written a number of books and subject, who is an acknowledged worldwide expert, and through his writings and video commentary is genuinely expressing his thoughts and opinions, and accurately documenting his personal experiences,,, well enough with it. Once again the bombast here has driven away an important resource that we could have learned from.

Of course those who do these things will feel no remorse and will just continue to accuse and ridicule. That is their way.

Alex- every time you allow those types to rule the day, you allow your potentially valuable recourse, this forum, to be degraded and sullied. But that's your choice.

Now I'll step aside and the ridicule continue. Enjoy yourselves....
 
@ Ginko, Hurmanetar:
When you are declared as an "outright fraud" which is based on more prejudice than you can wave a stick at, drawn from the new religions of conspiracy theory which mostly hold for truth anything that can be imagined as long as it is divorced from mainstream media and is allowed to remain unsupported by tangible evidence, then I have to ask myself what am I actually doing on such a forum?

/...../
. Obviously I can have no part in this. So now I will have to leave you to further entangle yourselves with you deeply offensive comments, your prejudices and allow you to tend to your religions of alternative "truths". This is clearly not be a place where I belong.

I would like to say thank you to Alex for granting me this interview though.

I think you should stay. I enjoyed reading about your experiences.

It's not like it is an majority here on the forum calling you names. It was one guy - and you can use the forum-function available for you, where you can block this poster, so you don't have to see his posts anymore, ever.

I think that is far better way of handling this, rather than just say;

tDyUGiM.png
 
The sentiment in his post is exactly why I left before and will do so again now. As always I will keep an eye on the subject matter of future interviews to see if it is worth the effort and frankly psychological pain of conversing here. Nine times out of ten it is just not worth the effort.

Psychological pain? I think there are too many fragile ego's. If you find my comment offensive then you must live in a cocoon.

However I'm not narrow minded enough not to be educated.
 
Hey everyone knew here so bare with me and the stupid and redundant questions. Been a long time lurker here for several years. Took some time off lurking here, but came back since this is the stuff that interests me and keeps pulling me back. It will be very interesting talking and discussing our view points with you guys, have a happy new year.

My first question, which has been pulling at my mind when reading some of the post on this thread is Do you think the afterlife would be boring? Or do you think the afterlife is the 4th dimension or their are more puzzles to solve in the 4th dimension to reach the 5th dimension? Or is the "afterlife" all that their is no more "solving" or "learning" how to reach higher dimensions of reality? I ask out of curiosity and quite frankly the Christian version of heaven is more terrifying then complete nothingness. I would be pretty bored living for eternity doing the same thing over and over again, that would be like torture.

Hi Baccarat and Happy New Year to you. I think it is reasonable to assume that boredom and interestingness are possible experiences of consciousness in any state including OOB and that we will have both after death. One possibility is that this very interesting reality (and all others) is the solution to God's main problem: boredom. So I feel confident that wherever we go after we die, there will be highs and lows and in betweens and unknowns to be explored and adventures to be had. Boredom is a problem that can be solved by anyone (including God) with a little imagination and creativity.

I think the reason heaven (in Christianty) seems like such a downer is that it is surrounded by the extremely serious perspective. Also, it seems to be extreme light, and all light with no darkness contains no potential for variation. Likewise with all darkness with no light. But it could be that this "heaven" and "hell" are the same thing looked at from two different perspectives. They are the essence of boundary dissolution as individuated ego yields to Oneness. For some this merging feels like the greatest imaginable love. For others this feels like being torn apart with claws of fire.

Suppose you do dissolve into this distasteful sea of uniformity called heaven or hell. You have not really stopped experiencing. You have just changed your perspective. And I suppose if you come to find that you get tired of it, you'll wake up in the hospital covered in goo on some alien planet where strange creatures hide their faces and yell "peekaboo!" You'll find this exceedingly amusing and thus your worries about boredom were unnecessary.

I don't like the hierarchical perspective of dimensions because dimensions are mathematical constructs. I don't think we graduate into the fifth dimension. I just think dimensions are related to the way that information and consciousness interact.

I do think there are "spiritual hierarchies" that can be climbed, but how seriously you want to take these hierarchies is up to you. There may be severe consequences for the way you approach these hierarchies, but at some level you can sort of see through them and "opt-out" and re-merge with the oneness to get a break from your sometimes awful adventures.
 
Not that Jurgen will even see this post because he will probably not return,,, but I guess I want to comment anyway.

The sentiment in his post is exactly why I left before and will do so again now. As always I will keep an eye on the subject matter of future interviews to see if it is worth the effort and frankly psychological pain of conversing here. Nine times out of ten it is just not worth the effort.

As one might expect, there are a range of people and personalities who are drawn to a site focused on this subject matter, and one should expect and accept this.

Pushing back on ideas and theories is one thing, but when you cant even agree that someone who has written a number of books and subject, who is an acknowledged worldwide expert, and through his writings and video commentary is genuinely expressing his thoughts and opinions, and accurately documenting his personal experiences,,, well enough with it. Once again the bombast here has driven away an important resource that we could have learned from.

Of course those who do these things will feel no remorse and will just continue to accuse and ridicule. That is their way.

Alex- every time you allow those types to rule the day, you allow your potentially valuable recourse, this forum, to be degraded and sullied. But that's your choice.

Now I'll step aside and the ridicule continue. Enjoy yourselves....

Do you need a safe space?
 
Hi Baccarat and Happy New Year to you. I think it is reasonable to assume that boredom and interestingness are possible experiences of consciousness in any state including OOB and that we will have both after death. One possibility is that this very interesting reality (and all others) is the solution to God's main problem: boredom. So I feel confident that wherever we go after we die, there will be highs and lows and in betweens and unknowns to be explored and adventures to be had. Boredom is a problem that can be solved by anyone (including God) with a little imagination and creativity.

One perspective that I don't see discussed very often is the proposition that God, or Mind-At-Large, or Source Consciousness hasn't solved the problem of boredom at all and, in fact, has gone mad.

I'm not being facetious here.
 
One perspective that I don't see discussed very often is the proposition that God, or Mind-At-Large, or Source Consciousness hasn't solved the problem of boredom at all and, in fact, has gone mad.

I'm not being facetious here.

It's not God that's gone mad - just us. :)
 
One perspective that I don't see discussed very often is the proposition that God, or Mind-At-Large, or Source Consciousness hasn't solved the problem of boredom at all and, in fact, has gone mad.

I'm not being facetious here.

Interesting concept. Are you bored? If not, then I'd say God has (temporarily and locally) solved the problem.

I view the cluster of concepts called logos, logic, sanity, and structure as the binary opposition to the abyss, irrationality, insanity, and boundary dissolution. I think that riding on the boundary between this binary opposition is where curiosity, creativity, adventure, interestingness, and the vibrancy of spiritual life occur. Remaining too far inside the boundary on the logic side results in petrified structure and boredom. Going "off the deep end" into the abyss leads to insanity and destruction. As has often been noted, some of the most brilliant creative minds (artists, musicians, inventors, etc) ride the fine line between creativity and insanity sometimes falling "off the deep end" into self-destruction.

I think that the logical aspect of the universe (the patterned alternation of boundaries and spaces which can be explored and modeled by science which relies on repeatability) can be likened to the sane expression of God's subconscious.
 
I think if anything the inner toughness demonstrated by the veteran members of this forum is illustrative of the Skeptiko podcast, or more specifically its host. Alex is no wuss. He's a strong free-market capitalist kinda guy. He's a job creator, a creator of economic wealth. Wusses usually work for the government and steal half of Alex's income for their bloated salaries. It pisses me off.
 
Is it common for astral travelers to be big wusses?

I don't think Jurgen can or should be described in this way. I don't know, but I think he just didn't feel comfortable in the forum, it's a shame in my opinion, but I'm not surprised.

Your macho suck up rant in post #151 is revealing. What impresses me is when toughness is balanced with compassion and fairness.

What I hope for is more fairness. Alex has been quick in the past to stamp out derogatory posts against guests of the podcast, yet Ginko's accusation is still there. It clearly crosses a line (for me). It's inconsistent. Why do you think that should be?
 
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I don't think Jurgen can or should be described in this way. I don't know, but I think he just didn't feel comfortable in the forum, it's a shame in my opinion, but I'm not surprised.

Why would you think I was referring to Jurgen? I don't even know who that is. I haven't listened to the podcast yet.

Oh my! I see I have turned the tables on you, my friend. Now the question becomes, why do YOU think Jurgen is a wuss?
Your macho suck up rant in post #151 is revealing. What impresses me is when toughness is balanced with compassion and fairness.

That's because you're kind of a wuss maybe.
 
Shit. To see Jurgen so offended makes me feel terrible.

I felt bad for a few seconds too...

But really... I'm baffled as to why someone who is somewhat of a public figure would leave in a huff after one accusation of fraud from one new poster - especially after so much other positive feedback. It's not like we invited him into our living room for crumpets and tea. This is a public forum. Alex's original question at the end of the interview was "what do you make of Jurgen?" A new poster gave his opinion while also making some substantive comments. I don't think the new poster should be punished for a sincere substantive comment. I tried to encourage the new poster (there seems to be frustration about lack of participation) by liking and agreeing with some things he said while also defending Jurgen, but I was tacked on as an offender anyway.

I suppose this is why the imaginal realms are preferable... no nasty nay-saying conspiracy theorists out there in the astral realms.

...this would be a good question for Jurgen - if he were still here - have you ever encountered a jack-ass while in OOB? If so, how did you handle it? Was there a resolution to the offense or conflict? Did you simply find yourself slipping into a more pleasant reality where the nasty individual was eliminated? Have you ever had to fight for respect and acceptance in an OOB? Are these types of conflict unique to Earth?

(note: this is not implying that Ginko is a nasty individual... don't want to step on any more toes)
 
Hi Baccarat and Happy New Year to you. I think it is reasonable to assume that boredom and interestingness are possible experiences of consciousness in any state including OOB and that we will have both after death. One possibility is that this very interesting reality (and all others) is the solution to God's main problem: boredom. So I feel confident that wherever we go after we die, there will be highs and lows and in betweens and unknowns to be explored and adventures to be had. Boredom is a problem that can be solved by anyone (including God) with a little imagination and creativity.

I think the reason heaven (in Christianty) seems like such a downer is that it is surrounded by the extremely serious perspective. Also, it seems to be extreme light, and all light with no darkness contains no potential for variation. Likewise with all darkness with no light. But it could be that this "heaven" and "hell" are the same thing looked at from two different perspectives. They are the essence of boundary dissolution as individuated ego yields to Oneness. For some this merging feels like the greatest imaginable love. For others this feels like being torn apart with claws of fire.

Suppose you do dissolve into this distasteful sea of uniformity called heaven or hell. You have not really stopped experiencing. You have just changed your perspective. And I suppose if you come to find that you get tired of it, you'll wake up in the hospital covered in goo on some alien planet where strange creatures hide their faces and yell "peekaboo!" You'll find this exceedingly amusing and thus your worries about boredom were unnecessary.

I don't like the hierarchical perspective of dimensions because dimensions are mathematical constructs. I don't think we graduate into the fifth dimension. I just think dimensions are related to the way that information and consciousness interact.

I do think there are "spiritual hierarchies" that can be climbed, but how seriously you want to take these hierarchies is up to you. There may be severe consequences for the way you approach these hierarchies, but at some level you can sort of see through them and "opt-out" and re-merge with the oneness to get a break from your sometimes awful adventures.

Thanks for replying. I'm glad I find a place to be more open minded about this "crazy" place we call life. So many questions....but it makes my appetite grow. I love hearing peoples different perspectives and experiences. Hopefully I can share some of my own soon. Wonder if its a eternal dream that just goes on and on and on. Maybe the construct and boredom rust off as we experience the unexplainable
 
What do you make of Jurgen Ziewe? What do you think of his accounts of this extended consciousness realm? How do they compare and contrast with the views of other Skeptiko guests? How do we reconcile all these conflicting accounts?

I warmed to Jurgen: I felt he was open and honest. The thing about most reported descriptions of a reality beyond this one is that they still embrace a notion of space, matter and time. You can't perceive anyone, or a great choir, or whatever, unless there is space in which to see them; you can't observe them doing anything unless they do it in time, and their appearance as objects localisable in space implies some kind of material framework, however tenuous or unfamiliar.

To me, this means that there is still some conditioned perception in play, because I don't believe that space, matter and time exist except in the dissociated minds of alters (as Bernardo Kastrup would put it). So to some extent at least, in the various states of altered awareness, dissociated and conditioned minds still exist. It's possible that some states are a little different--one thinks of Buddhist descriptions, for example, where people are simply aware of awareness and experience what they claim is complete absence of ego, but I wonder whether that's completely free of interpretative language. All descriptions are at a remove from experiences themselves; all attempts to explain using ordinary language, in which concepts of space, matter and time are implicitly embedded.

Michael, I understand your point. But are holograms for example part of spacetime?
 
Michael, I understand your point. But are holograms for example part of spacetime?

Well holograms are experienced spatially, and they allow access to something from the past to be experienced in the future, so they have a temporal element.

I think holograms are interesting though, mainly because they employ coherence, together with interference with that coherence. Two things which I think are fundamental to our understanding of reality through the experience of space-time.
 
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