Nelson
Member
And just to add, if it's true that a soul chooses the family and culture to be incarnated into before birth, then the aggressive opining and interventionism of the oppressors vs victims narrative becomes essentially meaningless
Jason Jorjani, From Redefining Parapsychology to Image Cheapening |584|
- Thread starter Alex
- Start date
And just to add, if it's true that a soul chooses the family and culture to be incarnated into before birth, then the aggressive opining and interventionism of the oppressors vs victims narrative becomes essentially meaningless
SnakeTurbanHead
New
Love you as well, Alex, and I love Chester's hair as well!
Alex
Administrator
I get it... but there's also a "don't suffer fools gladly" part of this. flat earthers, holohoaxers, and no rabies virus deniers sometimes create unnessary clutter.
I've talked about this topic many times... and I've engaged, at least a little bit, with flat earthers and holoholsters... and I engaged a lot with the no rabies virus deniers. I naively thought that data, evidence, science would be persuasive, but I found that it usually isn't.
Again, I'm not totally shutting down these discussions... I just don't suffer fools gladly.
Ok, but if I were to persist... as I'm prone to do
![[[p]]](data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7 "Wink [[p]]")
I would return to yr original post:"I would imagine what JJ wants is NOT freedom, but instead a form of control that HE happens to like more."
This is where you missed the point. Jason, in this interview, and in his writing is saying the opposite of this. I'm not exactly how you missed this?
Ok, what did you understand about it?
because to me the most significant point is the actions that mishlove took to cancel Jason. maybe you're not familiar with Jason's appearances on mishlove's show but they had millions of views. he was the most popular guest on new thinking allowed. mishlove canceled him, scrubbed him. and as we discussed, his explanation was bordering on the bazaar. I mean mishlove wrote a book wrote a pretty famous book called PK man... all about his personal experience with a guy who had alien contact... and now he's claiming that the United States government is being forthright about disclosure and is telling us what they know as they know it.
Alex
Administrator
Yeah, this might need more of an explanation. Jason was talking with Jacques Vallée about a "free energy" ( misnomer but everyone gets the point) technology that could be commercialized. many have claimed in the past that these Technologies have been discovered were then prevented from being commercialized because they could/would disrupt the oil-based World economy and political structure.
here is Steven Greer talking extensively about this problem and how he's trying to get around it by open sourcing free Energy Technologies. I'm not sure how genuine/legit/non-op-y he is, but here's the interview:
so, in kind of a shorthand way Jason and I were talking about the fact that the disruptive force of free energy technology is one of the few things that one can imagine that could really have the potential to challenge " the system."
So, imagine there's this free energy technology and that if you could band together a few pretty smart scientists/engineers you could get your own system going maybe not in your garage but kind of at that level. so then Jason took it one step further and said yeah I totally get what you're saying but imagine if you could get a country on board to say "hey we're going to run with this and we don't care how it upsets the oil cartel or the solar cartel or anything else we're just going to run with this."
so again this kind of only makes sense with an open source more or less publicly available free energy technology and that's what we're talking about as opposed to "UFO technology." of course, there could be some link to non-human intelligence in all sorts of different ways, but what we were talking about is the business/political side of disruptive free Energy Technologies.
Vortex
Member
And thank you for your polite responses, Nelson. Such restraint of painful passion - which my writings here probably already provoked in you - is rare and laudable. I am much more used to the hysterical froth-at-the-mouth vehemence coming from my opponents. Seems you hold yourself to the virtue that is almost completely lost nowadays: the respect to one's enemy. This is the virtue I hold to myself.
Yes, my stance is radical and militant. I never intended it to be anything else. This is not a fluffy generic love-and-peace that I proclaim, but an open and hostile confrontation with what I will NOT to be - such as digital totalitarianism, be it Chinese, Russian or Western. Digital totalitarianism is absolutely unwillable by me, and by those others whose volitions are like mine, ones who stand for individual freedom first and foremost. Its existence can be neither approved, nor even tolerated, by myself and the ones whose volitions is like mine. No peace with it is possible, under no conditions. It is to be erased from existence - for such is my will, and the wills of others standing on my side of this conflict.
Try to understand it, Nelson: for a free-spirited person like myself, existence under the yoke of the digital totalitarianism is HELL - very literally and unmetaphorically so. It is an infernal condition that completely kills the free spirit, dooms a free one to a soul death. And hell is one thing that just CANNOT be allowed to exist. There is NO justification that can be put forward in defence of hell and the soul death it brings; no excuse for killing one's spirit can be ever wrought.
And there are certainly some Chinese people who are free spirits like me - possibly much more than we know.
The problem with totalitarianism, Nelson, is that protesting it in the open is difficult and dangerous to the point of being nearly impossible. So, out of all people who disapprove of it, and suffer from it, only the tiniest fraction will ever express their disagreement and distress publicly - and only the tiniest fraction of this tiniest fraction of open opponents will become famous enough to be noticed outside of a totalitarian society.
So, the apparent "mass loyalty" to a totalitarian power is always a falsehood, only existing because of a massive repressive and restrictive apparatus that is nearly impossible to challenge. And apparatus itself exists only because discontent does exist: if everyone were loyal, there would be no need to maintain its costly functioning.
So, Nelson, my unanswered question for you still stands: why do Chinese need their colossal digital machinery of surveillance, censorship and persecution if eveyone approves of power structure? Wouldn't it be excessive and unnecessary?
That's why I sympathise with Jason Jorjani. He also have enough courage not only to stand for, and struggle for, something that he wills to be, but to understand, and accept, that this inevitably requires standing against, and struggling against, something that is incompatible and irreconcilable with what he wills to be. He is honest with himself, and with others, that there are some things he wills NOT to be - even if it leads him in a conflict with others whose wills are different.
And so, despite certain disagreements I have with him, I respect him. This won't change even if he would one day become the enemy of mine as well, due to our disagreements over certain things. We might become enemies in some other respects, be we still be allies in opposition to digital totalitarianism - in our decisions that it is to be eradicated forever.
There are no "families", "religions" or "nations". They have no "status", no "rights", even no existence. These are, literally, semiotic games individuals play with each other and with themselves; fanciful illusions projected by the individuals on existential chaos they face in order to construct some transient and limited semblance of order.
Individuals, their wills and their choices are all that is real. Everything else is just a play; play that is oftentimes - well, even most times - goes awry, when the players lost themselves in it and start to reify (or even deify) the semiotic constructs they, themselves, wrought - and that they are free to demolish any moment, if their wills are such.
This does not mean that such illusions are contemtible. Not at all. If being voluntarily accepted, and engaged in, they may become artisitc and brilliant, enriching and refining our existence. They can provide some necessary structure for a deeper, and more engaging, existential game. Without them, our existence would have become bland and boring.
But one should always remember that such games are, ultimately, just games. While players are willing to engage, they can be wonderful. But if unwilling ones are forced into them, they turn into nightmares.
To be precise, I consider ALL involuntary power structures, be they familial, governmental, corporate, clerical, academic, whatever, to be - most literally and unmetaphorically so - BDSM plays that had gone out of control and far, far beyond "safe, sane and consensual" principles that make them acceptable. Putin, Zelensky, Erdogan, Modi, Xi, Macron, Scholz, Sunak, Trudeau, Biden - all of them, for me, are simply BDSM enthusiasts with severe self-control problems, who lost their sanity and started forcing unwilling people into their own sadomasochistic fantasy-enactments.
These "world leaders" are sad people, really, all of them. Were they not in charge of the repressive and restrictive institutional apparatuses, were they not capable of enslaving, tormenting and exterminating people large-scale, they could have been pitied. But, unfortunately, they are in control - and all of us, in danger and distress.
What is funny, I am actually "live and let live" type to the ultimate extreme, but under one fundamental condition - participation in any activity must be voluntary for each participant. As long as each one engages willingly, I can and do approve of absolutely ANYTHING, no matter how deeply unlikeable for a non-participant.
And I approve of absolutely NOTHING that is against participants' own volition, no matter what kind of justifications are presented.
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Nelson
Member
Thank you Vortex, for your articulate, gracious and forthright comments. I appreciate that and they're very thought-provoking. :)
While I agree with much of what you say, I have some counters to make re:
"Families" are constructions in a sense, but to a degree they're influenced by evolutionary psychology. In other words, it's instinctual to favour those who are more closely genetically similar to oneself. It could be argued that a religious group or nation is an extension of the family, so these too are influenced by evolutionary psychology. So I don't think they're merely semiotic games.
If we look at other species, this might shed a different light. According to biologists, dolphins are one of the few known species with self-awareness. Yet it's reportedly normal for the males of this species to band together in order to forcibly copulate with lone females. I.e. gang rape.
I like dolphins, but I don't judge them for breaking the rule you set forth of voluntary participation. It is as it is. Live and let live.
If peopls say in central Asia have a custom of abduction marriages, that's entirely their affair as far as I'm concern. As long as they keep to themselves, live and let live.
From the perspective of a ruler, the more tools of control at one's disposal the better. So why wouldn't the Chinese leadership do this?...
Historically there's never been a democracy or republic in China, so the burden of evidence would be on you to show the Chinese culture values individual freedom. The overwhelming majority never seem to have cared about this.
While I agree with much of what you say, I have some counters to make re:
"Families" are constructions in a sense, but to a degree they're influenced by evolutionary psychology. In other words, it's instinctual to favour those who are more closely genetically similar to oneself. It could be argued that a religious group or nation is an extension of the family, so these too are influenced by evolutionary psychology. So I don't think they're merely semiotic games.
If we look at other species, this might shed a different light. According to biologists, dolphins are one of the few known species with self-awareness. Yet it's reportedly normal for the males of this species to band together in order to forcibly copulate with lone females. I.e. gang rape.
I like dolphins, but I don't judge them for breaking the rule you set forth of voluntary participation. It is as it is. Live and let live.
If peopls say in central Asia have a custom of abduction marriages, that's entirely their affair as far as I'm concern. As long as they keep to themselves, live and let live.
From the perspective of a ruler, the more tools of control at one's disposal the better. So why wouldn't the Chinese leadership do this?...
Historically there's never been a democracy or republic in China, so the burden of evidence would be on you to show the Chinese culture values individual freedom. The overwhelming majority never seem to have cared about this.
David Bailey
Member
Alex, I have loved this forum for many years, and for several years, I also put considerable effort into moderating the site and keeping it clear of junk posts.
I looked at the Flat Earth website and I wasn't impressed - but nobody here (I think) is actually promoting that website - so what the hell?
I have absolutely no idea what "holoholsters" are!
The phrase"rabies virus deniers" is something of a distortion, because
a) The primary focus of that movement is against the AIDS and COVID-19 viruses, although the concept may very well apply more widely.
b) The point that all those who have posted on this subject have tried to make, is that the corresponding disease exists, but in all probability it is not passed on by a virus. Indeed the concept of a virus was an hypothesis, and the problem is that that hypothesis was not really proved. We should have had a normal Skeptiko discussion of this perfectly rational concept.
Unless you have a problem with holochsters/holohoaxers that I have not noticed, this is just that you got upset about the virus issue - basically because I don't think you understand it. You didn't 'engage' with the 'no virus' issue - you simply do not seem to want to understand what we were talking about.
You have asked me and others to find a virologist who will come on a podcast and admit the problem with their research. That is bloody impossible, it would be like inviting Randy to come on the show to admit that his $1 million offer was deliberately unwinnable.
I'm really sorry to you have taken to sneering at some of your long-term members (though not by name) - such as Michael Larkin, and I can't see what harm Iconoclast has done to be banned for a week - I doubt if he will return.
Can't we have a sane discussion about this?
David
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Nelson
Member
PS: added to that higher emotions and the soul level, of bonds that are beyond mere evolutionary psychology. Human infants are uniquely helpless and need devoted care from adults for many years. And on the soul level, there's evidence for soul groups, individuals maybe not so closely genetically related but deeply connected in other ways.
This can't be attributed to merely semiotics / people just placing meaning on things arbitrarily
Alex
Administrator
Here's the guy:
Dr. RICHARD M. FLEMING
Website: https://www.flemingmethod.com
Twitter: https://twitter.com/Doctor_I_am_The
here's an interview with him on UOTU:
https://uotuw.podbean.com/e/union-o...nd-table-with-dr-peter-mccullough-dr-fleming/
When you contact him be sure to explain that the primary reason we want him on is to hash out the "no rabies no virus" op. be sure to explain that this disinformation campaign has more legs than he might initially think. evidence for this can be found in RFK jr interview on HigherSide chats where JFK Jr. is hesitant to completely disassociate himself from the "no rabbies, no virus" silliness.
I would suggest that this is exactly the kind of evidence we would expect to see from this kind of disinformation campaign... i.e. the goal is not to persuade large numbers, but to muddy the waters and create confusion... thus making it harder to focus on the harsh reality of being the victim of a bioweapon (a reference to his book title).
Feel free to bounce the email off of me before you send it. I think this could be a good interview so I want to make sure we have the best chance of securing it.
Also, I would strongly suggest that you read his book and listen to the presentation I've linked above and or other presentations on YouTube/rumble.
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Nelson
Member
Wait, Iconoclast = SnakeTurbanHead? If so, that'd be a shame
Even when he was hyperbolic, there was often a kernel of truth to what he said. Poetic and thought-provoking too
Nelson
Member
PS: and that's in the context of other forums where speech is censored and debating a topic considered aggressive
Today I even had a face-to-face talk with a person who fervently believes the Earth is a disc. He said he knows it's true and didn't want to discuss it with me. He started pointing his finger at me, calling me arrogant and closed-minded. I asked if there would be a test we could perform to verify if the Earth is a disc or a sphere. I suggested looking at commercial airline flight times on swoodoo or google flights across locations in the southern hemisphere to see numerically which model fits best: a disc or a sphere. He rejected any such objectively testable experiment and continued his own talking points, pointing his finger at me and going ad hominem
Well that's a snippet from face-to-face "debates". Or one talks about geopolitics and the other person simply says they wish all Trump supporters to die.
That's the level of "debate" that's become quite normal outside of skeptiko these days.
Today I even had a face-to-face talk with a person who fervently believes the Earth is a disc. He said he knows it's true and didn't want to discuss it with me. He started pointing his finger at me, calling me arrogant and closed-minded. I asked if there would be a test we could perform to verify if the Earth is a disc or a sphere. I suggested looking at commercial airline flight times on swoodoo or google flights across locations in the southern hemisphere to see numerically which model fits best: a disc or a sphere. He rejected any such objectively testable experiment and continued his own talking points, pointing his finger at me and going ad hominem
Well that's a snippet from face-to-face "debates". Or one talks about geopolitics and the other person simply says they wish all Trump supporters to die.
That's the level of "debate" that's become quite normal outside of skeptiko these days.
Silence
Member
If it wasn't so potentially serious, it would be funny.
I have dozens of people in my personal sphere that feel this way about the "other side"; be it Biden/woke-dems or Trump/maga-repubs. (Probably relatively equally split btw)
Yet, ironically at least to this point, they all seem to get along just fine in day to day interactions. Just don't talk politics.
Its a fascinating thing actually.
David Bailey
Member
Alex,
Of course I'm not going to contact him.
You want to obscure the problems that Micheal Larkin, and others (including myself) wanted to discuss. If you can't do that in an intellectually honest way, why bother posting at all?
David
Nelson
Member
Yes. The flat Earth guy I was talking to yesterday even said he'd hit anyone who mentioned gravity. An ugly situation. He said I was closed-minded and within a minute he said there's no way he's going to change his view of the shape of the planet, that he knows the Earth is a disc and he feels good knowing this.
I was quite pushy asking if we could just look at the disc Earth map and the southern hemisphere in particular, to see that the east-west distances along the latitude of Australia, New Zealand, South Africa, Chile, Argentina are so much greater than they would be on a sphere. So if the Earth is really a disc, how can sailors, fishermen, pilots, truck drivers, etc. in the southern hemisphere not notice that their maps / distances/ travel times aren't fitting with the spherical earth distances and travel times?
Especially considering I grew up in the southern hemisphere, have flown many times between continents, have used very precise nautical maps for years while boating, and have done massive road trips etc.
That's not to mention the pilots, ship-operators, truckers etc. who have to analyse their distances and travel times as part of the job.
But people who are defending an emotionally-held belief, such as that the Earth is a disc, seem to avoid getting into the specifics where it can be tested. They try to change topic, shut down debate, and if that doesn't work, even start getting aggressive and violent even if they get intellectually confronted by a determined opponent
David Bailey
Member
I fear it is. The virus issue was extremely interesting, and Alex just doesn't want to let it be discussed, so he introduces irrelevancies such as the Flat Earth Society, or deliberately misrepresents the issue as one of the rabies disease not existing.
A number of interesting posters, such as Viberaider, and probably Michael Larkin seem to have given up left this issue.
Frankly I don't understand what has upset Alex.
Possibly he has been lent on by Big Phrama, or whoever. We have touched on so many sensitive subjects over the years, and I had grown to assume that something like that would not happen here.
Possibly he really is under the misapprehension that this is a poison topic meant to discredit Skeptiko - I just don't know.
I have tried to talk to Alex privately, but all he does is demand that I reach out and try to recruit someone deep in virus research rather than debate the relevant issue here, as we always have done. Nobody here gets shut up for discussing 'wacky' issues like life after death, they aren't told to pull in a mainstream brain scientist to discuss the issue!
Over the years Alex has asked me to try to contact someone from the Discovery Institute and other places to discuss the strong evidence that we did not get here by evolution by natural selection. I was happy to try, but I can tell you, it is all but impossible. Alex has much more clout to pull people on to his podcasts, I just hope he recovers his nerve so that Skeptiko can function more like it used to do.
David
I full understand if the owner of the forum wants a limit to the wackiness of things being discussed here. After the “no virus” debate I would for instance like to debate some recent santa claus sightings in Scandinavia. On the more serious side I think it will scare off a lot of debaters and possible interview candidates to open up for all sort of conspiracy theories.
Silence
Member
Or maybe he simply disagrees with you?
Alex
Administrator
ll
this is nonsense.
pls refrain from posting for a few days so you can organize your thoughts and contact Dr Fleming.
Keep me posted on yr progress... I really don't think he will be that hard to get in touch with.
email me directly re yr progress and I'll bring you back online when you're ready to report your findings.
this is nonsense.
pls refrain from posting for a few days so you can organize your thoughts and contact Dr Fleming.
Keep me posted on yr progress... I really don't think he will be that hard to get in touch with.
email me directly re yr progress and I'll bring you back online when you're ready to report your findings.
Alex
Administrator
I do think it turns off people we would like to have on the Forum, but I'm not sure there's much we can do about that. I mean, as soon as you start trying to placate one person/group you wind up in a mudslide.
I think we have the right ethos we just have to follow up on it... follow the data wherever it leads... look out for the deception... use discernment to sort thru the body bags.
Beyond that I think we have to appreciate that these kind of discussions can get heated and we should try and take out as much personality / ego as possible. that's why I always appreciate people who offer links to other sources of information that can add to the discussion.
Let's get some more level three discussions on the skeptiko forum... without having to gladly suffer foolishness