Mary Rodwell, Extended Consciousness Hierarchy |587|

[Nelson]

I appreciate that Mary, Bud Hopkins, David Jacobs and John Mack all come across as highly intelligent and credible. I’m sure they all are.

Why would you be sure David Jacobs is telling the truth. He has a sketchy vibe imo and he was extremely evasive when Alex asked him to do a filmed regression to test his work. It's a huge red flag.

 

[Wormwood]

But maybe David Icke is correct about reptilian aliens, in which case maybe his regressions are correct. It's interesting that the anthropologist Ardy Sixkiller Clarke reports reptilian aliens among American Indians' experiences for instance...

I don’t recall where I encountered this info, but I think it was in listening to Grant Cameron. He referenced a study once regarding close encounter/abduction cases which found that the most common “alien” encountered during these experiences was simply what appeared to be a human being(s). The second most common was what we commonly refer to as “the greys.” The third most common is a reptilian creature of some sort. And I’m personally aware of at least a couple of well studied and credible cases of encounters with reptilians. Though I suspect that there are thousands of such cases/experiences. Of course none of this means that David Icke is right in what he says, but it is interesting to note and is a good data point.

 

[Nelson]

I don’t recall where I encountered this info, but I think it was in listening to Grant Cameron. He referenced a study once regarding close encounter/abduction cases which found that the most common “alien” encountered during these experiences was simply what appeared to be a human being(s). The second most common was what we commonly refer to as “the greys.” The third most common is a reptilian creature of some sort. And I’m personally aware of at least a couple of well studied and credible cases of encounters with reptilians. Though I suspect that there are thousands of such cases/experiences. Of course none of this means that David Icke is right in what he says, but it is interesting to note and is a good data point.

Yes, if I remember Richard Dolan mentioned those stats too. Thanks for bringing that up!

 

[Alex]

Mary makes it pretty clear she’s not settled as to whether our existence could be a hologram. I agree. But if you go deep enough with that thought the word Hologram could just be a cheap description of dimensional layering. Or maybe it is a hologram inside some crystalline mega computer.

Thanks for bringing this up... and taking it one step further. it's something I wanted to return to and think about but there was so much going on in this interview that I never got around to it

I love your phrase "cheap description of dimensional layering." it seems to fit. it seems to capture how ridiculously far away we are with this description, and yet at the same time how useful it might be.

and I might take what you offered a tiny step further and replace " dimensional " with " consciousness. " again, I'm not sure this moves us closer, but it does seem to me like the dimensional thing is a total whiff by astrophysicist types. thoughts?

I also didn’t hear Mary make any definitive claim that the ET’s are from off planet.

She did. different planets. different solar systems. I think she even mentions different galaxies.

She also is seems persuaded by the info that's coming back regarding time travel. at some point I'm going to have to throw in the towel and acknowledge this is another instance where the burden of proof has shifted. Time Travelers are part of the equation.

but the idea still makes me uneasy.

 

[Alex]

The Seth Material, which I first encountered in the 1970s, was extremely impressive, to the extent that I'd have 'body rushes' while reading. Years later I realized that (1) There was NO WAY I could verify ANY of it (at least until this body dies) and (2) It was totally unclear, unknowable really, WHO or WHAT Seth really was.

Nice!

With regard to the whole ET/UFO morass, I have no f'ing idea. I don't outright dismiss any of it, but I just ain't an 'experiencer'.

IDK... but it seems to me not being an experiencer has advantages.

some folks become so overwhelmed by their experience that they lose all objectivity/ discernment.

look no further than the born again Christian... fundamentalist Muslim... fill in the blank cult member. it's not that their experience isn't real, they just lost the ability to find any distance from it. thoughts?

 

[Alex]

drop the mic moment.

haha... totally agree!

I think it was fascinating that Mary didn't see this right away.

I have an interview coming up with Jason Jorjani where we talk about this... as you know it doesn't exactly fit into his worldview. but to his credit he was very flexible.

 

[Alex]

PS I wonder if Rodwell would be up for filming some regressions, such as of the man who said he was an alien and had a life review...

I totally understand where you're coming from... but I think we have to go back and really examine this history. these guys have been doing regressions like this for 40 years. they withstood all sorts of crazy Off the Wall skepticism and debunking. they've done stuff like recordings and other testing you're talking about.

so I just think you have to be sensitive when you come in and say ok well prove it all over to me again. I think I better starting place is to really dig through the literature and the accounts.

In doing so, what really jumps out at me is how disingenuous and dishonest the skeptic / debunkers were/are. and this is analogous to the pmh Atwater thing in that there should be zero tolerance for dishonesty and among Skeptics and debunkers because they've put themselves in the position of researchers. if you have a fake psychic... that's one thing... but if you have a fake researcher or a fake debunker that's another thing.

Back in the day I used to be able to get Skeptics and debunkers on the show. gradually fewer and fewer of them came on. their performance was embarrassing.

 

[Alex]

While I don't think that Jacobs and Hopkins were deliberately setting out to do bad work, they did. Neither were trained in regression or spiritual psychology, and neither were neutral in the regression work they undertook. I've listened to some of Jacobs's sessions with Emma Woods, and he asks leading questions and makes traumatising suggestions while she is under hypnosis (which is unethical and potentially harmful): https://emmawoodsbooks.com/david-m-jacobs/

Hopkins' ex-wife Carol Rainey is currently writing a book about her experience with him and his regression work, because she felt it had harmed some people, and she saw first-hand how suggestible vulnerable people are (some chapters are at the above link).

I first became interested in this topic when I was speaking to a prominent and well-known UFO researcher who told me how damaging their session with Hopkins was back in the 80s, because Hopkins was insisting that the Beings had a negative agenda while this person was under hypnosis, which left them terrified when they had not previously been (because they had only had positive experiences). I decided to look into it and found the info at the above link.

The usual response to this information in the ufo community is anger and denial, "it's just a disgruntled ex-wife etc". I don't agree. I think there is something here, and it's relevant to how the field of UFOlogy can be deceived, and how harm has been done.

There's a lot to unpack here. I've listened to the tapes From Emma Woods. and I've read a lot of the material. it's been a couple of years but most of the debate seem to center around " unprofessional" " unethical" " traumatizing" all of which are important, but not what I've been most interested in.

What I'm interested in is whether or not hypnotic regression can be used to elicit valuable information in these situations... I.e. recovery of memories of contact with non-human intelligence, abductions, past lives, between lives.

I believe the evidence suggests that hypnotic regression can be useful in these situations/ applications. and I think it's analogous to memory / first person accounts in general... I mean, there's a lot to sort through when assessing the believability of anyone's first person account. the fact that the memory was generated during hypnotic regression is just another aspect of that evaluation. for example, what are we to do with memories that are recovered during hypnotic regression and confirmed by others who are not undergoing hypnosis?

But I'd really like to talk to somebody who has a different opinion. I.e. who claims that hypnotic regression is completely unreliable and therefore can't possibly be useful in these situations.

If you know someone who holds this position, and has written a book, and would be willing to come on skeptiko I'd love to talk to him/her.

 

[Alex]

I will say, at least in his case, regarding John Mack, not all of his patients/clients retrieved their memories (or maybe fantasies) via hypnosis. Though what exactly these particular patients who came to him with “normal” memories had to say and how this lined up with or contradicted with his other patients “retrieved memories” I am unsure. It would be interesting to contrast and compare these narratives if the information required to do so was available. But I doubt that it is.

Good point. I can't produce the details off of the top of my head but I know there's a lot of evidence confirming what you're saying. I E a good proportion of people who go into hypnotic regression for these kind of situations have lots of " normal " memories as a starting point and are mainly looking to fill in the gaps.

Ray Hernandez from FREE would have a lot more data on this. so would Dr. Bob Davis who's been on the show a couple of times.

if you really wanted to do us all a favor you could reach out to Bob and ask him a couple of these questions. tell him you'd like to post them on the skeptiko forum

 

[Alex]

But maybe Jacobs was setting out to deceive people. That seems to be a main thrust of the UFO disinfo, that when it's admitted they exist, the spiritual is ignored and the potential "threat" is the focus

Like I said before, there's a lot of history here... a lot has been written about that history. I've never come across anything that would suggest that this artist from Manhattan was seeking to deceive people... could be... I'm just saying I've read a pretty good deal about it and I've never come across any credible evidence.

 

[SnakeTurbanHead]

This woman is obviously a free spirit in many respects, but I would take caution when it comes to believing

I listened to this episode this morning thoroughly entirely enjoyed it. This is another example of Alex being the best in the business.
Just some points and thinking aloud here...

I think the only other show that could do an interview on this level would be Greg at Higherside Chats. Would be a different spin for sure, but on the same level.

I'm Surprised that I don't remember listening to the other episodes with Mary Rodwell, and now i will go back and listen to them all. And likewise I'm gonna go check Higherside Chats for episodes with her.

Mary seems like such a beautiful person, and I hope she flies out to Southern California some time to do a presentation, if so I'm there!

Fun pointer, Alex. I had a conversation with you once and I attempted to make a point that Mary succeeded at making in this interview which was the idea that different people might be here for different reasons. My application of that was to the Why Evil Matters question. My point was (rhetorically) that it could even be the case that "evil" people are doing a service by preforming the life of an evil person and incurring all the associated karma. Of course we don't know., but this would match up with the energetic reaction I get when i consider the Karmic repercussions of thought like "well why don t we just round up all the evil people and dump them in the ocean?" which sparks a confusing feeling of unfairness - like it would feel justified, but that's not the problem we're here to solve.

Another fun pointer, I found it hilarious when Mary used the label "the Nuts-and-Bolters" almost as a pejorative. I laughed.

Monumental work, Alex! Bravo.


(Edit Add)
Going back to listen to past Mary Rodwell episodes now. Looks like it's the following episodes:
228. 308, 423, and 587(current)

When I launch my podcast, you will be on it! Love you brother Rob!

 

[SnakeTurbanHead]

But maybe David Icke is correct about reptilian aliens, in which case maybe his regressions are correct. It's interesting that the anthropologist Ardy Sixkiller Clarke reports reptilian aliens among American Indians' experiences for instance...

No, David Ike is a fucking jack ass! As a reptile owner of over 30 years, I can tell you that they don't conspire, ever! Furthermore, the idea that snakes are evil is the biggest human fabrication of all time! Rats conspire. Dogs conspire. Humans conspire. SNAKES DO NOT EVER FUCKING CONSPIRE! Has anybody ever seen a herd of lizards? Fuck NO! Wake up jack asses! Stop listening to idiots like David Ike!

 

[SnakeTurbanHead]

But maybe David Icke is correct about reptilian aliens, in which case maybe his regressions are correct. It's interesting that the anthropologist Ardy Sixkiller Clarke reports reptilian aliens among American Indians' experiences for instance...

Forgive me....as I need to say the word "HOLY," then again, "HOLY," and one more time, "HOLY," first! Nelson, first and foremost, your beard is looking great man, but let us stop with this David Ike, Lizard people bullshit! David Ike is a FUCKING IDIOT! It makes me laugh my ass off that people think that "flat earth" is incomprehensible, but at the same time give credence to this fucking clown, David Ike!

 

[SnakeTurbanHead]

Forgive my somewhat circuitous intro to this comment but:

Over the past year I produced a podcast series on the evolution of the thought of David Icke. Essentially, I wanted to understand how he came to believe in shape-shifting reptilians. It became apparent to me that memories recovered through hypnosis played a massive role in forming his worldview. By extension, they play a massive role in conspiracy culture more generally.

Such is the extent of this role, I felt the need to produce spin off episodes specifically examining this question: Is there evidence that hypnosis can reliably be used to recover repressed memories? These could be memories of child abuse, Satanic cult abuse, alien abduction or involvement with the MKUltra program. The short answer (with a couple of caveats) is ‘no’, I don’t think there’s any evidence it can. Given the extent of efforts to validate ‘recovered memories’, the absence of evidence seems like evidence of absence. This is something memory experts (depending on how you define who they are) agree upon.

I did find evidence that at least a portion of people are susceptible to concocting vivid fantasies, which they then take to be reality. It seems to me that the boundary between fantasy and reality is more porous in some minds than others.

If this is the case (and I’m willing to be challenged on it), then what Mary Ruwart and her peers are doing is no more than collecting fantasies and presenting them as evidence for an intergalactic civilisation. This obviously has a moral dimension too, as if she’s wrong, as a therapist she’s causing chaos in her clients minds. I’d challenge anyone (Mary included) to disagree with that statement.

I appreciate that Mary, Bud Hopkins, David Jacobs and John Mack all come across as highly intelligent and credible. I’m sure they all are. What I observe in this area, is that one or two small errors in the foundations cause perfectly intelligent people to spin off in wild directions.

Finally, nothing I’ve said contradicts the claim that aliens are here and actively abducting people. I’m not taking a position on this. I am only calling into question the use of hypnosis to recover memories of those abductions, or anything else.

Brother, has anybody every postulated that David Ike, who was heavily involved in the media, is a fucking idiot? Fuck his reptilian shit! Everybody hates a snake, right? All bitches are terrified of lizards as well! It is hilarious how these rich, privileged assholes brainwash all of us with their so called truth serum! Furthermore, how David Ike is so injected into the so called "truth community"? How did that shit happen? This fucking clown never had to do shit in his life. Good thing that he has all his kids riding the free road with him!

 

[Nelson]

As a reptile owner of over 30 years, I can tell you that they don't conspire, ever! Furthermore, the idea that snakes are evil is the biggest human fabrication of all time! Rats conspire. Dogs conspire. Humans conspire. SNAKES DO NOT EVER FUCKING CONSPIRE! Has anybody ever seen a herd of lizards? Fuck NO!

That's an insightful point. Thank you.
I don't know what to make of the reports of aliens with a reptilian appearance. The reports are from different sources and across cultures.

I personally like lizards and snakes very much. They even have a holy type of vibe.

But that there could exist extremely intelligent beings with a reptilian appearance I don't find implausible. The reports of reptilian aliens seem to fit human-reptile hybrids.

Whoever/whatever was/is hybridising humans seems to have not cared about the taxonomy so much. There's even a lot of evidence that "humans" came about through pig, ape hybridisation. So why not a branch of humanoids that have a large amount of reptilian DNA... To a normie that probably sounds idiotic, sure. But if we take into consideration genetic studies of humans, mythology, and modern reports of radically hybridised humanoid beings, all these various methodologies and sources across time and cultures point to roughly the same thing.

 

[SnakeTurbanHead]

That's an insightful point. Thank you.
I don't know what to make of the reports of aliens with a reptilian appearance. The reports are from different sources and across cultures.

I personally like lizards and snakes very much. They even have a holy type of vibe.

But that there could exist extremely intelligent beings with a reptilian appearance I don't find implausible. The reports of reptilian aliens seem to fit human-reptile hybrids.

Whoever/whatever was/is hybridising humans seems to have not cared about the taxonomy so much. There's even a lot of evidence that "humans" came about through pig, ape hybridisation. So why not a branch of humanoids that have a large amount of reptilian DNA... To a normie that probably sounds idiotic, sure. But if we take into consideration genetic studies of humans, mythology, and modern reports of radically hybridised humanoid beings, all these various methodologies and sources across time and cultures point to roughly the same thing.

Brother, first and foremost, the beard is looking great! I am doing pretty good with my goatee as well! I will post a few pictures up here soon...trying to mach 9 that shit with my turban!

On reptilians....well, I think that people are somewhat racist towards them. David Ike, to me, is a fucking jack ass. He is the kind of guy that would piss his pants if he attempted to handle the snakes that I own. I don't like it when people demonize animals that they don't understand. Furthermore, I don't like it when people demonize demons, but hat is another discussion!

Stay free, stay real!

 

[Missing Linkz]

Hello this episode reminds of Thomas Zinser, Ed. D. Book soul centered healing.

 

[Nelson]

Brother, first and foremost, the beard is looking great! I am doing pretty good with my goatee as well! I will post a few pictures up here soon...trying to mach 9 that shit with my turban!

On reptilians....well, I think that people are somewhat racist towards them. David Ike, to me, is a fucking jack ass. He is the kind of guy that would piss his pants if he attempted to handle the snakes that I own. I don't like it when people demonize animals that they don't understand. Furthermore, I don't like it when people demonize demons, but hat is another discussion!

Stay free, stay real!

Mainly out of curiosity, do you find snakes have compassion or feelings of loyalty and warmth?

I think a lot of the anti-snake bias comes from the Hebrew bible btw.

In other cultures snakes are more ambiguous, sometimes revered, sometimes seen as not so beneficial. That's more balanced I think

 

[Nelson]

A case in point are the Naga beings described in ancient Indian culture. At least some of them are depicted as human-serpent chimeras that live in underground realms. Compare this to modern reports of reptilian humanoids in underground bases

 

[Nelson]

PS: The ancients considered the myths to contain kernels of historical truth. One of the overwhelming themes of mythology, of folklore and of modern UFO reports is hybridisation. I also think there's an important kernel of truth there.