Mitch Horowitz, Who Inspires You Satan or Jesus? |508|

Yes they are https://educate-yourself.org/cn/ciadrugsabusemurder.shtml

- and it's been implied on Skeptiko podcasts many times.
these documents show the CIA was creating child porn and sex trafficking little kids for blackmail.
I agree with Alex on this, and assume the trafficking is created/managed FOR blackmail. The MKULTRA effect on the trafficking victims seems at best a side hustle. I assume that the bulk of the MKULTRA is carried out by Hollywood, Netfilx, and by child hypnotizers like AOC.
Example: Recent cartoon show on Amazon "Invincible" which first episode clearly starts out as directed at children, but the end of the episode is the clearest example of MKULTRA 'cracking the egg' (if you will) obviously intended to initiate a trauma bond. DO NOT WATCH the whole thing if you have a weak stomach. Keep in mind probably mostly kids are watching this.

 
I agree with Alex on this, and assume the trafficking is created/managed FOR blackmail. The MKULTRA effect on the trafficking victims seems at best a side hustle. I assume that the bulk of the MKULTRA is carried out by Hollywood, Netfilx, and by child hypnotizers like AOC.
Example: Recent cartoon show on Amazon "Invincible" which first episode clearly starts out as directed at children, but the end of the episode is the clearest example of MKULTRA 'cracking the egg' (if you will) obviously intended to initiate a trauma bond. DO NOT WATCH the whole thing if you have a weak stomach. Keep in mind probably mostly kids are watching this.

A cartoon?

Alex said the documents he linked show the CIA participation in The Finders pedophilia cult. I scanned through those documents. Maybe I missed it, but I didn't see what Alex says they contain. To the contrary, there are statements that allegations of CIA and FBI involvement was not proved and was dismissed.

Either the documents state what Alex says they do or not. I don't care about dumb theories proposed in a cartoon.
 
I'd be curious to see this in the source documents as well.
The links are right up there (a few comments up) in Alex's comment. I've been through them once.

This is one of those crossroads - and I'm willing to bet that few conspiracy theorists will comb through the documents to settle this matter. Either I'm right or Alex is on this particular issue. If the proof of a conspiracy is in those documents, then get on it. Point it out. If it isn't, then admit that CIA involvement is just a paranoid fantasy. For the CSers it is psychologically easier to avoid the documents and still cling to their CS. That is too bad because it discredits people who are pointing to real conspiracies and other real and important fringe topics, like life after death, psi, consciousness...etc
 
another day and still only the sound of crickets.....

…..This article sees it as I do - so someone else who has looked at the FBI releases and weighed them against the conspiracy theory and found the CS wanting - https://www.vice.com/en/article/7x5...t-zero-for-epstein-and-pizzagate-conspiracies

It's funny how everything since the conclusion of WW2 - when the CIA formed - is caused by the CIA; Kennedy, satanic cults, Unibomber, Manson - as if pre WW2 there were neither cults nor crazy fuckers doing exactly the same thing.

If Mormonism started after WW2 the CSers would have the CIA involved in that too. Maybe putting a holographic talking salamander out in the woods behind Joseph Smith's house and dosing Smith's tea with LSD. Because nothing after WW2 happens by accident. The omniscient and all powerful CIA is actually capable of controlling everything! Amazing! God like abilities! Before WW2, well that was a long a time ago when shit just happened and there were actually natural born crazy psychos.
 

Alex

Administrator
hmmm...so far the lonely, yet soothing, sound of crickets at night in the wilderness.
sorry for not responding sooner. I was out of pocket for a bit.

Eric, no one is going to spoon-feed you the evidence and wait for you to call uncle. you havn't done the work.

They arrested these mother f****** in tallahassee. it led them to a warehouse in DC that was run by a CIA guy. the warehouse was full of child porn. martinez was told to look the other way because it was a CIA operation but he said " not on my watch."


John Brisson has hundreds of hrs of investigation into this include interviews w/ folks directly involved.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC7vqQJCxvXl2tZ_V5P-gYJQ

John Brisson, Finders Cult or Another Epsteinesque ... - Skeptiko

( I suggest you post further comments in the above-mentioned thread as john extensively covers all the evidence during our conversation)
 
One thing is very clear, Epstein had a lot of money to set up his island and presumably pay off those who were curious. The question is where this money came from. I have always assumed some organisation was using videos of the activities on the island to blackmail politicians.

David
 
sorry for not responding sooner. I was out of pocket for a bit.

Eric, no one is going to spoon-feed you the evidence and wait for you to call uncle. you havn't done the work.

They arrested these mother f****** in tallahassee. it led them to a warehouse in DC that was run by a CIA guy. the warehouse was full of child porn. martinez was told to look the other way because it was a CIA operation but he said " not on my watch."


John Brisson has hundreds of hrs of investigation into this include interviews w/ folks directly involved.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC7vqQJCxvXl2tZ_V5P-gYJQ

John Brisson, Finders Cult or Another Epsteinesque ... - Skeptiko

( I suggest you post further comments in the above-mentioned thread as john extensively covers all the evidence during our conversation)
Alex,
Now you're moving the goal posts. You said the documentation to support your stance is right there in the FBI links you provided. It is not (at least I didn't see it and you can't point to it).

I'm not asking to be spoon fed. That's a dodge on your part. Show one piece of incontrovertible evidence. Heck, show me one piece of mostly solid evidence. Just one.

Now you want to pass me off to the Brisson material. I listened to that podcast. I do not find Brisson convincing. He's just another conspiracy theorist arriving at conclusions based on flimsy connections of dots.

Members of the cult were arrested in Tallahassee with three children. True. What does that have to do with the CIA? The cult members were then released because, weird as the situation was, ultimately no crime was found to have been committed. The cult members were just like, "Yeah, we share our children and these two men had permission to be with these three". So they covered for each other. Sickos, yes, but the law demands proof of a crime and that was absent.

Then the cult was investigated anyhow. Much is known about it. There was no CIA connection other than a single vague statement made by a junior customs officer. We have no official documentation containing anything like what the junior customs officer is alleged to have said. The FBI docs you told me to look at do not support the CIA involvement. In fact they specifically address the allegation and they dismiss it based on its lack of merit.

I don't consider statements, from Brisson, like, "Supposedly video cassettes and pictures out of the warehouse that contained child pornography that Martinez and Harold never were able to look at again, uh, to verify that." That "supposedly" constitutes rumor, not fact, in my world. In conspiracy theory land, it seems to be proof.

The cult leader's wife had allegedly once worked as a secretary for the CIA (whatever that means, exactly). Let's assume, for a minute, that she was, at one time, a secretary at Langley. So what? That's proof of something? There were lot's a secretaries at Langley. When you live in the beltway area, most everyone you meet, other than bums, are military or government employees at some level. It's like setting up a cult in Des Moines, Iowa and hold on to your hats, there are connections to, surprise, surprise, farmers!!

Other than that you and Brisson are just supporting each others' conspiratorial fantasies about how things work with conjecture and flights of fancy. Not even close to anything like proof AFAIC.

BTW, I do not have a high opinion of the CIA and an even lower opinion of the FBI and, indeed, big government in general. These days, my opinion of the military (leadership) is not favorable.

All organizations, no matter how virtuous and needed they may have been at inception, will degenerate over time because they consist of people and people are corrupt. This is especially true when organizations grow too big and continue long after their original purpose is no longer required. It's even worse when it's government because the cool rationality presented by a bottom line is absent. Without it, accountability goes out the window. The IC is guilty of much evil. For example, allowing the Iraq war based on known stupid allegations of WMD. So I'm open minded. But if you want me to believe something as far fetched as the IC running a pedo ring, then you're going to have to offer up something more than Brisson's conjecturing.
 
Last edited:
One thing is very clear, Epstein had a lot of money to set up his island and presumably pay off those who were curious. The question is where this money came from. I have always assumed some organisation was using videos of the activities on the island to blackmail politicians.

David
I assume Epstein was a deal maker, a broker, a connection maker. That is where his money came from. He'd get a commission for bringing the right people together and making things happen. He'd also get insider tips that allowed him to make wildly successful investments.

IMO, the girls were just party favors. There were probably many other types of treats available. Whatever it takes to help your guests/clients become comfortable and have a good time. The girls were not being raped. They volunteered. They were the 16 going on 32 type. I don't approve, but it's not like they were really "children" and it's not like they were kidnapped and raped. A hundred years ago or so, these girls were marrying age. In many countries today, they would still be.

I find the whole intelligence agency blackmail scheme theory to be based on watching too many Hollywood movies.

Yes, I think Epstein was killed. However, not for the reasons that people think.
 
Last edited:
IMO, the girls were just party favors. There were probably many other types of treats available. Whatever it takes to help your guests/clients become comfortable and have a good time. The girls were not being raped. They volunteered. They were the 16 going on 32 type. I don't approve, but it's not like they were really "children" and it's not like they were kidnapped and raped. A hundred years ago or so, these girls were marrying age. In many countries today, they would still be.

I find the whole intelligence agency blackmail scheme theory to be based on watching too many Hollywood movies.
So… Epstein has volumes on powerful people taking advantage of 16 year olds and “dies” (switcharoo/disappears) right at the peak of the #MeToo and…

I can’t.

What’s your cause for the level of vouching you do for creeps?
 
So… Epstein has volumes on powerful people taking advantage of 16 year olds and “dies” (switcharoo/disappears) right at the peak of the #MeToo and…

I can’t.

What’s your cause for the level of vouching you do for creeps?
Has it not occurred to you that Epstein had such a long successful run of it because he was discreet and did not threaten his clients? If he was blackmailing all of those powerful people all along he 1. Would not have had so many powerful friends/clients 2. Would have been killed long ago.

You can't have it both ways. Either there is a small elite group of movers and shakers that are sufficiently competent and ruthless to pull all of the strings and to conspire together in doing so; or there are just a bunch of wealthy degenerates in a loosely organized country club, at best, with no intra-club discussion or planning, that indulge their most base desires at every turn and are so weak and powerless that Epstein could control them for years.

I'm not "vouching" for anyone. How could you come to that conclusion? Analysis is not advocacy.

Skeptiko, where open minded thinking is encouraged......as long as the conclusion is always that the "official narrative" is wrong and that the CIA is behind it.
 
Has it not occurred to you that Epstein had such a long successful run of it because he was discreet and did not threaten his clients? If he was blackmailing all of those powerful people all along he 1. Would not have had so many powerful friends/clients 2. Would have been killed long ago.

You can't have it both ways. Either there is a small elite group of movers and shakers that are sufficiently competent and ruthless to pull all of the strings and to conspire together in doing so; or there are just a bunch of wealthy degenerates in a loosely organized country club, at best, with no intra-club discussion or planning, that indulge their most base desires at every turn and are so weak and powerless that Epstein could control them for years.

I'm not "vouching" for anyone. How could you come to that conclusion? Analysis is not advocacy.

Skeptiko, where open minded thinking is encouraged......as long as the conclusion is always that the "official narrative" is wrong and that the CIA is behind it.
I don’t speak for Skeptiko.
I was just triggered by the normalizing tone you used to take the side of creepy billionaires against young confused girls.
Your arguments are substantial, but they don’t seem to aim toward the social norm. Older dudes with 18 y/o’s is like borderline creepy. Society generally voices the existence of a line there. Your argument seemed to favor lowering the bar.
 
I don’t speak for Skeptiko.
I was just triggered by the normalizing tone you used to take the side of creepy billionaires against young confused girls.
Your arguments are substantial, but they don’t seem to aim toward the social norm. Older dudes with 18 y/o’s is like borderline creepy. Society generally voices the existence of a line there. Your argument seemed to favor lowering the bar.
I understand.

For the record, I agree with you about the confused girls. I think that adults have a responsibility to treat girls like that appropriately even if the girls are bent on involving themselves in unsavory behaviors. Unfortunately, too many adults have no honor or decency when afforded the opportunity to commit sins in secrecy. That isn't just elites. It's every class in society. More 16 year olds are involved in sex with adults in trailer parks and blue collar neighborhoods than in DC or Epstein's island.

That said, we cannot arrive at truth and understanding if there are analytical paths we can't go down because we fear personal attacks on our character for doing so. It is important to understand that Epstein and his clients were technically, under the law, involved in pedophilia. However, the girls were voluntary participants and they weren't exactly innocent little children. That is an meaningful nuance to developing an understanding of the situation.
 
I understand.

For the record, I agree with you about the confused girls. I think that adults have a responsibility to treat girls like that appropriately even if the girls are bent on involving themselves in unsavory behaviors. Unfortunately, too many adults have no honor or decency when afforded the opportunity to commit sins in secrecy. That isn't just elites. It's every class in society. More 16 year olds are involved in sex with adults in trailer parks and blue collar neighborhoods than in DC or Epstein's island.

That said, we cannot arrive at truth and understanding if there are analytical paths we can't go down because we fear personal attacks on our character for doing so. It is important to understand that Epstein and his clients were technically, under the law, involved in pedophilia. However, the girls were voluntary participants and they weren't exactly innocent little children. That is an meaningful nuance to developing an understanding of the situation.
Excellent retort. That's a worthy argument and I'm happy to engage.

The immediate red flag that shoots up on your premise is:
Would it not be extremely high national security concern of all military and 3-letter agencies that sufficient vetting measures be taken with any "entertainment" supplied to a US President, and interrelated others of similar critical standing, to root out any potential for blackmail?

Perfect Example:
Multiple billions were (perhaps not spent, but) aimed at Trump near the end of 2016 and the absolute worst offense that was brought to light was I believe audio recording of jockish locker room banter bragging about grabbing Women by the pussy.

Genuine ask:
What does it tell You personally when you see certain famous people brandishing their seeming immunity to revelations of social violations far worse than jockish banter. Does this not raise a Hunger Games red flag for you?
 
Excellent retort. That's a worthy argument and I'm happy to engage.

The immediate red flag that shoots up on your premise is:
Would it not be extremely high national security concern of all military and 3-letter agencies that sufficient vetting measures be taken with any "entertainment" supplied to a US President, and interrelated others of similar critical standing, to root out any potential for blackmail?

Perfect Example:
Multiple billions were (perhaps not spent, but) aimed at Trump near the end of 2016 and the absolute worst offense that was brought to light was I believe audio recording of jockish locker room banter bragging about grabbing Women by the pussy.

Genuine ask:
What does it tell You personally when you see certain famous people brandishing their seeming immunity to revelations of social violations far worse than jockish banter. Does this not raise a Hunger Games red flag for you?
That is a great question.

Bill Clinton was a known offender when he was running for POTUS; indeed, he was a known offender when he was still Gov of Arkansas. There is nothing the security apparatus can do about vetting private citizens. The biggest scum bag in the world can become POTUS if The People vote for him/her. Even a corrupt senile person that represents a real threat to our country can be President.

Vetting only occurs for employees of the intelligence community (including military aspects of it, like the DIA). These agencies have no jurisdiction over civilians not employed by them or applying for employment*. From personal experience, I question the thoroughness of the vetting in some cases. These agencies are not the omniscient super spies that some believe them to be.

Not sure about Hunger Games (never saw it), but as far as elites flaunting this kind of behavior, that's what elites do. Part of the psychology that leads people to become elites is that they think they're better than everyone else. Just look at Obama's recent maskless crowded birthday bash, or other leaders who are caught blatantly violating the covid rules that they demand the rest of us follow. "Let them eat cake".

As for targeting Trump - disgusting. The intelligence community and FBI/DOJ have been weaponized against opponents of the rising fascist state. Bush Jr. started this, perhaps accidentally, after 9/11 and Obama very much deliberately accelerated the process. He thoroughly polluted all of these agencies with party ideologues. This is unprecedented. Yes, Trump must be as clean as they come if all they could dig up was the silly pussy grabbing and then they had to manufacture a Russian collusion myth.

* One of the aspects of The Finders story that doesn't add up for me is the one investigator who allegedly found incriminating evidence in a Finders warehouse and then said the CIA shut down the investigation at that point because they said they were handling it. Well, the CIA is not a criminal investigative agency, nor do they officially operate domestically. They don't do that. Why would the investigator even notify them/clear jurisdiction with them? He wouldn't. There is much to that aspect of the story that raises my red flags (as in the lone investigator was BSing or he's been misquoted).
 
Last edited:
I assume Epstein was a deal maker, a broker, a connection maker. That is where his money came from. He'd get a commission for bringing the right people together and making things happen. He'd also get insider tips that allowed him to make wildly successful investments.

IMO, the girls were just party favors. There were probably many other types of treats available. Whatever it takes to help your guests/clients become comfortable and have a good time. The girls were not being raped. They volunteered. They were the 16 going on 32 type. I don't approve, but it's not like they were really "children" and it's not like they were kidnapped and raped. A hundred years ago or so, these girls were marrying age. In many countries today, they would still be.

I find the whole intelligence agency blackmail scheme theory to be based on watching too many Hollywood movies.

Yes, I think Epstein was killed. However, not for the reasons that people think.
We are going to have to differ on that. The law has to set a minimum age for such activity, and that age varies from country to country, but it is important to realise that Gislaine Maxwell picked up those girls using the fact that she was a woman, and took them to that island using one excuse or another. I expect many of those girls feared for their lives so it isn't reasonable to suggest they consented. I'd like to see Gislaine and Price Andrew do many years of jail time for what they did.

David
 
Top