PMH Atwater, NDE Reseacher |586|

Andrew Paquette said:
... ability to hone in on the critical weak point in an interviewee's narrative.


Healthy paranoia [[cb]] I have a habit of looking for the critical weak point in my own narrative. I'm embarrassed myself way too many times
Always will be and forever a legend to me, my brother! In life, we really can see how narratives and so forth, definitions, are entrapments. To free yourself is to shed your own skin, over and over again. You truly are remarkable at what you do!
 
This is so very very sad for those of us that have experienced a nde. For years I have silently wondered about her as my story was included in one of her books, years ago, & basically it was me telling my story. I could have lied about it, as there were “no cop questions” from her. Just tell your story. NDEs are subjective/personal, unless some testing ground had been set up, which for me @ the time was not. I could not prove to anyone else that it was true reality. I think in many of her books she uses data which she did not gather but made up. I believe the only reason that so many take her words as truth based on real research is due to her years working at IANDS, albeit with no wage. No one questions her due to that, & her confidence. Again it is sad. I wanted to say something earlier but I was indisposed due to chemo & surgery. It makes me very sad, as people that do these kinds of things ruin it for those that experienced something that is difficult to prove. Just makes my experience, as well as many others, hard for a non-experience, to believe.
 
This is so very very sad for those of us that have experienced a nde. For years I have silently wondered about her as my story was included in one of her books, years ago, & basically it was me telling my story. I could have lied about it, as there were “no cop questions” from her. Just tell your story. NDEs are subjective/personal, unless some testing ground had been set up, which for me @ the time was not. I could not prove to anyone else that it was true reality. I think in many of her books she uses data which she did not gather but made up. I believe the only reason that so many take her words as truth based on real research is due to her years working at IANDS, albeit with no wage. No one questions her due to that, & her confidence. Again it is sad. I wanted to say something earlier but I was indisposed due to chemo & surgery. It makes me very sad, as people that do these kinds of things ruin it for those that experienced something that is difficult to prove. Just makes my experience, as well as many others, hard for a non-experience, to believe.

Thank you for sharing this important perspective. it helps to hear it from someone who was directly involved... and directly impacted.

I think it's especially sad because pmh had an important contribution to make in turning our attention to nde after effects. would you agree with this or do you see it differently?
 
Yes, she has helped in that respect. She has brought after affects into the limelight, however once again, I think those have been overblown. Has anyone looked into her research? Just based on my own story & how it was not researched, makes me wonder. Again, yes it is difficult to prove a subjective experience however she didn’t even try. Had she dug more into it she would have noticed the amount of time I was in recovery or the bruising on my ribs (left side), or the 9 bags of Benadryl administered during that time.
I have a morphine allergy. i saw the anesthesiologist months prior to my surgery. It wasn’t until the day of the surgery that the anesthesiologist that was to put me under said that they didn’t know what to give me after, for the pain. He said they would try just “a little”. I was there 7am I believe, when the conversation took place, just before wheeling me into surgery. I did not get back to a room, from recovery, after 5pm. That was back in 2002. They did not confess to my flatlining. As you can imagine, they would leave themselves open to a lawsuit, however my records show the amnount of Benadryl, & my own family doctor notes the bruising under my left breast. Something HAD HAPPENED.
I expected her to ask & delve into all of this. Again, she didn’t ask to see my medical records or speak with my family doctor, which would have at least proven that something had happened, which was being covered up as no where did it say that I had flat-lined. That flat-lining was the beginning of my nde. I remember it clearly even now. I even remember researching & finding out that hearing is the last to go, which for me was the sound of the monitors delivering a steady beeping sound.
This to me, in my humble opinion, it tells me that there are other claims that have not been investigated but included in her books. The whole white crow scenario.
I hate to bring her reputation under question, but I am stating what happened when it came to me telling my story to her, which never was researched. She has been instrumental in bringing the after effects into the public’s eyes, but as you yourself said Alex, if you say you researched it then prove it. WHAT did you research beyond someone telling their story? In my case medical records would have been #1, which I would have more than happily signed off on. I don’t want to sue the hospital, but to prove to others that my experience did happen.
 
I forgot to mention that my surgery was for gall stones, where they removed my gall bladder. It was a surgery that should have taken only a couple of hours according to the doctors at the time.
 
As I sat listening to this strangely curtailed interview, there were moments when I imagined sweat beads forming on the brow of poor Ms. Atwater. I pictured the guest squirming atop the hot seat as her 'interrogator' kept pressing her for secret info. Only it wasn't any microfilm that Alex was after, but scientific goods. The interviewee tries to explain that she's not a scientist, but her 'inquisitor' will have none of it.

Paraphrasing here: Give me the data. / I, I, I have it filed away in storage boxes. / C'mon, ma'am, do you think I was born yesterday? You never heard the expression about extraordinary claims? / Look, I've been doing this research for forty years. I've disposed of all the boxes, but one. / Do you or do you not have the data? / Uh...boxes...yes...well...hm...you see, there, there really aren't any.

What I personally found difficult to believe (aside from what another commenter has also noted above, about the voodoo practitioner meeting up with Jesus on the other side) was the mentioned case study in which the subject allegedly experienced something like 17 NDEs before the age of 10! Is that even humanly possible?

Frankly, I'm surprised that Atwater was even invited on the show as her work in the NDE field has always been a little on the flaky side. In one of her first books on the subject, you get talk of chakras, kundalini, 'animal heaven,' time-traveling in one's astral body, and then there's those alleged memories of hers about having been an alien in another life. Surely Alex must have known prior to this truncated interview that Atwater is not the most scientific minded among NDE researchers?

Re: Intelligence quotient. I do recall this point also being brought out by Melvin Morse and so I went and checked and sure enough in Closer To The Light Morse himself speaks, however briefly, of intelligence level increasing among some near-death experiencers...but this book is focused primarily on NDEs as they relate to children and so I'm not sure how this finding even pertains given the context.

I’m always very skeptical of people who claim to have had a bunch of NDE’s. There’s a self proclaimed Guru who I am friends with on Facebook who’s “about me” info reads “6 time NDEr and afterlife expert.” I’m also very skeptical of people who claim to be afterlife experts. There are none.
 
And in the Skeptiko interview beginning around 7:00 min mark, the story about 3 people who reportedly hadn't even heard the name Jesus but heard this name in NDEs... It also sounds fishy to me.

These three mutual strangers reportedly were so culturally removed from Christianity that they didn't even know Christianity or the Bible exists, yet they hear the name "Jesus" in their NDEs, and somehow they get in touch with PMH Atwater......

It sounds sketchy
I’d guess that the only people on this planet who have not heard of Jesus on this planet are people of the few remaining tribes who have only had contact with people of the developed world a couple of times, like the Sentinelese. These people have had recorded contact with other people 2-3 times, once killing a missionary who went there to convert them to Christianity. Being that we know nothing of the language that they speak, I’m willing to bet that he didnt drive the name of Jesus home to them.

As an interesting (off topic) aside, I think the only other two contacts with them were when resesrchers took a boat near their beach and threw melons towards them and they went on to collect these melons and then peacefully walked away. Another time a helicopter flew over them, theres actually video footage of this, and centered the helicopter over a male who began shooting arrows at them. Imagine having no technological advancements and then trying to comprehend a helicopter flying over you. Their island is protected and people are technically not allowed to go there. They’ll continue living the way thay they do. And maybe, MAYBE they’re all happier than we are.
 
Yes, she has helped in that respect. She has brought after affects into the limelight, however once again, I think those have been overblown. Has anyone looked into her research? Just based on my own story & how it was not researched, makes me wonder. Again, yes it is difficult to prove a subjective experience however she didn’t even try. Had she dug more into it she would have noticed the amount of time I was in recovery or the bruising on my ribs (left side), or the 9 bags of Benadryl administered during that time.
I have a morphine allergy. i saw the anesthesiologist months prior to my surgery. It wasn’t until the day of the surgery that the anesthesiologist that was to put me under said that they didn’t know what to give me after, for the pain. He said they would try just “a little”. I was there 7am I believe, when the conversation took place, just before wheeling me into surgery. I did not get back to a room, from recovery, after 5pm. That was back in 2002. They did not confess to my flatlining. As you can imagine, they would leave themselves open to a lawsuit, however my records show the amnount of Benadryl, & my own family doctor notes the bruising under my left breast. Something HAD HAPPENED.
I expected her to ask & delve into all of this. Again, she didn’t ask to see my medical records or speak with my family doctor, which would have at least proven that something had happened, which was being covered up as no where did it say that I had flat-lined. That flat-lining was the beginning of my nde. I remember it clearly even now. I even remember researching & finding out that hearing is the last to go, which for me was the sound of the monitors delivering a steady beeping sound.
This to me, in my humble opinion, it tells me that there are other claims that have not been investigated but included in her books. The whole white crow scenario.
I hate to bring her reputation under question, but I am stating what happened when it came to me telling my story to her, which never was researched. She has been instrumental in bringing the after effects into the public’s eyes, but as you yourself said Alex, if you say you researched it then prove it. WHAT did you research beyond someone telling their story? In my case medical records would have been #1, which I would have more than happily signed off on. I don’t want to sue the hospital, but to prove to others that my experience did happen.

Thank you for sharing these details. I think it's very important to get this in the public record. I think pmh's " reputation" is the last thing we should worry about at this point. She has an obligation as a researcher to do better.

Is there anything you would like me to do? Would you like me to ask pmh to respond specifically to this case? I could ask for to do so through email and let her know tell her it will be posted on the skeptiko Forum. Would you like me to make your case more publicly known?
 
I’m always very skeptical of people who claim to have had a bunch of NDE’s.

I definitely hear ya... then again, this is tricky... I've talked to several people who legitimately have had multiple ndes.

There’s a self proclaimed Guru who I am friends with on Facebook who’s “about me” info reads “6 time NDEr and afterlife expert.” I’m also very skeptical of people who claim to be afterlife experts. There are none.

Couldn't agree more! Just did an interview with someone who I like and respect within the nde community... I really hammered her on this point by challenging the idea of "experiencer."

first off, we're all experiencers... we are all trying to figure out how our little life drama / VR simulation fits in the bigger picture. Secondly, no matter what you experienced in those other realms, you're not there now! And I bet if I poke at you a little bit we're going to find that you're making some of the same silly mistakes that were all making. So much for your experience [[p]]
 
I have stage 4 ovarian cancer. Been thru 6 chemo of 5 hrs each & major surgery. This all since end of July last year. I cannot remember the book in which she told my story. As well, the hospital I go to is the same hospital that I still go to, so not a good idea to stir the pot at this point. I am operating at very low energy & don’t know if I have it in me to hear basically the same thing she gave you. I don’t know if I have it in me to argue with her, & treat her with respect, as you have, if she starts with the same reasoning. She definitely isn’t Bruce Greyson, & I am sure I would get that, as well as it was over 20 years ago, so her boxes would have been thrown out. I would only be opening myself up to more stress, which I believe is what caused this cancer & I am trying to avoid. I should have done this sooner but a busy life got in the way. Now that I can & should say something, the same thing that has given me that time has also taken a lot of my energy away. The old me would have looked forward to righting a wrong. I do hope she reads her reviews on this forum.
Please forgive me Alex. I just wanted you to know that you were not wrong with the inkling you had in your mind about her. Perhaps you should follow the trail? Take up the fight as they say? I just don’t know what we can do due to my circumstances right now. Thank you for bringing this out in the light though! You were absolutely correct in calling her out.
 
I have stage 4 ovarian cancer. Been thru 6 chemo of 5 hrs each & major surgery. This all since end of July last year. I cannot remember the book in which she told my story. As well, the hospital I go to is the same hospital that I still go to, so not a good idea to stir the pot at this point. I am operating at very low energy & don’t know if I have it in me to hear basically the same thing she gave you. I don’t know if I have it in me to argue with her, & treat her with respect, as you have, if she starts with the same reasoning. She definitely isn’t Bruce Greyson, & I am sure I would get that, as well as it was over 20 years ago, so her boxes would have been thrown out. I would only be opening myself up to more stress, which I believe is what caused this cancer & I am trying to avoid. I should have done this sooner but a busy life got in the way. Now that I can & should say something, the same thing that has given me that time has also taken a lot of my energy away. The old me would have looked forward to righting a wrong. I do hope she reads her reviews on this forum.
Please forgive me Alex. I just wanted you to know that you were not wrong with the inkling you had in your mind about her. Perhaps you should follow the trail? Take up the fight as they say? I just don’t know what we can do due to my circumstances right now. Thank you for bringing this out in the light though! You were absolutely correct in calling her out.

would you be ok w/ me sending pmh a link to this thread. I'm totally okay with capital and not doing this if you prefer.
 
Just curious, but are these people who have some type of chronic illness/condition that continually requires intervention to restart their hearts?

Actually not. As you will hear... she was a little kid, slipped underneath a train... Nde1. Dad driving... Terrible car accident... Almost everyone in the family died -- nde2. She was a passenger in a small plane and it crashed in a lake in Canada -- nde3. Really bad slip and fall on black ice -- nde4
 
I thought this was interesting considering the questions that have now been raised regarding PMH’s “research”

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/...nts-year-survived-near-death-experiences.html

===
here is the full study:
https://ccforum.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s13054-023-04348-2
seems agenda driven to me... hope they come on.

here's Greyson's 2022 paper they seem to have been targeting:
https://med.virginia.edu/perceptual...ce_of_Attitude_Changes_After_Near_Death.9.pdf

but I don't see where they followed the same methods.


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They were interviewed three to seven days after discharge from the hospital and asked about dissociative experiences, such as forgetting who they were or feeling disconnected from themselves. They were also asked about spiritual, religious, and personal beliefs.

At the time patients were initially interviewed, those who had a near-death experience experienced a greater propensity for dissociative symptoms.

These included feeling disconnected from oneself, feeling little to no pain, and feeling uncertain about who you are - and increased spiritual and personal well-being.
-----

Boy oh boy would I love to have these folks on. if you feel so inclined, please reach out to them on my behalf. email me if they're down for it and I will follow up.
 
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