Puzzling NDE questions

#21
If we want an explanation rooted here for the whole "you must go back thing" it really isn't necessary to ponder anything more fanciful than a drive to survival. It's already a complete account and we don't need to add to it with ancillary assumptions.
Nah...
 
#22
Hello respected Boo boo and Kai,

I was expecting "abuse by words" from others towards my insane sentences, but most of forum members are very kind and rational and knowledgeable, only expressing constructive opinions. You are very kind and understanding. Thank you!


I don't mind the supposed abuse or insult, if there would be any, I would welcome to see how adamantine some believers cling to their fairy tales.
At least my sanity lays in the sense of that, I do not claim I'm right or cling to my opinions at all. I may be totally wrong.
Similar to the motives behind reckless believers' cling, that is to defend their fancy wonderlands, I also have a bias to reject anything sounds sweet. I lament on that there are too many reckless camouflaged fairy tales, simply because I'm unhappy and super angst and trapped in dilemma in my real life!

I also doubt this possible perspective:
"All will disappear" justifies the ultimate meaninglessness of everything including plan, unfairness, unravelled puzzles, questions, answers, bewilderment, stray, confusions, etc.

I know nothing! I make no affirmatives. There is no evidence to deny it as well as to sustain it.

After all, if God also has a plan for me, and requires me to serve a purpose (I feel I have not done well and have been trapped and am incapable and incompetent to fulfil whatever purpose), I sense my blindly unaware of any of the answers to those questions including those relevant to my personal issues and experiences, and my being littered in this center of desert of super befuddlement, are all parts of that plan.

In other words, I lament here, there, in this way, that way, because I'm trapped and could not find any answer or method, is necessary for the part of that purpose relating to me.
I am actually eager and thirst for that there truly is such a plan, which could possibly backup an answer to my suffering, even if it doesn't care about my suffering. I just want an answer, tell me why then I can swallow the bitterness more efficiently.
But if I could know, all my suffering would have been drastically alleviated which means I then won't continue to suffer at all, and so my task will remain unfinished.
Either I have no task at all meaning I and my suffering are meaningless piteous bugs, or I have a purpose to serve by my suffering and struggling while I must remain in unknowing and so fumble in the darkness, even if this can be a trapping and result in my fumble inefficient.
The only thing I'm sure is that I don't know a bit.

Sincerely wish you all good luck.
 
#24
Tarantulanebula:

I suspect that our "human" reality is not sustained for long post mortem and we become somewhat different in nature. At the very least that human-ness with the bad stuff cleaved away. And in fact this is one fairly consistent feature of NDEs, even to the point where people have expressed that they found it impossible to initiate a negative thought there.
 
#25
What I'm interested in hearing from nde, is the part sounds not sweet.
I have read many nde accounts, a noticeable portion of which mentioned evil.
For example, some nders said they can distinguish evil person from good person after their experiences, like there is a divine guidance resulting from their nde, to instruct them who to keep away as well as who to get along.
Some nders mentioned there are innate evil people, pure evil, who will go to places different from good people, after the end of their earthly life. So the afterlife is probably a vast region which can be divided into drastically different domains, some are heavenly, some are hellish, some are even unfathomable.

One nder said during his obe he observed many mundane people from above, and sensed their tremendous fear, meanwhile he himself was in a bit fear but the fear of some of the people he observed is tremendously augmented version of that of his own. He sensed those people's foreboding, sinister and ominous.

If there could truly be afterlife, I tend to believe it should be complex rather than simply beautiful, which means there could be conspiracy there, just like in our intricate and not-so-friendly earthly life.

The tone in several earlier posts of mine is a bit like that of Susan Blackmoor's, I personally deem. Don't know how to describe, the tone of impatient, impolite, harsh, ironical, sarcastic, cynical, etc, examples of Chinese words for them are:
焦躁 breathlessly impatient, in a rampageous temperament, speaks overwhelming heavy-meaning words while having intolerant attitude to the others interruption
毒舌 venomous tongue which speaks bitterness and darkness rather than kind, bright, solace words, and so hurts or infringes naive persons' moods of loitering in fairy tales

In my opinion, Susan Blackmoor's this attitude towards paranormal is partially due to her long time researching in this domain but has found no ideal result.
Speaking not very properly, it is similar to that when someone finds he has been deceived for 20 years and then generates a hatred to all the dupers he will deem in the future, and the vengeful psychology will shield himself from being duped one more time.
But, using this impatient attitude, I think, will probably prevent the person, who originally intended to share something with the speaker, from sharing something deep in his heart cozily.
However, I understand Susan Blackmoor's attitude and the tone of her speech, I also sometimes be impatient about reckless believers' fairy tales.
 
#26
Your ideas are intelligent and interesting Max. I just think they're an unnecessary stretch, and especially in a case like this.
Obviously I'm going to disagree, :D if I didn't think they were necessary, I wouldn't have come up with them...

... but then you'd have to understand, that any ideas I've come up with have to explain my own unique childhood OBE. If any particular explanation doesn't provide a way of explaining that experience, I have to discount it.

If you've not had such an experience, I fully understand why you wouldn't appreciate where I'm coming from. I've had forty years to try and understand it, and the only explanation that makes any sense is that the experience was not mine.
 
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#27
Tarantulanebula,

That's a bit of a wad of text to be honest. While I have found some of Blackmore's points interesting,historically, she's never struck me as a particularly deep thinker.
 
#28
Obviously I'm going to disagree, :D if I didn't think they were necessary, I wouldn't have come up with them...

... but then you'd have to understand, that any ideas I've come up with have to explain my own unique childhood OBE. If any particular explanation doesn't provide a way of explaining that experience, I have to discount it.

If you've not had such an experience, I fully understand why you wouldn't appreciate where I'm coming from. I've had forty years to try and understand it, and the only explanation that makes any sense is that the experience was not mine.
Well, I'm just not seeing any reason to consider them necessary with respect to "you must go back." Also, the sort of influence that may in part act to "pull people back" could be almost anything. But I think it's a persuasional drama acted out inside the person's own expanded psyche, whether or not they have significant others hoping for their return.
 
#29
I've had forty years to try and understand it, and the only explanation that makes any sense is that the experience was not mine.
Hello respected Max_B,
My reply will be about somethings I'm interested in but difficult for me to express, mostly because of English tense, subjunctive mood, hypothetic constructions, etc, if it will annoy you please feel free to ignore them, anyway, wish you succeed in finding the answers. :)

I also have read many obe accounts. I think they are very interesting, during a period of time I wanted to experience obe by myself every night before I went to sleep, but, as expected, nothing happened.
One thing I ponder about obe, is that, whether the person in their obe, has totally free will and control over their experience, especially over their movement.

In my dreams, I didn't have free will, or control over my movement - movement in my thoughts. My brain activities were unfolding and proceeding not in the same way when I was awake and sober. In the daytime my major concerns were my work, and during lunch I could have appreciation to the pretty girl I like in my company, she was petite and joyful, and definitely adorable. I didn't mean to chase her just liked to see a purely happy girl. Wow, an innocent girl's brightness without a taint is the most soothing elixir on this earth. But in my dreams I obviously forgot everything I concerned in the daytime, instead, in the beginning of the dreams, when my consciousness started to act from previous unconsciousness state I usually would find I was in a place and on my way to do something, for example in a hospital and on my way to find a specific doctor I visited previously, usually in my dream I was hurry and anxious, and sometimes even in fear, after woke up I often found my sleeping posture prevented me from breathing well or I was in some other physiological uncomfortableness, anyway, the things I worried about in my dreams seemed not the things I "should" worry about so it seemed that I did not have free will in my dreams.

If I had an obe, after I found I was above my body, floating around the ceiling of my room, and could attempt to move out of the window, more importantly I could remember what I concerned in daytime which are usually forgotten when I was in a dream, the first thing I would think, is that where to go.
I would like to visit the Jerusalem! Because I once played the computer game "Clive Barker's Jericho", which is a dark and horror science fiction game, in which the missions take place in fictitious city Jerusalem, I would like to check out whether it in the game is the same as reality Jerusalem where a lot of epic history events happened there, most of which are violent, crude and dark, for example crusades. The dark and violent medieval is good recipe and source for writing plots and scenarios of fiction works.

I think if I could control my movement to visit Jerusalem during my obe, after I'm back to my body I would believe more that this experience was mine rather than decipher from some brain-mechanism's gleaning from experiences of others. Because that would mean, during my obe, I could remember anything just like I remember when I'm sober, and also I held the same concerns as when I am sober, and I could move freely according to my "reasonable" concerns which are like those when I'm sober and unlike those when I'm dreaming. As for that pretty girl, would I like to visit her? That would be another story, as I shouldn't be a voyeur. :D
 
#30
I think the two criterion do not strictly justify whether an experience is actually experienced by the person in question, or this experience is gleaned from "public field system" by a particular brain-mechanism.
But, if in an extraordinary experience other than our wake time experiences (like obe, dreams, etc), these two criterion indeed are catered, then anyone of us may "feel strongly" that this experience is real and has actually been experienced by ourselves.

These two criterion are:
1, we remember everything same as we remember when we are in sober state.
2, we have free will, and can decide by ourselves where to go, what to check and examine, what to speak, and when we do all of these activities, we maintain and reveal the same interests, concerns, characteristics, personalities, temperaments, like and dislike, hopes, wishes, yearnings, etc, as when we are in sober state.

For example, dreams do not cater the first criterion afore mentioned, and have a discounted obedience to the second criterion afore mentioned.
I suppose this is because, part of our brain ceases functioning when we are dreaming, so does the mechanism for fetching information from memory pool, whether it is located inside our brain or outside our brain.
If one does not remember everything as when he is sober, then it is natural that he will not act fully according to these of his sober state, as following: interests, concerns, characteristics, personalities, temperaments, like and dislike, hopes, wishes, yearnings, etc.
Perhaps it is one of the reasons that dreams seem "not real" to us.

But I tend to consider dreams as actually experienced by us, just that some parts of our brain cease functioning, thus cause us unable to remember many things and unable to judge the fact of that the circumstances happening in our dreams are brain's creation rather than objective outer world.

If the two criterion are all catered, then it would mean that in whatever experience, we not only have free will, can remember our major concerns, but also have the judging ability of whether the surrounding events are created by our brain or by objective outer world (are illusory or real), and we could execute free thinking to reveal and realize these of our sober state, as following: interests, concerns, characteristics, personalities, temperaments, like and dislike, hopes, wishes, yearnings, etc.
So then, if the two criterion are all catered, we can at least put more weights on the judgement that this experience is real and actually experienced by ourselves.
 
#32
It does seem odious of course that some lives seem "charmed" while others are quite horrendous. On no account do I really believe that people "chose" those horrific lives from a menu. On the other hand I get the feeling that from the spiritual perspective, our identities here don't matter as much as we like to believe. They serve a purpose, like nails holding up a picture frame serve a purpose, but are not an end in themselves.
Bingo.

Cheers,
Bill
 
#33
1) The world within the light contains love and fulfilment a thousand, a million times greater than anything conceivable on the physical plane. That is the *real* world and by comparison, anything that happens here doesn't matter at all.

But therein lies my question...why then would anyone EVER leave a state of such ecstacy, glory, and wonder, let alone leave it to enter a state of suffering, disillusion, cancer, war, and bereavement? It seems to defy hard core sense. Of course, it is said that this is for our "spiritual evolution" but again, I would have to ask, why would we care about such a thing as "spiritual evolution" (whatever it means) if we were already living in an environment of godlike happiness and perfection.
Sensing an environment - and being integrated and participatory in it - are very different stages of being an active agent in any environment. I take a much more naturalistic view and see a purpose for physical, mental and spiritual evolution. This purpose is to be useful agent of transformation at each level and be part of a whole. I see physical, mental and spiritual environments as 3 generative levels for integration and successful participation.

Being physical is the norm; and the transformation of good food and exercise into a strong and healthy body helps one be adept at physical tasks. Natural physical evolution demands focused effort, which increases strength and skill. I think this is well understood.

Being mentally challenged and to develop analytical and abstract thinking skills is the same mode of training, only in a different environment. Mental development and the evolving mental evolution of a species makes the same strong and capable "agents of transformation", only with information, instead of material. Thinking and learning in pragmatic and constructive ways is useful and productive behavior. Just like a fit body doing physical tasks, a fit and tested mind is better able to control both its internal and external circumstances.

Why would being a spiritual agent and the evolution of the spirit of humanity be any different??? Kai - you seem to feel like the experience of "spiritual evolution" is an option or hobby for a person. You see a shiny spiritual environment ready for workers and doers - and think - well, maybe it means something to me. While not going overboard in any of the 3 generative levels - each seems to be a natural part of our environment and each requires participation and a desire to achieve. If there is a spiritual environment - its very presence is a personal challenge for each of us. Just as we are challenged to keep our bodies and minds fit and productive.

Just think -- that focusing on good intentions toward all other folks and practicing some kindness -- is like going to the gym or taking a science class with an eye on success.
 
#34
My own feeling would be that what is encountered in NDEs is in some sense the "future state" though probably outside of time, actually. Our spatio-temporal world, and the actions within it, are logically and emotionally necessary for that state to come into being. As it is "outside of time" we can end up there "now" when we die, but that doesn't dissolve its logical link to the space-time process and our role in its necessary becoming. Thus lives lived and enacted here do have a direct relationship to its existence and the possibility of its existence. If this is correct, then I think the leeway that ensures its existence is probably quite broad. However, beyond a certain threshold of digression "adjustments" of a kind may be necessary, whether it be "experiences," the birth of certain people with certain propensities and hence certain likely life paths, or direct Matrix-style "glitches" to space time itself in the case of such things as UFO encounters. There is a sense in which I glean paranormal phenomena to be the real "Adjustment Bureau."
 
#35
I have a lot of sympathy with those comments.
That's interesting, because the last time this was discussed on this forum I was banned by Andrew Paquette for drawing the conclusion that suicide is completely and unconditionally OK in light of what NDErs are reporting, and that it's also consistent with how a rational and emotionally mature afterlife would reason. Of course and obviously, I no longer hold on to these absurd ideas.

Are you going to ban Kai as well?
 
#36
That's interesting, because the last time this was discussed on this forum I was banned by Andrew Paquette for drawing the conclusion that suicide is completely and unconditionally OK in light of what NDErs are reporting, and that it's also consistent with how a rational and emotionally mature afterlife would reason. Of course and obviously, I no longer hold on to these absurd ideas.

Are you going to ban Kai as well?
To be clear, I am only a administrator to deal with the spammers! BTW, everyone - if you do see any spam, please report it, and it will be zapped!

I have no idea why he banned you, unless the context of the discussion was such that he thought you were encouraging someone to do just that.

My view is that NDE's are extremely strange, and they don't obviously fit with any simple explanation. Clearly the fact that the decision to commit suicide is part of the life in question - just as much as the decision to drive a car carelessly might be - the concept that suicide is a special case does seem odd.

David
 
#37
I have no idea why he banned you
His stated reasons were that someone could get the impression that they should commit suicide unless everyone here condemned the idea, and that they could trace this back to this forum and "that would be far worse PR for this forum than the endless rantings of the pseudo-skeptics ever could be" (he said something to that effect, I'm not quoting him word for word).

unless the context of the discussion was such that he thought you were encouraging someone to do just that.
I wasn't telling anyone to commit suicide. One user, however, got that impression and wanted me banned instantly. Andrew accommodated his request and also removed my posts in that thread. As soon as I was alerted of this I made a new account and asked why he did this and vocalized my disagreement and how upset this had made me, and this got another long term user to leave as well because he didn't want to participate in a forum which practiced such censorship of ideas. I've forgotten his name, but Ian Gordon knew him well as well. That post and account was promptly banned as well, and it took a couple of weeks until this account was unbanned. In the beginning it said I was banned for life, but it changed after a while to just a few weeks. Maybe because I contacted Alex personally about it, or maybe because Andrew mellowed out a bit. I don't know.

Either way, I never told anyone to commit suicide. I only tried to make the point that deep NDEr Nanci Danison and afterlife researcher Bob Olson has also made, that the afterlife is completely chillaxed with us taking our own life whenever we want to for whatever reason we so desire. Coming here, according to them, is just our own choice, and we're here to do whatever we want. If that is to commit suicide at any point in time, then that would be as neutral as to choose to eat a slice of pizza at any point in time - a choice we're making and an idea and/or experience we're exploring. According to them, we seemingly choose these lives for fun, for the adventure, for the experience of being a random animal in a random society in a random world and see what that's all like, etc. Something along these lines - that the afterlife has an infinitely relaxed attitude to suicide and that it's as neutral to them as us dying of old age - was what I wrote about in 3 different posts.

Obviously, I've since grown away from these ideas and come to realize that such a viewpoint is pure nonsense. In fact, I highly encourage anyone reading this who is contemplating ending their own life to seek professional help immediately. All this NDE stuff is not really serious and death really is a bad thing that should never be chosen voluntarily by anyone for any reason.

My view is that NDE's are extremely strange, and they don't obviously fit with any simple explanation. Clearly the fact that the decision to commit suicide is part of the life in question - just as much as the decision to drive a car carelessly might be - the concept that suicide is a special case does seem odd.

David
This sounds suspiciously close to thought-crime to me.
 
#39
It's an important dialog to have, and of course no one should be encouraging anyone to commit suicide, though personally I have never seen that here. The issue of suicide is clearly much larger than the subject matter of this forum. But it is an important dialog to have with respect to NDEs because if one never has it, important questions about the nature of this experience never get addressed. At its root is the question of whether "spiritual authority" exists, whether it be called God, higher self, the supraconscious...or whether we are free to do what we like. For years the line in NDEs has been that those who take their own lives will have to come back and live exactly the same problems and sufferings all over again. That has always struck me as downright cruel, and I don't think any differently on that today than I have ever done. I also question how that degree of control could possibly exist over the life process and yet choice still mean anything anyway. Supppose Elvis Presley had taken his own life. He would have to come back to exactly the same circumstances? What, *exactly* the same? How is that going to be achieved precisely? Or just "generally" the same "kind" of life? But one way or another it's a disturbing element of these experiences. I still don't buy it for a second that people choose to be born here in order to be chopped up by serial killers or spend years in a coma after a car crash. I think a little common sense goes a long way here. But all sorts of spiritual sources out there, from NDEs to Esther Hicks to Neale Donald Walsch, seem to me to be trying to push this meme. And I am concerned that it's a meme, which happens to be popular at our present time in culture, but not necessarily the truth.
 
#40
It does seem odious of course that some lives seem "charmed" while others are quite horrendous. On no account do I really believe that people "chose" those horrific lives from a menu. On the other hand I get the feeling that from the spiritual perspective, our identities here don't matter as much as we like to believe. They serve a purpose, like nails holding up a picture frame serve a purpose, but are not an end in themselves.
Our identities... Sure. What about the experiences though? Are traumatizing events and horrific experiences going to vanish in a puff of smoke?

One of the most optimistic view on this subject is that on the "other side" is like walking out of a movie theater ... But there's also evidence that some people don't seem able to get up from their movie chairs and walk away, to continue the metaphor. At least for quite some "time", while processing the events in the "movie". I think it's difficult to generalize.
 
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