Puzzling NDE questions

[Kai]

But then it wouldn't be a dog? There might be a dog-like creature inhabiting a different imaginary realm with different rules that could feel joy and be incapable of also feeling pain, but that's not how it works here. Here, pain and pleasure come as a package deal - a binary opposition - a consequence of a sensitive nervous system.

The capacity to feel or experience anything at all necessarily opens you up to feel or experience in terms of binary oppositions.

On what *specifics* do you base that claim though? You asked if a dog could experience the joy of running through a field without pain. And I can't see any realistic reason why not. There are people who already do this. It's circular to say "that's the way the world is." It's the same argument that pain is useful in helping us to avoid suffering. Aye...but only in a world with suffering.

 

[Obiwan]

Ah right. Well I guess maybe 1) there is no choice about incarnation - some reports say there is and some not. We often make choices here because they are the right thing to do, even though perhaps we'd rather not don't we?

And 2) on suicide reports definitely seems divided. From my own reading the consequences of suicide depend on the motive.

 

[Kai]

Ah right. Well I guess maybe 1) there is no choice about incarnation - some reports say there is and some not. We often make choices here because they are the right thing to do, even though perhaps we'd rather not don't we?

And 2) on suicide reports definitely seems divided. From my own reading the consequences of suicide depend on the motive.

See, choice is definitely another issue. Do we really have a choice in this picture or not?

 

[Obiwan]

See, choice is definitely another issue. Do we really have a choice in this picture or not?

I'd say it's unclear based on the evidence available.

 

[Hurmanetar]

On what *specifics* do you base that claim though? You asked if a dog could experience the joy of running through a field without pain. And I can't see any realistic reason why not. There are people who already do this. It's circular to say "that's the way the world is." It's the same argument that pain is useful in helping us to avoid suffering. Aye...but only in a world with suffering.

You could ask, why can't plants grow in space? And of course they can't unless you put one in a space capsule and launch it into space. Similarly, you could probably perform some kind of surgery or give some kind of drug to a dog or a person to prevent them from feeling pain. But people and dogs don't grow out of an environment where pain is not present. Yes, I am kind of saying "it is what it is."

I went back and read your questions in the OP, and I guess to answer the first one, I would say that I find the Dramatic Model of the universe appealing. It is the idea that the universe comes about as a creative impulse to experience all kinds of things and play all kinds of roles in various dramatic stories of which our lives on this Earth are chapters in the stories. Love is a unifying force/emotion so when people reintegrate with the Oneness they experience it as love... unless perhaps they were not at all loving people and were very self-focused... in which case the desire to protect their separateness might make being in the Oneness a hellish abyss-like experience.

 

[Kai]

You could ask, why can't plants grow in space? And of course they can't unless you put one in a space capsule and launch it into space. Similarly, you could probably perform some kind of surgery or give some kind of drug to a dog or a person to prevent them from feeling pain. But people and dogs don't grow out of an environment where pain is not present. Yes, I am kind of saying "it is what it is."

I understand this is an environment which includes pain, but that's not really the issue. The issue is whether pain is *necessary* to live joyfully and in a fulfilled way, and whether there is any relationship between amount of pain and happiness. I just don't see any evidence that there is.

 

[Haruhi]

...I would say that most well cared for pet dogs have few obstacles and are as happy if not happier than wild dogs, so I don't think that argument holds up well at all.

Indeed, I'd have to say that it seems to me exactly the opposite argument that holds up. Dogs are capable of being unconditionally joyous precisely *because* they live utterly in the moment. They do not have the human mind-virus of "comparing" one experience with another experience at another time (usually)...ie either in terms of dread or anticipation. And if a dog's joy is ever increased by comparison, I would say it only happens by comparison with other joyous experience...comparison with dreaded experience simply puts it "in the moment" of that dread, and dread is what they experience NOW.

So, whatever role suffering may play in life (if any) as viewed from a putatively transcendent, nondual reality, I very much doubt it has the slightest thing to do with simply expression of joy or "maturity." That just seems like a human anthropomorphism. What dogs seem to "teach" us is that if we could somehow live in the now, our lives would be capable of being joyous, at least most of the time. This state is *sometimes* achieved in dreams, where the comparison of memory is lost, and seems to be achieved in certain NDEs, where the experience of the moment, of the NOW, overrules all other considerations or perceptions.

I've always thought that a good candidate for heaven would be a truly joyous "groundhog day" that constantly repeats, but you are never aware of the repetition, because you are constantly living in the "now." Think about it. I reckon it's as good a definition of heaven for a finite being as can be conceived.

You keep confusing obsctacles with suffering. Having obstacles / resistances (but not too) is a necessity for all living beings, although immature not aware of it.

 

[Kai]

You keep confusing obsctacles with suffering. Having obstacles / resistances (but not too) is a necessity for all living beings, although immature not aware of it.

I see a difference between *striving* and *suffering* if that is what you are talking about, Haruhi. I can see striving to become a better artist, for example. I'm not sure even that enables me to live more joyfully though. Arts of various kinds are considered a struggle for a reason. Hence Van Gogh, ear, etc. I am still not seeing a case that suffering is necessary for joy, at least not psychologically. If it is true in some metaphysical, duality-requiring sense, then maybe we can talk...but frankly that seems obscure and unproven to me as well. Just because this world has experientially discernible dualistic aspects, I don't think this establishes of itself that all conceivable worlds of necessity somehow have to be.

 

[Stinky Fruit Jackson]

Ah right. Well I guess maybe 1) there is no choice about incarnation - some reports say there is and some not. We often make choices here because they are the right thing to do, even though perhaps we'd rather not don't we?

And 2) on suicide reports definitely seems divided. From my own reading the consequences of suicide depend on the motive.

What is it exactly that reincarnates again? One's essence? :D

 

[Stinky Fruit Jackson]

I see a difference between *striving* and *suffering* if that is what you are talking about, Haruhi. I can see striving to become a better artist, for example. I'm not sure even that enables me to live more joyfully though. Arts of various kinds are considered a struggle for a reason. Hence Van Gogh, ear, etc. I am still not seeing a case that suffering is necessary for joy, at least not psychologically. If it is true in some metaphysical, duality-requiring sense, then maybe we can talk...but frankly that seems obscure and unproven to me as well. Just because this world has experientially discernible dualistic aspects, I don't think this establishes of itself that all conceivable worlds of necessity somehow have to be.

I totally agree, but surely suffering is necessary for us to have the concept of joy?
It's conceivable to me that one could experience an existence of 24-7 unending happiness, but happiness as an idea (or any word to describe that state of mind) would carry no meaning without an opposite state (like unhappiness) to contrast it against.

Anyhow, I think Timothy Leary once said, the best part about pain is that it ends.

 

[Kai]

I totally agree, but surely suffering is necessary for us to have the concept of joy?
It's conceivable to me that one could experience an existence of 24-7 unending happiness, but happiness as an idea (or any word to describe that state of mind) would carry no meaning without an opposite state (like unhappiness) to contrast it against.

Anyhow, I think Timothy Leary once said, the best part about pain is that it ends.

I'm not sure I'm talking about 'concepts' but of states of being, whether bodily, spiritual, whatever...this is why it doesn't really make much sense to me that a state of suffering has to exist in order for me to be joyful. First of all, if I'm suffering right now, then I'm not joyful right now, unless on some bizarre definition (which I don't hold plausible...as it's not my experience). Or else I'm "remembering" a state of suffering in order, in some mysterious way, to bring value to my joy. But I can't say that I ever really do that either. It just doesn't seem to hold true...for me anyway.

 

[Haruhi]

Perfection is boring. What is interesting is the way to perfection. On the other hand, NDErs can not have choise because they are revived and become no reasons, but for mechanical causes.

 

[Kai]

Perfection is boring. What is interesting is the way to perfection. On the other hand, NDErs can not have choise because they are revived and become no reasons, but for mechanical causes.

As organic creatures, we are born to strive. In a time-based world, that seems a given. I'm not sure what pertains in a world where "there is no time" though. Perhaps change has a very different meaning in such a world, or perhaps it just doesn't have a meaning.

 

[Hurmanetar]

I totally agree, but surely suffering is necessary for us to have the concept of joy?
It's conceivable to me that one could experience an existence of 24-7 unending happiness, but happiness as an idea (or any word to describe that state of mind) would carry no meaning without an opposite state (like unhappiness) to contrast it against.

Anyhow, I think Timothy Leary once said, the best part about pain is that it ends.

The Book of Revelation (21:4) describes the new heaven and earth with contrasting negatives: "And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away."

I agree: how would we have the concept of joy without the negatives to contrast it?

 

[Arouet]

The Book of Revelation (21:4) describes the new heaven and earth with contrasting negatives: "And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away."

I agree: how would we have the concept of joy without the negatives to contrast it?

The concept would be different, but would the feeling?

 

[Hurmanetar]

The concept would be different, but would the feeling?

I think so... All feelings sensations states of mind etc seem to involve dynamics or change. Existence is change. Happy dogs have been mentioned and dogs (as far as we know) don't have conceptual thought... My observation of my own pets is that their "joy" peaks the instant the gate is opened or the instant food is dropped in the bowl. People's (or pets') happiness often seems to be tied to a temporary loss or gain or contrast. One trick for staying happy is to count your blessings which is a way of creating this perception of contrast without actually changing anything externally.

Conceptual thought also provides a feedback loop which alters and can sometimes intensify the experience in a positive or negative way. If someone is happy, they might be made more happy by reflecting on their happiness and by counting their blessings. If someone is depressed they can become more deeply depressed by thinking about how depressed they are and their pitiful state.

But sometimes this feedback loop of conceptual thought can get in the way of experiencing joy. There have been times when I've watched a beautiful sunset and found my own redundant train of thought describing the beauty of the sunset to myself got in the way of merely being in the moment and enjoying it. So I employed some meditation techniques to silence the mind and thereby enjoyed the sunset more deeply.

There does seem to be a deeper more steady state of joy that is accessible through loss of conceptual thought or PNSE or enlightenment or mystical Union or whatever you want to call it. But could this steady joy come from the increasing sensitivity to the miniscule changes that make up our moment to moment existence? In this state of mind it is as if every moment contains a new gate to bounded through or a new and interesting contrast or sensation to be explored. Perhaps since the nature of existence is change, and joy comes through contrast and change, then by focusing on the glory of momentary existence, steady joy is the result?

 

[Neil]

Perfection is boring. What is interesting is the way to perfection. On the other hand, NDErs can not have choise because they are revived and become no reasons, but for mechanical causes.

How can you know this? Are you perfect?

 

[Punjab]

As organic creatures, we are born to strive. In a time-based world, that seems a given. I'm not sure what pertains in a world where "there is no time" though. Perhaps change has a very different meaning in such a world, or perhaps it just doesn't have a meaning.

There exists no change only the acquirement of discovery.

 

[Kai]

There exists no change only the acquirement of discovery.

Isn't that a change?

 

[Stinky Fruit Jackson]