Richard Grego, Materialist Soothing |595|

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Richard Grego, Materialist Soothing |595|
by Alex Tsakiris | Jun 13 | Consciousness Science
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Dr. Rich Grego… atheism / scientism rehash… Sam Harris… survival, the ultimate test for scientism.
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Outstanding interview! I remember a discussion in a Q and A session w/ Eben Alexander & Karen Newell who talked about a doctor & his wife who had made some noise that resembled an acceptance of the possibility that people's personalities survive bodily death. But, when pressed for an affirmative response, they said, "We'd never support such a position, even if it were absolutely true." With people like that, then it's completely believable that many would actively engage in "willful ignorance."
 
Outstanding interview! I remember a discussion in a Q and A session w/ Eben Alexander & Karen Newell who talked about a doctor & his wife who had made some noise that resembled an acceptance of the possibility that people's personalities survive bodily death. But, when pressed for an affirmative response, they said, "We'd never support such a position, even if it were absolutely true." With people like that, then it's completely believable that many would actively engage in "willful ignorance."
haha... classic.

I always remember a similar story from Rupert sheldrake when one of his colleagues pronounced " I wouldn't believe it even if it was true" [[621]]
 
Great timing as I just listened to his original episode #186 a couple of days ago as I progress through the archive of shows (and same day the CMPE episode #178 too lol); enjoyed a lot getting an update while I'm in the midst of this topic's original 'season'.


Loved the analogy in this ep with the committed materialists being like addicts who dont know they have a problem. Would be interested to hear an interview with a addict recovery expert on the psychology of being committed to concept X and how people get through that (maybe that's coming up in the archives lol - infact I want to take a step back from the forum to go through the archive before really getting stuck in here).
Maybe similar was on Skeptiko already (I recall a discussion on 'converting' or convincing people, and apparently when they are confronted with contradicting data they just double down on their position often, can't remember the phycological term for it...).
But I guess we're past that point eh ;)

Something else that comes to mind often in this point of the archive as the conversation moves away from 'following and debating the data' to 'why are they so committed to their false paradigm' / 'what are they protecting' / 'how deep do the lies go', is with my little experience in the world of studying nutrition.
I got into that because a good friend is a committed vegan and had a qualification in nutritional science, and I wanted to follow. I soon found out that vegan/veggy world is full of lies too. The nutritional guide info they print on packets are mad (at least where I live). The memes of '5 a day', 'low fat', 'exercise to lose weight' 'red meat is bad' etc etc is a real afront to what the actual data are saying, yet persists for decades and all propped up by corporations, governments, social pressure groups like the eco-warriors, SJWs and other 'vampire shamers').
I remember saying to my friend there's so much data against veggism that it seems more like a religion (as he was poo-pooing the people who'd done research I was noting that undermines his points). That was the last we talked about it lol

Anyway, I can only conclude so far that all of these topics propped up with lies because it's essentially making the population less healthy and vibrant/dragging us away from our natural state (ie truths) to keep us fearful and mailable etc. Not a new view point, just scratching my forum posting itch until I finish my archive mission lol and I guess wanted to mention it somewhere incase folks arent on the nutrition bandwagon.
PS hoping there's an episode coming up in the archive with a nutritionist that can spell out this interesting and blatant parallel structure of deceit in the food world :D
 
Great timing as I just listened to his original episode #186 a couple of days ago as I progress through the archive of shows (and same day the CMPE episode #178 too lol); enjoyed a lot getting an update while I'm in the midst of this topic's original 'season'.


Loved the analogy in this ep with the committed materialists being like addicts who dont know they have a problem. Would be interested to hear an interview with a addict recovery expert on the psychology of being committed to concept X and how people get through that (maybe that's coming up in the archives lol - infact I want to take a step back from the forum to go through the archive before really getting stuck in here).
Maybe similar was on Skeptiko already (I recall a discussion on 'converting' or convincing people, and apparently when they are confronted with contradicting data they just double down on their position often, can't remember the phycological term for it...).
But I guess we're past that point eh ;)

nice! Maybe you're thinking of
Festinger when prophecy fails - Amazon Official Site

Something else that comes to mind often in this point of the archive as the conversation moves away from 'following and debating the data' to 'why are they so committed to their false paradigm' / 'what are they protecting' / 'how deep do the lies go', is with my little experience in the world of studying nutrition.
I got into that because a good friend is a committed vegan and had a qualification in nutritional science, and I wanted to follow. I soon found out that vegan/veggy world is full of lies too. The nutritional guide info they print on packets are mad (at least where I live). The memes of '5 a day', 'low fat', 'exercise to lose weight' 'red meat is bad' etc etc is a real afront to what the actual data are saying, yet persists for decades and all propped up by corporations, governments, social pressure groups like the eco-warriors, SJWs and other 'vampire shamers').
I remember saying to my friend there's so much data against veggism that it seems more like a religion (as he was poo-pooing the people who'd done research I was noting that undermines his points). That was the last we talked about it lol

That's a great example... And it's one that I've been revisiting lately.

Here's how it went for me and tell me if it did all fits with your experience. So, I like a lot of things eckhart tolle says and was looking for a new youtube. I came across this
Eckhart Tolle EXPOSED By This Simple Question (Vegan ...

There's a lot about this guy's presentation that I didn't like but I had to admit that Tolle was kind of all over the place in his response to a pretty simple question. And I had to admit that I'm not real comfortable with the industrial farming of animals... The pig's smart as dogs thing is especially difficult. And I also had to admit that I intentionally avoid watching all those animal cruelty videos that vegans love to push out there.

The end result of all of this for me was a shift in my eating... A compromise... a move away from the worst of the worst of the meat industry while not going to batshit crazy on the vegan stuff. I'm sure my approach has plenty of logical inconsistencies, but I think everything in this area is a bit of a compromise... Which maybe brings us back to the point about your friend... And the point about these Skeptiko dialogues [[p]]

Anyway, I can only conclude so far that all of these topics propped up with lies because it's essentially making the population less healthy and vibrant/dragging us away from our natural state (ie truths) to keep us fearful and mailable etc. Not a new view point, just scratching my forum posting itch until I finish my archive mission lol and I guess wanted to mention it somewhere incase folks arent on the nutrition bandwagon.
PS hoping there's an episode coming up in the archive with a nutritionist that can spell out this interesting and blatant parallel structure of deceit in the food world :D

Nice! I'd love to do a show on this topic. What do you think about a show with the vegan guy mentioned above?
 
Great timing as I just listened to his original episode #186 a couple of days ago as I progress through the archive of shows (and same day the CMPE episode #178 too lol); enjoyed a lot getting an update while I'm in the midst of this topic's original 'season'.


Loved the analogy in this ep with the committed materialists being like addicts who dont know they have a problem. Would be interested to hear an interview with a addict recovery expert on the psychology of being committed to concept X and how people get through that (maybe that's coming up in the archives lol - infact I want to take a step back from the forum to go through the archive before really getting stuck in here).
Maybe similar was on Skeptiko already (I recall a discussion on 'converting' or convincing people, and apparently when they are confronted with contradicting data they just double down on their position often, can't remember the phycological term for it...).
But I guess we're past that point eh ;)

Something else that comes to mind often in this point of the archive as the conversation moves away from 'following and debating the data' to 'why are they so committed to their false paradigm' / 'what are they protecting' / 'how deep do the lies go', is with my little experience in the world of studying nutrition.
I got into that because a good friend is a committed vegan and had a qualification in nutritional science, and I wanted to follow. I soon found out that vegan/veggy world is full of lies too. The nutritional guide info they print on packets are mad (at least where I live). The memes of '5 a day', 'low fat', 'exercise to lose weight' 'red meat is bad' etc etc is a real afront to what the actual data are saying, yet persists for decades and all propped up by corporations, governments, social pressure groups like the eco-warriors, SJWs and other 'vampire shamers').
I remember saying to my friend there's so much data against veggism that it seems more like a religion (as he was poo-pooing the people who'd done research I was noting that undermines his points). That was the last we talked about it lol

Anyway, I can only conclude so far that all of these topics propped up with lies because it's essentially making the population less healthy and vibrant/dragging us away from our natural state (ie truths) to keep us fearful and mailable etc. Not a new view point, just scratching my forum posting itch until I finish my archive mission lol and I guess wanted to mention it somewhere incase folks arent on the nutrition bandwagon.
PS hoping there's an episode coming up in the archive with a nutritionist that can spell out this interesting and blatant parallel structure of deceit in the food world :D
I have to agree that greedy lying is found practically everywhere. Mother Jones put out a report a few years ago that showed that the weight loss industry had successfully lobbied changes to the BMI scale so that more people would come out as carrying too much fat in their bodies. As the article indicated, doctors for most of history struggled to get people to eat enough to avoid being under-weight & now we've got an industry trying to encourage that very thing. Shameless profit-seeking!!
 
The point you made, Alex, how messaging has been used to manipulate populations for generations, hit home. I don't believe Sam Harris is tied to some dark purpose, but the fact that he is getting attention is. Same with Neil deGrasse Tyson. It's how our attention is manipulated through media and particularly social media. Those who control the messaging want "science" to be useful for manipulating beliefs on things like global warming, CoVid, UAPs, etc. Induce a heavy dose of public fear, and the world is your oyster. Psi phenom mess that all up.
 
I have to agree that greedy lying is found practically everywhere. Mother Jones put out a report a few years ago that showed that the weight loss industry had successfully lobbied changes to the BMI scale so that more people would come out as carrying too much fat in their bodies. As the article indicated, doctors for most of history struggled to get people to eat enough to avoid being under-weight & now we've got an industry trying to encourage that very thing. Shameless profit-seeking!!
I have to agree that greedy lying is found practically everywhere. Mother Jones put out a report a few years ago that showed that the weight loss industry had successfully lobbied changes to the BMI scale so that more people would come out as carrying too much fat in their bodies. As the article indicated, doctors for most of history struggled to get people to eat enough to avoid being under-weight & now we've got an industry trying to encourage that very thing. Shameless profit-seeking!!

Indeed, a lot of the modern main stream healthy food industry is based on 'sponsored' research around fat=bad and turns out the science it was based on was 'sponsored' by sugar industry. I believe it was 'Big Fat Surprise' I read that in: https://ninateicholz.com/about/the-big-fat-surprise/

From one perspective, the whole health/nutrition industry is getting rattled a lot this past decade with all these exposés but it seems it's yet to really take effect on the ground and supermarket shelves. Not an unfamiliar scene...
 
Nice! I'd love to do a show on this topic. What do you think about a show with the vegan guy mentioned above?

I'd love to hear that but I think he's (was) not exactly fit to expand on the topic very well :'D
What I might suggest is trying to get Ben Greenfield on (and it's also ben a few years since I've been up to date on the nutrition world, so maybe there's better now), but he's extremally knowledgeable on the science of nutrition and other health modalities, both mainstream and alternatives; got famous for his 'bio-hacking' approach, so mainly materialist based - but seems has also had a bit of a spiritual awakening these last few years too and I'd be curious to catch up on his podcast to see what take he has on the non-material side of health now:
https://bengreenfieldlife.com/podcast/spirituality/
I think he'd be a great overall perspective on the mainstream health industry's lies (tho expect he'd probably just say it's just corporate profit driven, I bet he'd be curious of the Sk take on the wider deception mechanism), and be able to give relatively objective incites into alternative diets, and maybe can speak to the spiritual+material bodily health balance and how diet comports with spiritual side.
I'd love to do what I can to help make that happen, as you called for, but not sure where I'd even start lol


Thanks! Could be, I'll delve a bit when I get a chance.

That's a great example... And it's one that I've been revisiting lately.

Here's how it went for me and tell me if it did all fits with your experience. So, I like a lot of things eckhart tolle says and was looking for a new youtube. I came across this
Eckhart Tolle EXPOSED By This Simple Question (Vegan ...

There's a lot about this guy's presentation that I didn't like but I had to admit that Tolle was kind of all over the place in his response to a pretty simple question. And I had to admit that I'm not real comfortable with the industrial farming of animals... The pig's smart as dogs thing is especially difficult. And I also had to admit that I intentionally avoid watching all those animal cruelty videos that vegans love to push out there.

The end result of all of this for me was a shift in my eating... A compromise... a move away from the worst of the worst of the meat industry while not going to batshit crazy on the vegan stuff. I'm sure my approach has plenty of logical inconsistencies, but I think everything in this area is a bit of a compromise... Which maybe brings us back to the point about your friend... And the point about these Skeptiko dialogues [[p]]

Thanks! I tried to listen to that reaction video but... I ended up just having to scan through to hear Tolle's response; the "reactor" is unnecessarily going to annoy me lol.
It's in the ballpark of my vegan encounter experiences, indeed. My feeling about what is happening with many of these v-militants is that they are riding high on a righteous evangelist type egregor, further amplified by a lack of essential fats that limit neuroplasticity and increase emotional / irrational thinking (ok that 2nd part was a joke, but I do recall seeing a paper on pubmed to that effect lol and in retrospect I think I fell into that trap/mold too when I was "v-ing") and they oft have a kinda simplex view of things with a few rehearsed talking points that have been debunked over the years... (familiar?)

On Tolle's response, I don't think he was very articulate or concise but as it was 'on the spot' and not in his mother tongue, I'd give plenty of slack. But overall I'd mostly agree with what (I think) he was getting at, in that if a person isn't vibing with veggy/veganism, then it's not for them and that doesnt impact their 'spiritual enlightenment level' at all.
Indiscriminately eating any cheap industrial crap that comes from the worst suffering is demonstrably wrong, in my opinion and those that do it are just ignorant of what is going on there (in every aspect), but if that's where they're "at", then it is what it is and we can nudge - but prob they need to come to their own realization.
Over years of delving into spiritual matters, I find the veggy/vegans honestly to be the least spiritually sophisticated, at least the ones that make a deal out of it anyway.

And for the while that I was studying nutrition, I found out that its really an individual thing. EG there are athletes that are vegan, but on average it seems most people's bodies simply don't do well without meat/fish, so everyone has to simply experiment and see what works.
When you read a study of 100 people got cancer and they were all eating X; that to me means that those 100 people are prone to cancer (that maybe it correlates to X, depending on quality of the data). Take another 100 people, you'd very probably get quite different results.
When i see a vegan or carnivore or paleo or breatharian etc say 'everyone would be healthier when they do this! YOU MUST DO THIS', is when I know to tune out; they didn't get the obvious individual / journey component yet.

For me, after wandering around all the stands in the convention, I've settled on similar-ish compromise to you Alex (though it hardly feels like a compromise now): for me it means limiting meat intake to only good quality stuff where the animals are verifiably treated well and the farming practices are sustainable. If I'm in a restaurant, I get the veggy option because I can't be sure. I only eat 1 or 2 meals a day anyway, so skipping occasions where someone is offering me something I'm not comfortable with, is easy. The compromise comes in the $-wallet sense lol
In my view, the suffering of the plant is something to consider too (though it's different), they are also beings that 'die for the life of others'. So I try intake the best quality I can of that lifeform too (and the environ where it's grown, ie where it's not sprayed like crazy with poisons in forced monocrop situation, which also destroys biodiversity, kills countless bugs, moles, mice, microlife etc and depletes the soil... something v-militants don't like to talk about).

Oh, this is way longer than I expected. Time for bed here (the most important health 'to-do' thing, after breathing and drinking water lol)
 
For me, after wandering around all the stands in the convention, I've settled on similar-ish compromise to you Alex (though it hardly feels like a compromise now): for me it means limiting meat intake to only good quality stuff where the animals are verifiably treated well and the farming practices are sustainable. If I'm in a restaurant, I get the veggy option because I can't be sure. I only eat 1 or 2 meals a day anyway, so skipping occasions where someone is offering me something I'm not comfortable with, is easy. The compromise comes in the $-wallet sense lol
In my view, the suffering of the plant is something to consider too (though it's different), they are also beings that 'die for the life of others'. So I try intake the best quality I can of that lifeform too (and the environ where it's grown, ie where it's not sprayed like crazy with poisons in forced monocrop situation, which also destroys biodiversity, kills countless bugs, moles, mice, microlife etc and depletes the soil... something v-militants don't like to talk about).

nice... we're in sync [[p]]

I know the v-militant was annoying, but he did make some good points. could make for a good dialogue.
 
nice... we're in sync [[p]]

I know the v-militant was annoying, but he did make some good points. could make for a good dialogue.

Sure! Certainly would be confrontational (ie fun lol).
I'd be happy to try gather data for questions* (*reminding myself I have a full time business to run with kids and apparently need to clip my nails now and then...)

I would imagine getting a Ben Greenfield on for wider / saner discussion could even be a nice complementary discussion too ;)
 
Sure! Certainly would be confrontational (ie fun lol).
I'd be happy to try gather data for questions* (*reminding myself I have a full time business to run with kids and apparently need to clip my nails now and then...)
ok... Why don't you shoot an email to the Vegan Vigilante. Let me know if he expresses interest in coming on and I will arrange it.
 
I'm not surprised he didn't reply. On the other hand, I'm always surprised when these small-ish youtubers don't reply to requests. I think it's part of playing the psydo-celebrity game.
 
Sam Harris believes that the consciousness which survives death is an illusion.
I agree that to be true for his conception of consciousness.
Beyond that, Sam is not misunderstanding ‘our’ conception of consciousness. Rather He’s pretending not to recognize it, very much the same way celebrities often pretend to not know how to pronounce names of their critics. It’s basic trickery.
I personally believe this is Sam’s personal game of “Chicken” which he’s playing against God. But the part that Sam probably doesn’t understand is that God will allow Sam to live out deceit (self and others) as much as Sam wants, because Free Will. Which is probably why Sam’s favorite topic to gotcha mid-wits with is Free Will.
 
Perhaps a better question at the base of Consciousness study would be:
Could a just and loving God intentionally create beings incapable of conceiving of him/her/it?
(If you’re reading this Bernardo feel free to take a stab at it)
 
Perhaps a better question at the base of Consciousness study would be:
Could a just and loving God intentionally create beings incapable of conceiving of him/her/it?
(If you’re reading this Bernardo feel free to take a stab at it)
Doesn't this connect to your point about free will? It seems like we are part of this collective consciousness we're calling god. So we can do the cut our nose to spite our face thing... We've all been there [[p]]
 
Doesn't this connect to your point about free will? It seems like we are part of this collective consciousness we're calling god. So we can do the cut our nose to spite our face thing... We've all been there [[p]]
It was more of a jab at all of our desire to be perceived by our friends as knowing something that's arguably unknowable - What is God and what are Gods intentions. We all, even the scientists love pretending we know how to answer those.
 
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