Ricky Varandas, Is Fake Science Evil? |530|

First, I want to point out that I have never taken much of an interest in 9/11 issues, yet you are hammering me as if I were a prominent proponent. By doing that you force me to analyse if what you are saying is completely coherent. You seem to want to whip up my less that fulsome response to your ideas into something more than it is.



Well I suppose it would depend on the details. At the moment there are any number of people in the Judicial system, the Senate and Congress who seem to want to attack and destroy your country. Who knows if some of those idiots were around back then.

Indeed, there were plenty of people back then who were ready to throw caution to the wind and attack Iraq for what happened on 9/11. We both know how that turned out.

David
I use 9/11 as a proxy for the typical CT.

I'm not hammering you, at least I don't mean to.

I keep trying to explain that politicians are not the same as the rank and file military and intel communities. I agree, politicians are largely horribly devious and untrustworthy people. I also agree that the heads of agencies are increasing political.
 
I think the disconnect goes back to the point I am contending at the opening of this post: theories are valuable and ask us to consider things outside the norm and/or contrary to our biases; however presenting many of these conspiracies as proven/factual/actual is another animal all together.

Right. And in doing so, the CTists are indulging in the very same fake science that they complain about.

And it's super obvious to anyone not in the CT cult.

If you want better science, you should serve as an example. Lead from the front!

This is very simple stuff and I am amazed at how it is resisted by people here.
 
I don't even want to imagine how fucked we would all be right now if there had no Conspiracy Theorists in early 2020 when the top scientists were dismissing potential lab leak. I'd probably be in a detention center already.
 
I don't even want to imagine how fucked we would all be right now if there had no Conspiracy Theorists in early 2020 when the top scientists were dismissing potential lab leak. I'd probably be in a detention center already.
A lab leak is not what I call a CT. Lab leaks happen frequently enough that leaked covid is a very reasonable possibility that needs to be looked at carefully. CYAs for giant screw-ups, like lab leaks, are also normal human behaviors. Both a leak and a CYA are very feasible. I don't see any of it as examples of CTs or heroic CTists saving the planet.

How the hell did people thinking it could be a lab leak make a difference anyhow? I fail to see how it changed the situation one iota. The virus is here and political opportunists, profiteers and fools have gone ahead with their crazy non-scientific reactions regardless of the source of the virus.

Now, if you tell me that you just know that Gates, Fauci, the Chinese, the UN and The Who deliberately released the virus to advance a master plan of bringing the US down and installing a One World dictatorship, that would be a CT. Actually, I think such a thing needs to be investigated. However, if there is no solid proof at the end of the day -like what would convict in a court of law - then it needs to be dropped and resources dedicated to other issues.
 
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How the hell did people thinking it could be a lab leak make a difference anyhow?

I'm not trying to be obtuse. CT voices make a HUGE difference.

"History is written by the victors." applies to the battle for This Narrative just well as any other in history.

If there were not enough CT voices fighting against the established narrative:
-Lab leak would have been squashed
-Trumps Warpspeed would have been shot down. (Member how they all decried "I won't take any vax that comes from Trump"???)
-UN/WHO would have full control of the narrative, meaning Lockdowns until establishment ready with their preferred vax rollout (mandate across the board in conjunction with implementation of health passport and social credit system.)
-Anti-mandate protests would be illegal/terrorism because the result in hesitancy against emergency health measures.
-Apple/Facebook/Twitter/Maybe even Banks, etc would have disabled communication/access to offenders who risk causing hesitancy against emergency health measures.

IF their goal is NWO/BBB, they wouldn't have missed any of the above opportunities if they had them.
My favorite example is having heard them (people) literally say anti-vaxxers should have their kids taken from them.

I thank God for the most vociferous CT voices. I'm an introvert, so I battle mostly on the keyboard, but I do so with my whole heart in my hands.
 
I'm not trying to be obtuse. CT voices make a HUGE difference.

"History is written by the victors." applies to the battle for This Narrative just well as any other in history.

If there were not enough CT voices fighting against the established narrative:
-Lab leak would have been squashed
-Trumps Warpspeed would have been shot down. (Member how they all decried "I won't take any vax that comes from Trump"???)
-UN/WHO would have full control of the narrative, meaning Lockdowns until establishment ready with their preferred vax rollout (mandate across the board in conjunction with implementation of health passport and social credit system.)
-Anti-mandate protests would be illegal/terrorism because the result in hesitancy against emergency health measures.
-Apple/Facebook/Twitter/Maybe even Banks, etc would have disabled communication/access to offenders who risk causing hesitancy against emergency health measures.

IF their goal is NWO/BBB, they wouldn't have missed any of the above opportunities if they had them.
My favorite example is having heard them (people) literally say anti-vaxxers should have their kids taken from them.

I thank God for the most vociferous CT voices. I'm an introvert, so I battle mostly on the keyboard, but I do so with my whole heart in my hands.
Sorry, but I don't agree with any of that.

Like I said, lab leak, etc are not what I'd call a CT.

The rest of your list is just normal checks and balances. Everyone knows that fools, political opportunists and profiteers will hijack any situation that they think can further their self-interests. Therefore, the governmental and social systems, both institutional and organically evolved, meet statements and proposed policies with skeptical opposition. It's just like how Democrats want to tax the bejeezus out of gainfully employed Americans and Republicans want to reduce taxes. They fight over it. The media gets involved and supports one side or the other. The people repeat the arguments they have been exposed to. One side wins or a compromise is made. Covid is no different than the taxation policy questions, the border, school curriculum, you name it. I just don't see CTists contributing in the picture at all.
 
Sorry, but I don't agree with any of that.

Like I said, lab leak, etc are not what I'd call a CT.

Agreed. The Wet Market claim would be the Conspiracy in this instance. Again, not a strawman, but notice how you gently nudged the subject away from the guilty parties again.

The type of person who would be willing to take your children away from you for refusing to take a vax against a disease as nominal as Covid-19, would also be willing to target you with a 5G tower radiation if the technology had potential to do so.. So you have CT's saying "5g is probably causing Covid". Not because they're sure of it.. But because they've confirmed that the fuckers would be willing to do it if they could, so lets keep a spotlight on it. And you're welcome (on behalf of the CT's who are willing to be the idiot in order to keep spotlight on the fuckers).
 
Agreed. The Wet Market claim would be the Conspiracy in this instance. Again, not a strawman, but notice how you gently nudged the subject away from the guilty parties again.

Huh? I have not nudged away anything. I can definitely see the Chinese lying about the source of the virus and how it entered the populace. I can definitely see Fauci lying about that to cover up his illegal gain of function research. In fact, based on the hearings and, especially, Senator Paul's questioning, I think it is probable. AFIAK, Paul is not a CTist. He's just one of the few good politicians doing his job.

type of person who would be willing to take your children away from you for refusing to take a vax against a disease as nominal as Covid-19, would also be willing to target you with a 5G tower radiation if the technology had potential to do so.. So you have CT's saying "5g is probably causing Covid". Not because they're sure of it.. But because they've confirmed that the fuckers would be willing to do it if they could, so lets keep a spotlight on it. And you're welcome (on behalf of the CT's who are willing to be the idiot in order to keep spotlight on the fuckers).

That's just mush brained thinking all the way around.

Someone taking your kids away is not the same as deliberately harming you or killing you with 5G radiation (not even a real thing, IMO). The kid nappers may have reasons that you are not considering, like they actually think they are doing something for the greater good and saving your kids' lives and maybe yours. Those same people may very well not blast with with 5G radiation because they would perceive themselves as simple murderers.

Obviously I am not siding with the would be kidnappers or defending them in any way. Just pointing out bad logic and other possibilities that need to be considered.

How have they confirmed the fuckers would do it? There is no proof of that.

CTists making purely emotional connections and unscientific statements about 5G are not helping anyone by playing the role of "idiot". They just look like overly emotional idiots and they make the job of serious people like Rand Paul (and me) more difficult b/c opponents can disingenuously lump us in with the emotional CT idiots.
 
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They just look like overly emotional idiots and they make the job of serious people like Rand Paul (and me) more difficult b/c opponents can disingenuously lump us in with the emotional CT idiots.
If Rand Paul (Expert & Conspiracy Theorist) didn't have the support of millions of emotional/amateur Conspiracy Theorists, his exchanges with Fauci wouldn't even be televised. Seriously.

And even if your perception of the amateurs as being "overly emotional idiots" is accurate, it doesn't mean your Expertise has more brass tacks value than does the CT's emotional spotlight on the fuckers. I could argue the opposite, but I'll save you the extra annoyance.
In fact, so far I don't believe I've seen you even attempt to substantiate the claim that your expert attention is more effective that of an emotional CT. Aren't you just lobbing ridicule? Where's your evidence?
 
A lab leak is not what I call a CT. Lab leaks happen frequently enough that leaked covid is a very reasonable possibility that needs to be looked at carefully. CYAs for giant screw-ups, like lab leaks, are also normal human behaviors. Both a leak and a CYA are very feasible. I don't see any of it as examples of CTs or heroic CTists saving the planet.

The problem is that everyone uses the term CTist as a term of abuse, but no two people agree on the actual definition. I think it is best not to pretend that we can make a clean separation between CTs and plausible hypotheses - but just point out that some theories are wilder and less supported by evidence than others.

Also, I am sure there is in general a difference between military personal and politicians, but then you have someone like Mark Milley!

David
 
If Rand Paul (Expert & Conspiracy Theorist) didn't have the support of millions of emotional/amateur Conspiracy Theorists, his exchanges with Fauci wouldn't even be televised. Seriously.

And even if your perception of the amateurs as being "overly emotional idiots" is accurate, it doesn't mean your Expertise has more brass tacks value than does the CT's emotional spotlight on the fuckers. I could argue the opposite, but I'll save you the extra annoyance.
In fact, so far I don't believe I've seen you even attempt to substantiate the claim that your expert attention is more effective that of an emotional CT. Aren't you just lobbing ridicule? Where's your evidence?

You're misunderstanding me. Forget whatever "expertise" I may have. It's not really relevant to the key point. Go back and read what "Silence" wrote in his last comment.

It is clear that you're not being totally honest about what the typical CTist here is saying. You may be saying that it's all just theorizing that should be explored. I actually agree with that to an extent.

However, when people here are making an emotional conclusion that is based on fear and a sense of powerlessness, it isn't science and it isn't helping. The emotional CT argument is something like this, "Well powerful people, government, etc. did x, y and z so what else might they do?!!!? They could do anything! In fact, the hell with it, where there's smoke, there's fire. They did it! they killed us on 9/11, they killed Kennedy, they're running pedo rings, they created covid to kill us and bring about a new world order, they're alien lizards. Case closed! It's all real. You just have to believe!"

That's all like a brain or psychology out of control stating possibilities or theories as fact. Again, maybe you're not doing that, you say. But pretty much everyone here is doing it, including Alex.

You CTists don't like when someone lumps in flat earth with your other theories and beliefs, but that is exactly what you are doing to the targets of your "theories". CTists are cultists. It fits every definition of a cult. Sorry if you can't see that.

Let me also say that I am not an advocate of big government b/c I understand that power corrupts. Yet I also understand that lack of accountability leads to bloated organizations full of idiots that create problems out of shear incompetence and unintended consequences. I further understand that shit happens that no one could predict or prevent.
 
The problem is that everyone uses the term CTist as a term of abuse, but no two people agree on the actual definition. I think it is best not to pretend that we can make a clean separation between CTs and plausible hypotheses - but just point out that some theories are wilder and less supported by evidence than others.

Also, I am sure there is in general a difference between military personal and politicians, but then you have someone like Mark Milley!

David
Sure we can. I think that claiming something is 100% true that couldn't be proven in a court of law and result in a conviction and is against the accepted explanation, is a CT.
 
Good discussion.

What I notice about CTs...they are easily debunked by those people who are in the best position to judge their plausibility, and as a result are pretty much ignored by the relevant mainstream experts (scientists, historians, investigative journalists, etc.).

In order to cling to the CT, when presented with conflicting information, the CTer rolls that conflicting information into the conspiracy. So the more evidence against the CT, the bigger it becomes - broader in scope, increasingly bizarre players, etc.

And this also leads to another defining quality of CTs/CTers - they are immune to facts.
 
And you're welcome (on behalf of the CT's who are willing to be the idiot in order to keep spotlight on the fuckers).
That’s the problem. There’s no reason to think you’re identifying any actual fuckers. Or that your activities accomplish anything but a waste of time and resources that could be much better spent elsewhere.
 
Ever notice that CTs are never positive? Like the military or intelligence community saved us from something terrible?

Like maybe covid and masks were set up by the "CIA" to defeat ubiquitous security cams and facial recognition software. I mean it's a "theory", right?

Notice experts and authorities are always the demons in the CT?

You all live this good life, better than anything in history with regards to security and material comforts, which in turn, leads to the ability to pursue other forms of personal development, but, at the same time, you imagine all these all powerful malevolent forces conspiring against you. Think about it. Somebody must be doing something right. But no, it's all evil all the time from the people sworn to protect you. How can that be?

IMO, CTists have daddy issues/authority issues.
 
That’s the problem. There’s no reason to think you’re identifying any actual fuckers. Or that your activities accomplish anything but a waste of time and resources that could be much better spent elsewhere.
Too bad your problem is that you buy the official line every time. And cling to debate club tactics to support your randomly selected position. You're the other side of the spectrum from the CTists. The truth is always in the middle. No. I don't have a link for that. Deal with it, or not.
 
It is clear that you're not being totally honest about what the typical CTist here is saying. You may be saying that it's all just theorizing that should be explored. I actually agree with that to an extent.
You CTists don't like when someone lumps in flat earth with your other theories and beliefs, but that is exactly what you are doing to the targets of your "theories". CTists are cultists. It fits every definition of a cult. Sorry if you can't see that.

Excellent! This brings us to a place I've been passionate about for as long as I can remember.
Somewhere right between those two points, is where I believe the cultiness actually sprouts. And I don't think you or Alex or anyone here is above it. When you said earlier the CT eventually makes you feel yucky, I understand it, I apologize, and I'm genuinely grateful for your input.
In any given discourse, this spot between these two points is where Myself, You, Forumers, Alex, Tom Cowan, Flat Earthers, etc arrive at a *Red alert! Fundamental difference approaching!*, and we get to either decide to put up the wall, or set the difference aside. Put up a wall, or set it aside. Wash, rinse, repeat..etc. Each instance includes a bandwidth cost/benefit analysis.
This is why I love Skeptiko and Alex and everyone on this forum so much. You've already awarded me more benefit of the doubt than you could probably imagine given what you perceive as my "mush brained thinking". I don't want you to buy-in to my conception of any given CT. I want us on the same team, regardless of our drastically different conceptions of reality.
That same yucky feeling you get when shit starts sounding to wishy washy, is the feeling I get when I hear brilliant people putting up an unnecessary wall. I get that Culty vibe. And I'm not criticizing the wall. I just have passion about "Hey, I don't think you need that wall. That idea's not a threat."
F. Scott Fitzgerald famously wrote: “The test of a first-rate intelligence is the ability to hold two opposing ideas in mind at the same time and still retain the ability to function. One should, for example, be able to see that things are hopeless yet be determined to make them otherwise.”
FSG didn't go on to say "..except bad ideas."
I have prayed many times this year asking to be wrong about my vehement opposition to the authoritarian vax rollout.
I think the burden of education is an inversely proportional added difficulty to recognize utility in opposing ideas. The cost of bandwidth is much higher. So, again, Thank you for your points. And points well taken.
 
Excellent! This brings us to a place I've been passionate about for as long as I can remember.
Somewhere right between those two points, is where I believe the cultiness actually sprouts. And I don't think you or Alex or anyone here is above it. When you said earlier the CT eventually makes you feel yucky, I understand it, I apologize, and I'm genuinely grateful for your input.
In any given discourse, this spot between these two points is where Myself, You, Forumers, Alex, Tom Cowan, Flat Earthers, etc arrive at a *Red alert! Fundamental difference approaching!*, and we get to either decide to put up the wall, or set the difference aside. Put up a wall, or set it aside. Wash, rinse, repeat..etc. Each instance includes a bandwidth cost/benefit analysis.
This is why I love Skeptiko and Alex and everyone on this forum so much. You've already awarded me more benefit of the doubt than you could probably imagine given what you perceive as my "mush brained thinking". I don't want you to buy-in to my conception of any given CT. I want us on the same team, regardless of our drastically different conceptions of reality.
That same yucky feeling you get when shit starts sounding to wishy washy, is the feeling I get when I hear brilliant people putting up an unnecessary wall. I get that Culty vibe. And I'm not criticizing the wall. I just have passion about "Hey, I don't think you need that wall. That idea's not a threat."
F. Scott Fitzgerald famously wrote: “The test of a first-rate intelligence is the ability to hold two opposing ideas in mind at the same time and still retain the ability to function. One should, for example, be able to see that things are hopeless yet be determined to make them otherwise.”
FSG didn't go on to say "..except bad ideas."
I have prayed many times this year asking to be wrong about my vehement opposition to the authoritarian vax rollout.
I think the burden of education is an inversely proportional added difficulty to recognize utility in opposing ideas. The cost of bandwidth is much higher. So, again, Thank you for your points. And points well taken.
Nah.

I get a sick feeling over CTs because they are so incredibly paranoid and depressing and negative.; always. They are a very bad energy. Like I said, name a positive CT where the government (or whatever perceived power center) got together and did something good for people. Never ever happens in CTs. So CTism is a view of the world where evil literally controls everything in this world and openly kills bodies and souls. This world is the doorstep to hell and the door is wide open. Wow. Merry fucking Christmas and happy new year to you too. When I see a CTist in my mind's eye, I see a very sad person stewing in their own juices and unable to get out of it and relieving the pain a little by deflecting it onto amorphous entity scapegoats that are made responsible for all of the suffering in the world.

It hurts me to associated with that kind of twisted desperation for too long. I wish I could help, truly. But there's nothing I can do. The CT is merely a symptom; not the disease.

What is yet more disturbing to me is that there are millions of people in this sad state of mind.

anyhow.....

I don't think cults evolve from the middle. They come from the extremes.

Nothing you said is suggestive of science and the scientific method. I don't really care because I think science is overrated and paralyzing. No one has 20 or 30 years of study replications to get an accurate picture to act on. Business and intelligence/military decisions are made based on combination of gut instinct and logic and best possible risk assessment.

That said Skeptiko can't pretend to be science if it's all about CTs and subjective lines. Tipping point? yeah. that's accurate enough, as in tipped right into the abyss, IMO.

I'm going to point something out that might be instructive. I have diligently tried to respond to every point CTists here make, in detail and with the facts as I know them, or my alternative ways of viewing the situation. The CTists here rarely actually address the points I make (yes. I've been keeping score). If they do, it's in some highly general and ideological terms; never the facts themselves. That's a problem symptom too.
 
That same yucky feeling you get when shit starts sounding to wishy washy, is the feeling I get when I hear brilliant people putting up an unnecessary wall. I get that Culty vibe. And I'm not criticizing the wall. I just have passion about "Hey, I don't think you need that wall. That idea's not a threat."

This vibes with me, I think I’m similar.

It’s intuitive with me, as I struggle to put such things in words, where you seem much more capable in this regard. One difference is that I sometimes do criticise the wall, if frustration is a form of criticism. I think that may not help when trying to put my argument forward, but without it (the frustration) would I have any motivation?

If I were to write my version of the message bolded above, it might be…”Hey, you don’t need that wall, its bad news. Can’t you see that it’s limiting the possibilities?”

Flat Earthers for example don’t bother me at all from what I know about them, but one or two ‘militant’ flat earthers surely would, if they exist, and I wouldn’t be surprised if they did.

Sure, to take the two examples I feel strongly about, I have my thinking about the possibilities about what may be happening, I don’t deny that. I don’t discount anything, but at the same time, I don’t 100% harden up anything. So when you say that CTist have ‘theories’, as a CT I tend to agree. I come to these theories not by blindly ‘believing‘ something like some religious folk do, but using my intellect and gathering any evidence and finally my intuition when all the parts are processed.

Am I sure that 9/11 was an ‘inside job‘, or that the Covid event was ‘planned’? No. But I also think that to dismiss both out of hand, in other words “build a wall” in our minds is a big mistake.

I have my own ideas about such ‘walls’. Are they psychological defences of some sort, or maybe something to do with our egos?

Somehow some (most?) people just refuse to accept the possibility that certain things may be true. That Americans helped play a part in 9/11 is so unthinkable that most just dismiss any possibility of it being true. For to think that way would turn their world upside down. It’s probably why I think Fauci can convince himself that Rand Paul is making all the ‘gain of function’ stuff up.

By the way I don’t think Eric is in the category of people I have described above. Its not fear with him, it’s more about his powerful ego. And once again, this is not a criticism, just an observational amateur guess. I apologise to Eric for any offence taken, none is meant.

That maybe helps explain part of the saying…

“First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, and then you win.”

There are some versions that say that in the final parts of the process “the truth becomes obvious,“ then you win - in a way the truth was maybe always obvious, but the accepted denial of the truth was previously a mode of survival?

People don’t like hearing such talk, but I have a drive to ask such questions, a passion, similar to your own. I am happy in my own skin, so I’m not too bothered being called names by people on the internet. The only real question of import that I keep in mind, is will I be able to look at myself during my life review, and not hang my head too far.
 
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