Sandy Hook Conspiracy

But I have listened to Wolfgang Halbig, and the whole gambit as walked around the school and claimed it was run down, and that the toilets were ordered before the investigators got there, and the triage fiasco, and all of that and more. And I am still not convinced...

He makes valid points. He is without question the most experienced person to comment on the subject. The response to his legitimate questioning was threats from the state police. There are also many of the parents and children that are known to be actors. And finally (though it is a weak point) you have the body language and misstatements of supposedly grieving parents and children.

Hitchen's razor is a great thing. That's what I'm using to cut off the unsubstantiated claims of the media.
 
I think the invocation of Hitchen's Razor is a bit outrageous here. There was massive reporting on this issue with various official agencies corroborating that a horrific loss of life did, indeed, occur. If that 'standard' is insufficient, then one must reasonably apply Hitchen's Razor to anything you take on authority. Scientific papers, sports scores, birth records, population records, etc. You simply can't take anyone's word on anything because you must invoke a standard of proof for everything. That standard, obviously in this case for those invoking the term, would NOT include massive media coverage, witness reports, and official agency statements.

As I've stated repeatedly, I am incredibly dubious of conspiracy theories for all the (I believe "obvious") reasons.

This seemed an interesting read: http://www.salon.com/2013/01/18/your_comprehensive_answer_to_every_sandy_hook_conspiracy_theory/
 
I think the invocation of Hitchen's Razor is a bit outrageous here. There was massive reporting on this issue with various official agencies corroborating that a horrific loss of life did, indeed, occur.

Malf invoked it.

I merely pointed out the party making the positive claim is the party claiming a mass murder occurred at Sandy Hook. There's a lot reasons to question that claim, and they haven't adequately proved it to me so I shave it off.

As the kids these days like to say: pics, or it didn't happen. There's no pics of the Sandy Hook aftermath.

If that 'standard' is insufficient, then one must reasonably apply Hitchen's Razor to anything you take on authority. Scientific papers, sports scores, birth records, population records, etc.

I initially accepted the authority of the mainstream narrative on Sandy Hook until it was contradicted by another authority. I have two contradicting authorities. Halbig with his background as an educator, school principal, police officer, highway patrol officer, and school safety instructor with direct personal experience at Columbine, appears to me to be much more of an authority than any overly made-up face on TV who is very low on facts and very big on emotion and combining the narrative with immediate lobbying for gun control.

Halbig raised reasonable questions about the reported events at Sandy Hook. The response was that state police visited Halbig and threatened him if he didn't shut up. For a person with an extensive background in law enforcement and a sense of justice like Halbig who dedicated his life to making sure things like this didn't happen or if they did happen, were dealt with in the best way possible, he couldn't let it go and he has paid an enormous personal price for what he believes is justice.

So after hearing a contradicting authority I looked into it a bit more, and the things he said checked out. And then I also looked at the videos showing some of the "crisis actors" and the body language didn't match up. Some of the alleged victims' parents are known actors like David Wheeler who also played Special Agent Bill Aldenberg and is seen in numerous clips dressed up like an FBI agent and obviously completely inexperienced with weapons. I can say that on my own authority being fairly proficient with guns and also being somewhat of a student of body language and psychology.

I mean look at this goober, David Wheeler, a.k.a. Special Agent Aldenberg:
David_Wheeler.jpg

His pistol magazines are going in random directions. Any idiot who's practiced reloading a pistol knows all your magazines go the same direction. He's fiddling with his helmet, pants on the ground, kind of out of shape for a SWAT guy...

And here he is again carrying a rifle like its a shovel, holding it by the magazine with the muzzle swinging around in the air pointing at god knows what behind him. He's clearly an actor.
David_Wheeler_2.jpg


Here's the video I pulled these from:

And if you don't shoot, you wouldn't notice these things or think they're significant, and by themselves they are not. Just little things I noticed for the second time watching this video. But all the little things add up to a sufficient level of doubt for me to conclude the positive claim is unsubstantiated and Sandy Hook didn't happen.


If you truly want to find the highest level of truth, you should make the strongest possible case for the opposing view and then attack that with your best arguments. This article certainly does not make the strongest possible case for the opposing view, so in that sense it makes strawman arguments that are 1 or 2 sentences and then knocks them down in a few more sentences. The only purpose this article serves is to make people who "know" Sandy Hook really happened more confident in their belief that Sandy Hook really happened.
 
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I'm totally confused on this Sandy Hook Conspiracy thing. Quite frankly, at this stage, I find it completely disgusting.

First, what's the possible reasonable rationale for such a thing to have been undertaken? Actually, any supporters of this conspiracy, please don't bother to respond. I'm sure there's a convoluted, utterly violating of Occam's Razor response.

Hurm, let's just deal with your appeal to an alternative 'authority' in Halbig. What, exactly, makes this guy an authority? I've spent just a brief hour trying to read about this guy (vs. what he's asserted) and have found nothing to tell me he's worthy of an authority tag. You rattled off his list of occupations, none of which include mass homicide investigation, scientific method work, investigating journalism, or the like.

There are several anti-hoaxer sites with reams of content actively refuting Halbig and other hoaxers (as they call them).

New York Magazine ran this, less than flattering, article last year: http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2016/09/the-sandy-hook-hoax.html

New York Magazine recently won 3 (tied for most) Ellie awards from the American Society of Magazine Editors.

The last straw for me was reports by several of these sites of Halbig demanding parents exhume their children to prove they've actually perished. What kind of sick lowlife would assert such a thing? Ask yourself how absolutely, undeniably certain you would have to be to even risk the possibility that you were potentially asking an actual parent of an actually dead child such a thing? Any reasonable person of right mind would avoid making such a statement out of common decency.
 
I'm totally confused on this Sandy Hook Conspiracy thing. Quite frankly, at this stage, I find it completely disgusting.



First, what's the possible reasonable rationale for such a thing to have been undertaken?

To create enough emotion and popular support to ban guns.

Actually, any supporters of this conspiracy, please don't bother to respond. I'm sure there's a convoluted, utterly violating of Occam's Razor response.

Oh sorry...

Hurm, let's just deal with your appeal to an alternative 'authority' in Halbig. What, exactly, makes this guy an authority?

He was a Florida State Trooper, a Customs Agent, a teacher, assistant principal, principal, involved with the Columbine aftermath and took what he learned to go on to be a school safety consultant for the last decade or so training school safety officers at over 4000 school districts.

Here's an article he wrote in 2007 for Campus Safety Magazine:
http://www.campussafetymagazine.com...ticipate-in-School-Safety-and-Security-Audits
The creditials given in this 2007 article state:
Wolfgang Halbig is currently the director of risk management for the Lake County (Fla.) Public Schools. He was formerly the executive director and national school safety consultant for the National Institute for School and Workplace Safety.

You rattled off his list of occupations, none of which include mass homicide investigation, scientific method work, investigating journalism, or the like.

Law enforcement officers are trained in investigation, forensics, criminology, etc.

I don't have time to read another link right now, but will try to later.
 
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I'm totally confused on this Sandy Hook Conspiracy thing. Quite frankly, at this stage, I find it completely disgusting.

First, what's the possible reasonable rationale for such a thing to have been undertaken? Actually, any supporters of this conspiracy, please don't bother to respond. I'm sure there's a convoluted, utterly violating of Occam's Razor response.

Hurm, let's just deal with your appeal to an alternative 'authority' in Halbig. What, exactly, makes this guy an authority? I've spent just a brief hour trying to read about this guy (vs. what he's asserted) and have found nothing to tell me he's worthy of an authority tag. You rattled off his list of occupations, none of which include mass homicide investigation, scientific method work, investigating journalism, or the like.

There are several anti-hoaxer sites with reams of content actively refuting Halbig and other hoaxers (as they call them).

New York Magazine ran this, less than flattering, article last year: http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2016/09/the-sandy-hook-hoax.html

New York Magazine recently won 3 (tied for most) Ellie awards from the American Society of Magazine Editors.

The last straw for me was reports by several of these sites of Halbig demanding parents exhume their children to prove they've actually perished. What kind of sick lowlife would assert such a thing? Ask yourself how absolutely, undeniably certain you would have to be to even risk the possibility that you were potentially asking an actual parent of an actually dead child such a thing? Any reasonable person of right mind would avoid making such a statement out of common decency.

I deleted my first paragraph in response. Sorry for being a cocky bastard. I realize that doesn't help anything.
 
To create enough emotion and popular support to ban guns.
That's a reasonable rationale? Its "reasonable" to assume that the volume of people required to execute such a plan would find this a "reasonable" course of action to achieve this goal? That they would be able to convince, cajole, etc the exponentially larger group of people in the local community, law enforcement, government, and business to also find this a "reasonable" course of action? (How many people would this be in total? Hundreds? Thousands?)

That staging such a horrific event which would cause immense pain to people across the globe (myself included) is something a "reasonable" person would find an acceptable course of action to drive support of gun bans?

I should further believe that the majority of people when approached to play their role in this plan would have found it "reasonable"? Again, this likely includes public servants, elected officials, corporate employees, educators, etc. None of them found this at all morally reprehensible? Those that did just shut up and let it happen?

Okay, let's move on as I knew this part would be fruitless.

He was a Florida State Trooper, a Customs Agent, a teacher, assistant principal, principal, involved with the Columbine aftermath and took what he learned to go on to be a school safety consultant for the last decade or so training school safety officers at over 4000 school districts.
A quick google search shows he was a State Trooper for a year and a Customs Agent for a year. Yet, both are listed as appeals to his authority as a Mass Causality Incident investigator.

Teacher, assistant principal, and principal are further provided. I know literally dozens of folks with one or more of those vocations on their resume. There are so many in the U.S. as to be ubiquitous. Listing these as "authoritative" in this setting would be akin to describing a gate agent for American Airlines as "authoritative" on airline crash fatalities.

So, we're left with his safety consulting and directorship of School and Workplace safety. Sure, its reasonable to see this as relevant to the overall aspects of school safety, etc. but still leaves us totally without any experience to make him an "authority" on investigating an MCI. Oh wait, then there was this:

Law enforcement officers are trained in investigation, forensics, criminology, etc.
Again, he was in law enforcement for one year as a State Trooper if memory serves. I am to accept that this qualifies him as an expert in MCI investigation?

Summing it up, I do not see how the genesis of this supposed conspiracy meets any type of reasonableness standard. Not only would it be exceedingly difficult to execute but the risk of exposure would be mammoth. That doesn't even address what I see as the very real possibility of moral people stopping it from ever moving forward. I further don't see how this particular individual's credentials make him an authority in even a remote sense.

So why, again, would you invoke Hitchen's Razor when Occam's seems the much better blade?
 

That is simply a terrible write-up.

"That is what happened to the family of Noah Pozner, a 6-year-old with tousled brown hair and lollipop-red lips, the youngest of the 26 children and staff members gunned down in 2012 at Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Conn."

What has the colour of his hair and lips got to do with anything, apart from appealing to emotions.

And not a single mention in that article about the school being out of commission when the event took place.

I don't know myself if Alex Jones is claiming that the democrats did it. That sounds like a very strange idea.

The perpetrators has not got a single leg to stand on in this case and appears to be afraid that Trump will reveal the scam. But then again, this might have been in the cards all along. The strategy of tension.
 
Yeah, how dare someone write an article about the harassment of the Newtown community by conspiracy enthusiasts. Outrageous.
 
Its "reasonable" to assume that the volume of people required to execute such a plan would find this a "reasonable" course of action to achieve this goal? That they would be able to convince, cajole, etc the exponentially larger group of people in the local community, law enforcement, government, and business to also find this a "reasonable" course of action? (How many people would this be in total? Hundreds? Thousands?)

This is always the go to response to conspiracy theories... an argument from incredulity, a demand for a full explanation of how exactly the thing was accomplished, and assumptions about human nature based on the naive assumption that everyone else is as honest and good hearted as you are.

We don't know how many people were actually involved or how many played a role but were duped, and we don't know how exactly this was accomplished or what kind of coercion took place... we can guess that if anyone needed coercion it came the same way that it came to Halbig: threats from the state police, but we don't have to know what exactly did happen to be highly skeptical about the claims about what did happen which are not supported by the evidence and supported only by the non-eye witness testimony of people - some of whom were actors and anti-gun activists before Sandy Hook.

It is reasonable that there are enough actors and clandestine operatives out there who also strongly and passionately believe that the moral imperative to ban guns trumps honesty. The mindset is: "everyone knows we need to ban guns, but it's only the NRA and a bunch of know-nothing hillbillies in flyover country that are stopping us from progressing... those idiots deserve to be deceived... it's for the children."

That staging such a horrific event which would cause immense pain to people across the globe (myself included) is something a "reasonable" person would find an acceptable course of action to drive support of gun bans?

"Reasonable people" reason their way into all sorts of absurd positions.

Why have Christians blown up abortion clinics? When you believe the moral imperative to stop the murder of children trumps the moral imperative to not murder the people who are murdering children, then by their logic it is the only reasonable course of action.

Okay, let's move on as I knew this part would be fruitless.

I don't think dialogue in good faith is ever fruitless.

A quick google search shows he was a State Trooper for a year and a Customs Agent for a year. Yet, both are listed as appeals to his authority as a Mass Causality Incident investigator.

Teacher, assistant principal, and principal are further provided. I know literally dozens of folks with one or more of those vocations on their resume. There are so many in the U.S. as to be ubiquitous. Listing these as "authoritative" in this setting would be akin to describing a gate agent for American Airlines as "authoritative" on airline crash fatalities.

So, we're left with his safety consulting and directorship of School and Workplace safety. Sure, its reasonable to see this as relevant to the overall aspects of school safety, etc. but still leaves us totally without any experience to make him an "authority" on investigating an MCI. Oh wait, then there was this:

Again, he was in law enforcement for one year as a State Trooper if memory serves. I am to accept that this qualifies him as an expert in MCI investigation?

As Scott Adams, author of Dilbert cartoons has said: the key to success is stacking skills. Maybe you're an okay artist and an okay comedian and maybe you've worked in business and tech a little... all very common skills, but when you stack them together, you end up with something far more rare and valuable.

Same thing here. Sure these professions individually are a dime a dozen, but to find someone who has experience in all of them as well as who has trained and consulted for years at thousands of schools on how to respond to exactly such an incident... do you know dozens of people like that???

Summing it up, I do not see how the genesis of this supposed conspiracy meets any type of reasonableness standard. Not only would it be exceedingly difficult to execute but the risk of exposure would be mammoth. That doesn't even address what I see as the very real possibility of moral people stopping it from ever moving forward.

Again, arguments from incredulity, and the naive assumption that it would be difficult to find people who don't share your same moral standards.

I further don't see how this particular individual's credentials make him an authority in even a remote sense.

I think you're letting your "disgust" emotion prevent you from conceding the obvious objective fact that his credentials do make him an authority on the subject of school shootings. He helped schools come up with action plans on how to respond to school shootings. He trained school safety officers on how to prevent and deal with school shootings. If you cannot acknowledge his authority on school shootings, you're not being objective.

So why, again, would you invoke Hitchen's Razor when Occam's seems the much better blade?

Again, Malf invoked it.

I pointed out that Hitchen's razor applies to the positive claim. I don't know exactly what happened. I don't have to prove exactly what happened to be fairly confident of what didn't happen.
 
What do you do with information that contradicts your view? Such as, we have a well-liked member here who's cousin worked and was killed at Sandy Hook. It's somewhere in this thread. Also spine chilling 911 calls, pictures of bullet holes in cars in the parking lot, Monthly Newletters from Sandy Hook with lists of staff members (none of whom have said they didn't work there), and children interviewed. We know there was confusion about the name of the Principal and some of the newspapers got things wrong, they always do. The cops on scene look like rent-a-cop, cars blocking the ambulances and other mistakes and panic driven stupidity...All are most likely the result of a small town getting caught unprepared in a situation beyond comprehension.
The stuff that arrived mysteriously was most likely town members helping out with whatever they could without being asked. Own a portapotty service? send some portapotties. Own a pizza joint, send some pizza. It's what small towns do in an emergency.

I think the real conspiracy is the one where information is manipulated to make it seem like those children didn't die, and accuse those parents of having an agenda because they are going after the thing that killed their children - assault weapons in the hands of the mentally ill and irresponsible storage of said guns. I'm with them.
 
What do you do with information that contradicts your view? Such as, we have a well-liked member here who's cousin worked and was killed at Sandy Hook. It's somewhere in this thread. Also spine chilling 911 calls, pictures of bullet holes in cars in the parking lot, Monthly Newletters from Sandy Hook with lists of staff members (none of whom have said they didn't work there), and children interviewed. We know there was confusion about the name of the Principal and some of the newspapers got things wrong, they always do. The cops on scene look like rent-a-cop, cars blocking the ambulances and other mistakes and panic driven stupidity...All are most likely the result of a small town getting caught unprepared in a situation beyond comprehension.
The stuff that arrived mysteriously was most likely town members helping out with whatever they could without being asked. Own a portapotty service? send some portapotties. Own a pizza joint, send some pizza. It's what small towns do in an emergency.

I think the real conspiracy is the one where information is manipulated to make it seem like those children didn't die, and accuse those parents of having an agenda because they are going after the thing that killed their children - assault weapons in the hands of the mentally ill and irresponsible storage of said guns. I'm with them.

If that's the conclusion you've come to after evaluating everything, I find that perfectly respectable. I'm not interested in debating every point about this because I simply don't have time. What I looked at led me to be extremely skeptical of the claims about what happened.

I don't purport to know what exactly happened, but it's clear to me that actors and some level of fakery and was involved.

When legitimage questions were asked by an expert consultant in school safety, those questions were met with threats and silence. This entirely inappropriate and illegal response is then justified with indignation that an expert would dare bring pain to the victims families by asking questions.
 
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When legitimage questions were asked by an expert consultant in school safety, those questions were met with threats and silence.
Like his "legitimate" response to one of the a parents when he told them he'd only meet if they exhumed the body?

What proof is there of the intimidation or are we relying on his expert witness testimony again?

Sorry Hurm, I enjoy talking with you and I don't mean to be so aggressive here, but I question your judgment in placing any credence in this Halbig character. Nothing about him seems to justify this type of appeal to authority.
 
Like his "legitimate" response to one of the a parents when he told them he'd only meet if they exhumed the body?

What proof is there of the intimidation or are we relying on his expert witness testimony again?

Sorry Hurm, I enjoy talking with you and I don't mean to be so aggressive here, but I question your judgment in placing any credence in this Halbig character. Nothing about him seems to justify this type of appeal to authority.

How do you feel about the authority of someone like Dr. Steve Pieczenik who also says Sandy Hook was a staged event?

He is basically Mr. False Flag Psy-Op having run covert Psy ops and regime change operations in many countries for many andministrations.

Dr. Steve R. Pieczenik, MD, PhD is a critically acclaimed author of psycho-political thrillers and the co-creator of the New York Times best-selling “Tom Clancy’s Op-Center” and “Tom Clancy’s Net Force” book series. He is also one of the world’s most experienced international crisis managers and hostage negotiators. His novels are based on his twenty years experience in resolving international crises for five U.S. administrations.

Dr. Pieczenik received his B.A. from Cornell University,trained in Psychiatry at Harvard and has both an M.D. from Cornell University Medical College and a Ph.D. in International Relations from M.I.T.

He was the first psychiatrist ever to receive a PhD. focusing on international relations, and is the only psychiatrist to ever have served as a Deputy Assistant Secretary of State. He served four presidents as Deputy Assistant Secretary of State under Nixon, Ford, Carter, and Bush Sr. and was a Senior Policy Planner under president Reagan. Dr. Pieczenik worked directly with, and reported directly to, Secretaries of State Henry Kissinger, Cyrus Vance, George Schultz and James Baker, as well as the respective White Houses. Dr. Pieczenik was drafted into the Vietnam War. He was assigned in the Public Health Services with the rank of Navy Captain (0-6) to run three psychiatric wards at St. Elizabeth’s Hospital in Washington, D.C., including a ward where serial killers were housed. He was subsequently offered a promotion to Rear Admiral (0-7), which he refused on the grounds that he felt honored enough to serve his country, did not want to take a pension and wished to return to civilian life to follow his passions as a physician, entrepreneur and novelist.

Dr. Pieczenik is an expert in psychological warfare, political psychology, regime change, intelligence, counterintelligence and covert operations. During his career as a senior State Department official, Dr. Pieczenik utilized his unique abilities and expertise to develop strategies and tactics that were instrumental in resolving major conflicts in Asia, the Middle East, Latin America, Europe and the United States.
Dr. Pieczenik was the principal International Crisis Manager and Hostage Negotiator under Secretaries Kissinger and Vance. During this time he developed conflict resolution techniques that were instrumental in saving over five hundred hostages in different terrorist episodes, including the Hanafi Muslim Siege in Washington, DC, the TWA Croatian Hijacking, the Aldo Moro Kidnapping, the JRA Hijacking, the PLO Hijacking, and many other incidents involving terrorists such as Idi Amin, Muammar Quaddafi, Carlos, FARC, Abu Nidal and Saddam Hussein. Based on these experiences, Dr. Pieczenik, along with other senior officials at the State Department developed the mandate to create Delta Force and other quick-strike special forces units that could be used in future hostage situations and international crises. Dr. Pieczenik resigned over President Carter’s handling of the Iran Hostage siege. He was recruited by Dr. Richard Solomon to the RAND Corporation in Santa Monica, CA to develop the strategy and tactics using the principles of psychological warfare to dismantle the Soviet Union without the use of military force.

He was subsequently recruited into the Reagan Policy Planning Staff at the State Department. While at the State Department, Dr. Pieczenik was tasked with creating and implementing regime change in Panama to overthrow General Manuel Noriega. As a result, General Noriega repeatedly accused Dr. Pieczenik in the Panamanian newspaper, La Critica, of being an “assassin” and neutralizing several of Noriega’s associates. This is a charge Dr. Pieczenik neither confirms nor denies.

Dr. Pieczenik helped develop negotiation strategies for major U.S.- Soviet arms control summits under the Reagan administration. He was also involved in advising senior officials on important psycho-political dynamics and conflict mediation strategies for President Carter’s successful Camp David Peace Conference. In 1991, Dr. Pieczenik was a chief architect of the Cambodian Peace Conference in Paris.

He has worked with Dr. Richard Solomon to develop the theoretical basis for the Chinese Negotiating Behavioral Strategy, a classic in transcultural negotiations.

Dr. Pieczenik continues to volunteer his time and expertise as a consultant to the Department of Defense. He does not accept any remuneration for his services. He felt honored to work for his country that adopted him as a refugee and saved his family from extermination in the Holocaust. He has made it his life-long commitment to work to protect and preserve America’s liberties and freedoms, even when it meant going against the president of the United States and the very organizations with which he was working. To this day he still strongly believes in the integrity of the Office of the Presidency and the Republic, both of which must be bereft of corruption, deception, betrayal, collusion and crony capitalism by any and all parties, including financial, political, medical, pharmaceutical and academic special interests. His basic belief is that no one person is indispensable to the viability of State.

Dr. Pieczenik has started several successful companies, employing his methodologies in various industries, including investment banking, publishing, television/film and medicine. He has been directly involved as an Angel Investor with starting twenty-eight companies.
 
I guess Steve Pieczenik is "completely fucking ignorant and doesn't know dick"?

I know nothing about him. I've just wiki'd him and he seems to have carved a reputation as a maverick troublemaker.

At least I've just discovered that Osama bin Laden died from Marfan's Syndrome in 2001.
 
How do you feel about the authority of someone like Dr. Steve Pieczenik who also says Sandy Hook was a staged event?
I don't know him. Has he laid out a valid proof supporting his counter claim? Or are you asserting I should take his claim at face value because of his resume?

Remember, I do not agree with your chosen position to assert the "positive claim" of the Sandy Hook shootings must be defended. I think its irrational for reasons I've previously described.

Pieczenik, Halbig and anyone else pushing the conspiracy agenda have the burden of proof. Their arguments (at least Halbig's) have proven unconvincing to me.
 
And no accounting for Gilles Rousseau (father of substitute teacher Lauren Rousseau) whom Ian confirmed is a real person related to his wife?

I mean the pure serendipity to have a member of this community validate these are actual people is pretty remarkable. Yet, when it came up on page 18 of this thread, it was skipped over and devolved right back to the regularly scheduled programming including several users posting really nasty stuff about the dead children.
 
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