Skeptiko Community Heart to Heart

#21
Hasn't it been much longer than 3 months? I still don't understand why you guys are upset about the flat-farther?
Possibly it has been yes. And I wasn't completely innocent myself I admit. I've probably contributed towards all of this too in some fashion. But I've been able to change my mind based on new data for certain things. And came to some uncomfortable realisation that I have a tendency towards paranoid thinking. I'm sure you can understand that this past year has turbo charged anyone with that underlying psychology.

I just managed to get out of the deepest parts somehow. I still keep an eye on it, but I make an active effort to try and find evidence that goes against. I mean we all have our biases right? It would be a pretty boring place if otherwise. I just try and keep it 'sensible' now.

For wesley, he must have fell right into the 'non-mainstream' trap of all round crap. For how long, who knows. But I think you know that you are being a little facetious with your comment because you know as well as I do that the flat earth stuff is nonsense too.
 
#22
Hasn't it been much longer than 3 months? I still don't understand why you guys are upset about the flat-farther? He seems to fit right in with the kind of thinking here. I mean, you have Alex and Eric claiming, with a straight face, that anyone wearing masks during a pandemic on the advice of people who have the expertise to understand research and public health is a pawn/willing participant in a fascist takeover by Satanic/occult forces. Wesley actually looks pretty sane and rational by comparison.
Actually, Ellis, I consider you to be part of the problem here. You're a very literal person that, in addition to lacking both imagination and ability to grasp subtleties, merely nit picks, like a gadfly, and only has to offer whatever the mainstream media/democrat party has to say. Your perspective is utterly non-contributory because all we need to do is turn on CNN or listen to a Biden speech and we'd get the same material.

Only an idiot thinks that masks stop a virus. Only an idiot walks around outside with a mask on, or drives, alone, wearing a mask. Yet one sees it all of the time. There is more involved than a fear of the flu/bad cold.

Fortunately, you are pretty much easily ignored. I consider you to be ambient background noise at worse. I am not at all sure I understand why you are here.

Then again, you're better than the many morons here who don't believe that the destruction on 9/11 was caused by jihadists hijacking airplanes; even though we all saw airplanes hitting buildings.

I don't know, maybe, at the end of the day, this is just a place for delusional idiots to jaw off.
 
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#23
Actually, Ellis, I consider you to be part of the problem here.
Actually Eric, I consider you to be equally part of the ‘problem’. It’s no big deal, I enjoy reading many of your posts, and I agree with you on a lot of things, you‘re interesting and unusual. I haven't posted here for over a year, had no wish to until today, when I saw that Alex is effectively going to shut the forum down. I left when the others did, to set up PQ. Your character with such strong unbending opinions about certain topics pissed me off, talking to you was sometimes like attempting to break through a steel wall. Totally inflexible. You called Hurmanetar a “F’king Idiot” on another thread earlier, That’s the type of thing that put me off, but I’ve no hard feelings. Hurm is anything but an idiot, he simply has a different opinion about 9/11, as I do. You‘re a very intelligent man, but that doesn’t mean you get everything right. I’ve seen highly intelligent men talk utter shit about the Covid event this past eighteen months, no-one has exclusivity on ’truth’, whatever that turns out to be.

Until recently I’ve been fighting a lone battle on PQ, trying to persuade the people there that the Covid event was something big, something unusual, something they ought to be paying attention to. I still think that if nobody had said anything about Covid, the overwhelming majority of us would be none the wiser. Sure, some would have been unlucky and lost a parent or brother or sister, or more, but the facts are, people everyday lose others close to them. The overall excess deaths would not have been noticed by the average person. I would really like to see the overall death toll(s) if things had been approached differently. For example if nothing had been done, with and without lockdowns, the same with masks, social distancing (the one thing I think useful). What might the numbers have been if there had been no shutdown on early treatment by ivermectin, hydrochloroquine and other drugs.
The vaccines have been at best questionable imo. Maybe they lessen effects from the worst of the disease for a few months, but I think they have been far less effective and far more dangerous, especially to elderly people than is being made out. How many have really died within fourteen days of their second shot? They are recorded as unvaccinated!!!

I just think there are so many valid questions that are being ignored by the mainstream press, very similar to the questions that remain unanswered about 9/11. I don’t have many answers, but I know the questions that are important. Yes, I agree that probably jihadists were at the controls of the 75/6s that fateful day, but does that mean that other, closer to home groups weren‘t pulling the strings? Are people like Cheney and Rumsfeld capable of such duplicity? I leave it for others to make up their minds, as I have. Three thousand lives in return for changing the world‘s perception?

I have learned such a lot about about how our perceptions and thoughts influence our behaviour in the last five years, but this message has been slammed home in the last eighteen months. Just a casual throw away line that is interpreted as me supporting Trump can change everything. I don’t like Trump, but if forced, I would choose him over both Clinton & Biden. And many of my friends thought I was a rabid lefty until a few short years ago. I have not changed. I like to think I am far less tribal than most.

My wife & I remain unvaccinated, to the confusion of many of our well educated friends. In my case, its more about principle than anything else i think, I am pushing back against the stupidity as I see it. If I am one of the very unlucky people who get Covid and die, you might say I backed the wrong horse, but I think the principle will have been worth the sacrifice. My 20 year old daughter has a big needle phobia, which I think has been all that has prevented her from having the jabs. In her heart I think she feels that there is no need to have it, but still will fall to the propaganda. I really feel scared for her, without the pressure from the media and her silly tik-toc loving peers, none of us would feel scared, we’d be getting on with our lives.

I believe in God, I doubt that It will turn out to be anything like my pre conceived ideas. Maybe It will, who knows? I am turning more and more that direction to save my sanity. Voicing that alone, will bring its own judgements and perceptions. It’s amazing how close minded we actually can be. My own independent thinking has lost me many forum ‘pals’, and I am far less popular on PQ than I used to be. Voicing such unpopular opinions as those above brings the supposed easy going lefties to act like people that are the opposite of easy going, while all the time thinking that they are on the ‘right’ side. I’ve come to think that maybe there is no right side, only actions by individuals. So perhaps Eric, you and I have a bit more in common than we think.

In some ways Alex doesn’t really give a shit about the ‘community’ here, I doubt he ever has. It is what it is, but I will always be grateful to him for providing a vehicle for learning certain important lessons, it has been invaluable. Skeptiko has only been of limited interest to me for a few years now, but it will remain as a bright light in my memory.

And maybe if Alex goes through with his word, this too might be a lesson learned by Diverdown & others. The road to hell is paved with good intentions, next time someone asks you to ignore something. Try doing it!

And finally to Wesley, start your own site. ;)
I am 99.9% sure your ideas about flat Earth are crazy, but maybe the reason you are here has has more to do with teaching lessons to people’s acceptance of ideas they think are ‘crazy’, certainty and total closing of minds. Who knows? I certainly don’t!
 
#24
Why would Alex be shutting the forum down? Nobody is perfect and opinions, clarity etc is going to be different with different people and topics.
As for all the employed trolls (many on this forum imo) i think Alex should take it as a compliment as they wouldnt be here if something wasn't threatening the fucked up, ignorant and evil established order of things. Also i can see that it is very hard if not impossible to moderate employed trolls as they are often hard to spot and will keeping popping up one way or another anyway. Maybe part of the skeptiko experience is learning to navigate the trolls. Dealing with people with genuine different opinions, stuborness etc is easy imo (hi Eric :)). Can people not get played by two faced gangs of employed trolls tho? Skeptiko will make you stronger :)
 
#25
And maybe if Alex goes through with his word, this too might be a lesson learned by Diverdown & others. The road to hell is paved with good intentions, next time someone asks you to ignore something. Try doing it!
I know you mean well overall and this is your goodbye post so to speak Steve, but your statement here has rubbed me up the wrong way.

If something as simple as a post about my concerns for the forum can make the owner decide to go 'feck it all', and close it down, then it was only a matter of time really. There's nothing to be learned from that other than don't put your time and effort into something that someone doesn't care about.

So please, come off the high horse mate.



And finally to Wesley, start your own site. ;)
I am 99.9% sure your ideas about flat Earth are crazy, but maybe the reason you are here has has more to do with teaching lessons to people’s acceptance of ideas they think are ‘crazy’, certainty and total closing of minds. Who knows? I certainly don’t!

I like how you imply that perhaps those of us who disagreed with wes are the ones who need a lesson in closed mindedness. I mean, come on man, the irony is off the charts.

But I guess in jest, you said it yourself!
 
#26
Actually, I consider you to be part of the problem here.

Fortunately, you are pretty much easily ignored.

I don't know, maybe, at the end of the day, this is just a place for delusional idiots to jaw off.
Yeah, that's they way it works around here. Anyone who disagrees with me is the problem. Just ignore them they're delusional. Nobody's changing hearts and minds.

Why change it now?

I came for the parapsychology, but there's not much discussion on that. I'm also a science geek, so I pop in on discussions involving stuff I kinda know about. That's about it.
 
#27
Yeah, that's they way it works around here. Anyone who disagrees with me is the problem. Just ignore them they're delusional. Nobody's changing hearts and minds.

Why change it now?

I came for the parapsychology, but there's not much discussion on that. I'm also a science geek, so I pop in on discussions involving stuff I kinda know about. That's about it.
of course :) i imagine you more like brunette. am i right :)
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#28
Yeah, that's they way it works around here. Anyone who disagrees with me is the problem. Just ignore them they're delusional. Nobody's changing hearts and minds.

Why change it now?

I came for the parapsychology, but there's not much discussion on that. I'm also a science geek, so I pop in on discussions involving stuff I kinda know about. That's about it.
Where's Malf lately?
 
#29
I know you mean well overall and this is your goodbye post so to speak Steve, but your statement here has rubbed me up the wrong way.
In some ways Alex doesn’t really give a shit about the ‘community’ here, I doubt he ever has.
Maybe I’m sick of being ‘rubbed up the wrong way’ by people like you, who’s ‘do good’ actions look effectively as having shut the forum down? I get the sense that Alex has little time for certain types, maybe you (and I) are among them?

I like how you imply that perhaps those of us who disagreed with wes are the ones who need a lesson in closed mindedness.
Am I not in the same group? Saying “I am 99.9% sure your ideas about flat Earth are crazy…”. My point is that there is a big difference between 99.9 & 100 percent. 100 means the door is firmly shut. They are certain!

I get that you’ve chosen a side, that’s your choice, it’s understandable that you’re a bit miffed, but fwiw, I’d recommend that you don’t become a second ‘Silence’. He’s a fuckin’ menace imo, sitting on the largely mainstream fence, pouncing on every ‘off the wall’ post he disagrees with. You’ve recently come to PQ seeking ‘balance’, away from the ‘madness’ on Skeptiko. The irony is that those at PQ who seem quite happy with how things are going with the Covid event, the liberal types, seem not to realise that thinking like their own will not be far from the top of the ‘censors hit list’. Wait and see.
 
#30
Maybe I’m sick of being ‘rubbed up the wrong way’ by people like you, who’s ‘do good’ actions look effectively as having shut the forum down? I get the sense that Alex has little time for certain types, maybe you (and I) are among them?
'do good' actions? What, a simple post sharing my thoughts and feelings is enough to shut the forum down? I'm the one to 'blame'? (as if there is anyone to 'blame').

Honestly, that's really insulting and it's pissing me off that you would take the lazy route of venting your anger with Alex's decision on me.


Am I not in the same group? Saying “I am 99.9% sure your ideas about flat Earth are crazy…”. My point is that there is a big difference between 99.9 & 100 percent. 100 means the door is firmly shut. They are certain!
Of course the door is firmly shut. 100 percent not flat earth. It's not even arguable. I don't see why that is controversial to you, especially as you used to be a pilot. I get the 'leave room for doubt' thing as a general philosophy, but there really is no doubt.


I get that you’ve chosen a side, that’s your choice, it’s understandable that you’re a bit miffed
Chosen a side? What in the blazes are you talking about?

but fwiw, I’d recommend that you don’t become a second ‘Silence’. He’s a fuckin’ menace imo, sitting on the largely mainstream fence, pouncing on every ‘off the wall’ post he disagrees with.
Over time I've came to see Silence's approach as fairly reasonable tbh. We all have topics we want to respond to and are interested in.


You’ve recently come to PQ seeking ‘balance’, away from the ‘madness’ on Skeptiko. The irony is that those at PQ who seem quite happy with how things are going with the Covid event, the liberal types, seem not to realise that thinking like their own will not be far from the top of the ‘censors hit list’. Wait and see.
I've always been on PQ. Just posted less often in the last year or so. Not sure what your overall point is.
 
#31
Of course the door is firmly shut. 100 percent not flat earth. It's not even arguable. I don't see why that is controversial to you, especially as you used to be a pilot. I get the 'leave room for doubt' thing as a general philosophy, but there really is no doubt
Hi Diver,
Gonna pretend i dont think Wesley is an employed troll. Whatever :)
Lets say you know he is wrong 100% on the flat earth thing. Amongst his flat earth ramblings could it not be possible that he bring up some other valid points that you i or anyone else could learn from? i say that but i hardly ever read his posts lol. Also can people not be wrong about things? Maybe by thinking 'out the box', even if wrong in this case, it will help him realise more profound things in the future than he would have done otherwise if still thinking 'in the box'.
 
#32
Chosen a side? What in the blazes are you talking about?
To help answer your question I’ve brought some of one of your posts across from PQ.

I don't know what is going on over there. At the risk of sounding like a hypocrite and also going off topic, (because I had been a part of the problem) the quality has went down pretty sharply over time over there.
Over the past few months I've done a bit of introspection and realised that I was caught in some paranoid worldview, and I was mired down in conspiracies. I think what done it for me was the inability for others whom I conversed with or involved with, to change their mind once new data came in. And then also seeing others get progressively nuttier, or encountering people nuttier than I was at the time, given free reign without challenge to push their views.
It obvious to me that (in a way) you’ve chosen…

1)Psience Quest over Skeptiko.

2) Mainstream over ‘conspiracy’.

Not sure what your overall point is.
I‘m not really sure either, but maybe it’s that it seems that no-one has the whole truth, or the right to call anyone else wrong. In my opinion, and it’s only that, the recent Covid thing has shown us how difficult it is to get ‘closer to truth’ when human ego, money and bias gets involved. It seems to me that we’re all basically ignorant and biased to hell. We think we know, but how much do we really know about our universe, and our own behaviour too.

Maybe the best thing for mankind to do would be to stay quiet for a while?
 
#33
Hi Diver,
Gonna pretend i dont think Wesley is an employed troll. Whatever :)
Lets say you know he is wrong 100% on the flat earth thing. Amongst his flat earth ramblings could it not be possible that he bring up some other valid points that you i or anyone else could learn from? i say that but i hardly ever read his posts lol. Also can people not be wrong about things? Maybe by thinking 'out the box', even if wrong in this case, it will help him realise more profound things in the future than he would have done otherwise if still thinking 'in the box'.
Appreciate the response but really, it's just making something far more complex and esoteric than it has to be.

He's just an idiot. That's it.
 
#34
To help answer your question I’ve brought some of one of your posts across from PQ.





It obvious to me that (in a way) you’ve chosen…

1)Psience Quest over Skeptiko.

2) Mainstream over ‘conspiracy’.
I'm not picking sides. That's one of the reasons how I got into the whole mess I was in earlier this year and before.

If something is stupid, then it's stupid. If something has validity and legitimacy and there perhaps some truth to the matter, then it can be discussed.

It's not one side versus the other.

I‘m not sue either, but maybe it’s that it seems that no-one has the whole truth, or the right to call anyone else wrong.
Of course no-one has the whole truth. That's why exactly we debate and argue for/against things.

But I do have the right to call someone else wrong. It doesn't mean that they are. But it doesn't mean that they aren't either.

ElisR thinks I'm wrong in certain things for example. Fine. They have their view point. And if they argue for it well, then it can give me pause to think about whether my position is wrong too. Or I might just think that I haven't been convinced enough and I stand fast in my position.

Not once has wes ever had the idea he might be wrong. You can't seriously expect people to not give him a hard time for his position. Especially as we all bloody know that he has a bat shit crazy position!


In my opinion, and it’s only that, the recent Covid thing has shown us how difficult it is to get ‘closer to truth’ when human ego, money and bias gets involved. It seems to me that we’re all basically ignorant and biased to hell. We think we know, but how much do we really know about our universe, and our own behaviour too.
Well I could agree with you sentiment. Getting closer to truth does seem to becoming a difficult process.



Maybe the best thing for mankind to do would be to stay quiet for a while?
Hah! Good luck with that!

A lot of the 'chaos' that we all probably feel, obviously amplified by the COVID thing, I think in a big way is down to the effect that social media has had on all of our lives.


I think it could be successfully argued that it was a mistake to let the masses interact with this technology and have it integrated into their lives like this. It basically allows the lowest common denominator and the race to the bottom to infect everywhere and everything!
 
#35
For me, the fact that truth has become so contested and authority so distrusted is a sign that 'western' culture is in the process of collapsing.

Somewhat relatedly, I think the massive propaganda campaigns launched by governments during the pandemic have been extremely culturally corrosive, speeding the process of decline tremendously.

That we have been subject to state sanctioned propaganda on a perhaps unprecedented scale (even if one thinks it justified) is undeniable: The UK announced the deployment of its military's psychological warfare unit, Germany had meetings with the press to craft a policy of maximum fear, and many countries were subject to waves of social media bots punting lockdown and distributing those strange images of people collapsing in the street that emanated from China circa early 2020.

I also worry that we have been acclimatised to totalitarianism during this process. Again, even if one thinks it 100% justified, there can be no argument here: The policies enacted by many governments are text book, dictionary definition examples of totalitarianism.

Anyway, if anyone wants to see what a collapsed or collapsing culture looks like, just take a peek at Germany, possibly the world's most civilized country at the time, in the 1920s & 30s, and pre-revolutionary Russia.
 
#36
@Steve/Stan

Obviously I think you are doing the right thing by refusing the vaccines, and I wanted to point out that I have heard that taking vitamin D (2000 iu, which is one high strength tablet) greatly reduces the risk of

a) Getting COVID
and
b) If you do get it, going on to severe symptoms.

This is because this vitamin improves the functioning of the immune system, so it also reduces your chance of getting flu and other assorted bugs. If you don't take a gross excess of the stuff it is also harmless.

Vitamin C (one gram per day) is also recommended, but if you only want to take one thing, I'd take Vitamin D. The interesting thing about Vitamin D is that people also make it in their skin in sunlight - which may account for the seasonality of flu, COVID, and numerous other bugs!

In general big pharma effectively run medical things, and they hate vitamins because they are utterly cheap and shut out their much more expensive drugs!

David
 
#37
Obviously I think you are doing the right thing by refusing the vaccines, and I wanted to point out that I have heard that taking vitamin D (2000 iu, which is one high strength tablet)
Thanks David.
I do take both Vitamin C and D supplements daily, as well as trying to get some sun when I can. In many ways I sort of wish I had Covid already, so that I could relax and forget about it. Not that I am too bothered. As my dad used to be fond of saying, “What’s for ye won’t go by ye.”

Is it possible that I’ve had it but didn’t even know?
 
#38
Yeah, that's they way it works around here. Anyone who disagrees with me is the problem. Just ignore them they're delusional. Nobody's changing hearts and minds.

Why change it now?

I came for the parapsychology, but there's not much discussion on that. I'm also a science geek, so I pop in on discussions involving stuff I kinda know about. That's about it.
Fair enough. I wanted to come here for the parapsychology too. However, we should all be honest, this is first and foremost a conspiracy theory podcast/discussion site. Pretty much the only people left here are conspiracy theorists and a few who are anti-conspiracy theory. But that's what this is - conspiracies all day, every day.

Alex is conspiracy theorist, big time. It's what he has fundamentally become. I guess we should recognize that and decide that if we aren't into conspiracy theories, we should leave and let the conspiracy theorists enjoy their echo chamber.
 
#39
Thanks David.
I do take both Vitamin C and D supplements daily, as well as trying to get some sun when I can. In many ways I sort of wish I had Covid already, so that I could relax and forget about it. Not that I am too bothered. As my dad used to be fond of saying, “What’s for ye won’t go by ye.”

Is it possible that I’ve had it but didn’t even know?
And zinc. Helps grab things and flush them out.
But yes, best to just get it and get it over with and develop natural immunity. Not donate one's body to science.
Supposedly 80% or more of US have been exposed, gotten it, or such. We're already over the hump. The rest is LIES.
Trust in nature the the wondrous mostly untapped potential of humans. Not Dr Frankenstein or The Matrix. Not really a future I want to be a part of there. Definitely not sustainable in so many ways.
Exciting times. I'm PSYCHED.
 
#40
And zinc. Helps grab things and flush them out.
But yes, best to just get it and get it over with and develop natural immunity. Not donate one's body to science.
Supposedly 80% or more of US have been exposed, gotten it, or such. We're already over the hump. The rest is LIES.
Trust in nature the the wondrous mostly untapped potential of humans. Not Dr Frankenstein or The Matrix. Not really a future I want to be a part of there. Definitely not sustainable in so many ways.
Exciting times. I'm PSYCHED.
I am always a bit cautious about zinc because I don't know how much I already get in food, and as a heavy metal, it is obviously going to be harmful if I get too much.

Amazingly Boris (UK) has backed away from further lockdowns AND vaccine passports. I also read that Biden has backed away from vaccine passports.

I wonder if there is any analogy with the BSE crisis (mad cows). I have read on good authority that someone in the Ministry of Agriculture and Food realised that BSE started shortly after a new pesticide became compulsory on British farms. The pesticide was then withdrawn, but nothing was said officially. Sure enough, BSE simply ended.

By analogy, I wonder if a lot of the information about COVID that is now washing about, has made people in power realise that now is the time to back off. Maybe I am too much of an optimist - I don't know.

David
 
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