Statisticians issue warning over misuse of P values

#2
And you think that this means that parapsychology is more likely to engage in P-hacking than, say, regular psychology. We know your stance, but parapsychology was already being harassed about P values *before* this controversy. It is probably the one field that was trying to mind P-hacking before it was considered such an issue.
 
#3
And you think that this means that parapsychology is more likely to engage in P-hacking than, say, regular psychology. We know your stance, but parapsychology was already being harassed about P values *before* this controversy. It is probably the one field that was trying to mind P-hacking before it was considered such an issue.
So let's see: you've attributed a stance to me that I don't have, wouldn't conclude much from even if I did have it, and which, has little to do with any value I actually foresee getting from the material, which I have only had a chance to skim so far, but plan to read in more depth. Then you tell me you know my stance. Then you defend against other arguments that I haven't made.

If you find it entertaining to argue with yourself I won't stand in your way. If you want my actual views I suppose you'll ask.
 
#4
It's not your stance? Well excuse me good sir. Perhaps I was blinded by your unwavering (big "s") Skepticism (you know, the one that gained you that nickname here, "the wall", as in "talking to the wall") and erroneously assumed that you were heading down the very path that so many Skeptics have gone before.
 
#6
It's not your stance? Well excuse me good sir. Perhaps I was blinded by your unwavering (big "s") Skepticism (you know, the one that gained you that nickname here, "the wall", as in "talking to the wall") and erroneously assumed that you were heading down the very path that so many Skeptics have gone before.
I disagree. I've been around Arouet's postings a bit longer than you and I see his "stance" as pretty skeptical towards anything at first and has changed his mind in light of evidence several times.

I think a healthy skepticism is better than the bending-over for any pro-parapsychology article that trolls its way across this forum like many members do.

I'm really not sure how you attributed his linking of that article to a stance he may or may not (said he didn't have, actually) have about parapsychologists p-hacking and then when he clarifies it you don't believe him and continue on your attack of his "stance".
 
#7
I disagree. I've been around Arouet's postings a bit longer than you and I see his "stance" as pretty skeptical towards anything at first and has changed his mind in light of evidence several times.

I think a healthy skepticism is better than the bending-over for any pro-parapsychology article that trolls its way across this forum like many members do.

I'm really not sure how you attributed his linking of that article to a stance he may or may not (said he didn't have, actually) have about parapsychologists p-hacking and then when he clarifies it you don't believe him and continue on your attack of his "stance".
I have been around for a year, give or take, and I haven't seen his stances change a bit from before. And since P values are only mentioned in this forum to question parapsychology (just do a quick search), I don't think that it is a stretch to assume where this was going.

About "bending over for anything (related to) Parapsychology"... I don't see the relevancy there. I certainly don't accept everything and can be convinced when the evidence is good. And I'm pretty open about that, otherwise I would not have noted that ersby's arguments about the submarine RV session were sensible or have a conversation about the futility of aliens placing a base in the moon when there is a planet with protective atmosphere near by (with Alex)... Just this week. I have also discussed my (small "s") skepticism about any experience that happens to me while alone. But, I really doubt that Arouet is as open minded about anything regarded to PS as I am to arguments that are critical of it.

In any case, it's not my fault that he took a dismissive comment as an attack. After all, malf posts them all the time and I don't see anyone coming back with a two paragraph reply like that. It probably was my oversight, as I'm sure that the regular proponents could smell the bait and that is why they steered clear of the topic.
 
#8
There was no bait. That's the point Arouet was addressing and why I chimed in. So, it is your "fault that he took a dismissive comment as an attack" because it seems like it still is.
 
#11
It would be interesting to compare apparent misuse of P-values between scientific fields.

Where does parapsychology fall compared to plain old psychology which seems to be undergoing richness of embarrassments?
Probably as the "preppers" of this storm. Critics have presumed p-hacking a priori for decades, so it only makes sense for PSists to at least take it under consideration prior to every experiment.

That said, I have argued in the past that we need to modernize the protocol for PK experiments, which is dependent on (and can thus be dismissed by) the reliability of the RNGs. Radin's line of testing wavefunction collapse with control/meditator groups may be a way to go, but the equipment needs to be upgraded to high end level. If the results are replicated under this conditions, then we would have the equivalent of a gifted subset of test sudjects and could work that towards identifying if they also excel in areas such as presentiment/precognition.

About telepathy... I think that there might be something to autistic patients, we can bash Dr. Powell's protocol, but she is not the only one reporting this phenomena in that population... It needs research by other people.
 
S

Sciborg_S_Patel

#12
Probably as the "preppers" of this storm. Critics have presumed p-hacking a priori for decades, so it only makes sense for PSists to at least take it under consideration prior to every experiment.

That said, I have argued in the past that we need to modernize the protocol for PK experiments, which is dependent on (and can thus be dismissed by) the reliability of the RNGs. Radin's line of testing wavefunction collapse with control/meditator groups may be a way to go, but the equipment needs to be upgraded to high end level. If the results are replicated under this conditions, then we would have the equivalent of a gifted subset of test sudjects and could work that towards identifying if they also excel in areas such as presentiment/precognition.

About telepathy... I think that there might be something to autistic patients, we can bash Dr. Powell's protocol, but she is not the only one reporting this phenomena in that population... It needs research by other people.
Good call on isolated the best subjects and testing them.

I also think presentiment studies should use someone like this (credit to whoever posted this way back):

 
#13
Good call on isolated the best subjects and testing them.

I also think presentiment studies should use someone like this (credit to whoever posted this way back):

That is amazing. Being a "modern day samurai" he is most likely a practitioner of some form of Zen, which would be exactly the kind of thing that we would be looking for. Iaido has a relatively small range of movement, so adhering some non intrusive sensors on him should not be that hard.
 
#14
It would be interesting to compare apparent misuse of P-values between scientific fields.

Where does parapsychology fall compared to plain old psychology which seems to be undergoing richness of embarrassments?
Do you mean interesting in that you are simply curious, or do you think the results of such a comparison have a more practical use. How would you apply the results of such a study? What would be your goal?

To me the statement is interesting more for how it helps us think about p-values in general, to help understand what conclusions should be drawn from them, and in what circumstances. Not just with regard to p-hacking, which is only one of several factors the paper highlights.

Field reviews are useful to the extent that they can give a sense of the extent of a concern, but the more important task, in my opinion, is to apply the principles laid out in the statement on a paper by paper basis. The statement was released because of widespread misuse, in the author's opinion - across fields. Papers, whether in psychology, parapsychology or any other field, should be analysed on a case by case basis. Reference to opinions about the field in general does little to help interpret any given individual study.
 
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