Steven Snider, Parapolitical QAnon |529|

#41
Listening to this again, I catch Steven falling into Alex's unhinged CT thinking. That whole bit about military connections to various cults.

Sheesh. There used to be a draft. Pretty much everyone used to serve in the military. Also, there was WW2, Korea and VN which accelerated the draft. Correlation is not causation.

I'd be surprised if people with military connections weren't involved in cults. That would be statistically weird given how many served.

This is classic CTist "thinking". Keep that which confirms the CT and disregards a huge body of evidence that does not confirm it. Like, what of all of the cults formed prior to the US military? The history of the world is all about cults. Fucking Mohammed comes back into town saying he talked to allah in a cave and, a few years later, millions of adherents are killing each other over interpretations of the "prophet's" words and "infidels" because they don't believe. Was the CIA behind that? Joseph Smith goes into the woods and talks to a salamander and the mormon church is born. CIA involvement?

For chrissakes, people are stupid. They are followers. They require organization into a system. They want that; nay crave it. No one can process and make sense of this existence. It's too big. Way too big. Cultism is not being imposed from external. Everything is a "cult" and has been since day one. The CIA, military intelligence or whatever boogeyman you want to envision is not necessary to get people involved in any of that. It's almost like CTists are ignorant of, or deliberately ignore, history and anthropology. Then again, CTism is cult - just as is any organized belief system (including 'science"). It's all picking and choosing elements of infinity to focus on in order to create a system that keeps one from going mad and, hopefully, when talking about this material realm of consciousness, that brings physical security (in non-physical realms there are also "cults"). Then people forget that they have arbitrarily chosen and they get all serious thinking that they are objectively correct.

My primary objection to CTs is that they erode society and society is necessary to provide for our physical needs. It's fine to sit around organizing an alternate reality and a belief system from infinite possibilities, but, in the physical, sooner or later someone has to get up and get some food stuff together and cook dinner, you know.
 
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#42
More over a belief that some where - out there - there is no otherside, no beyond. We've arrived at the final truth. Fixed like a diamond that can be relied on, something that at last is beyond change.
We stop at the last galaxy, came to the great wall.
I don't think science says that. At best (worst?) it says we haven't found an otherside or beyond...yet. And stuff previously attributed to god(s) have turned out to have other causes...so far.

Scientism says that because we haven't found an otherside...yet...or because we have found non-god-like causes...so far...that there is no otherside or god(s) (using the word "god" as a placeholder). Don't blame science for that. :)
 
#43
Serious question for Alex (or any other CT proponent here).......

.......what are you after with all of this CT stuff? What do you hope to accomplish? What do you personally gain from it all?

I have a feeling an answer will be something like, "Reveal the truth".

To which I would respond "what truth? No one knows what the truth is. It's all just stories/myths that we live by" and "Why is 'the truth' something that is so concerning to you?".

If you respond "Justice", I'd have to ask "how?". I mean the conspiracy, according to you, is so deep, that justice can't be had short of armed revolution.

What if the CIA really is running pedo rings and blowing up buildings on American soil, killing thousands of citizens in the process? It's not, but what if it was? How would that knowledge make you healthier, wealthier and happier? What action would you/could you take? What use is the knowledge?

So, come on. Spill it. Where is all this CT stuff going?
 
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#44
Serious question for Alex (or any other CT proponent here).......

.......what are you after with all of this CT stuff? What do you hope to accomplish? What do you personally gain from it all?

I have a feeling an answer will be something like, "Reveal the truth".

To which I would respond "what truth? No one knows what the truth is. It's all just stories/myths that we live by" and "Why is 'the truth' something that is so concerning to you?".

If you respond "Justice", I'd have to ask "how?". I mean the conspiracy, according to you, is so deep, that justice can't be had short of armed revolution.

What if the CIA really is running pedo rings and blowing up buildings on American soil, killing thousands of citizens in the process? It's not, but what if it was? How would that knowledge make you healthier, wealthier and happier? What action would you/could you take? What use is the knowledge?

So, come on. Spill it. Where is all this CT stuff going?
Answer: The dismantling of systems of abuse.

I think generally CTists understand that abuse happens everywhere and always will. But there’s a great anticipation/joy when a System of abuse is dismantled, especially when you have lived under the effects of it, such as political correctness, child harm, extortion, suppression of bodily autonomy, predatory lending, etc..
The best example would be the feeling you get when you hear that someone who was wrongfully imprisoned for years gets our because new evedince revealed their innocence.

CTists ( I think) just have sensitivity in regard to those effects when systematic. However, they often remain humanly at least somewhat oblivious to those effects when it’s a system they believe to be the best available. (Like does the rest of humanity)
 
#45
Answer: The dismantling of systems of abuse.

I think generally CTists understand that abuse happens everywhere and always will. But there’s a great anticipation/joy when a System of abuse is dismantled, especially when you have lived under the effects of it, such as political correctness, child harm, extortion, suppression of bodily autonomy, predatory lending, etc..
The best example would be the feeling you get when you hear that someone who was wrongfully imprisoned for years gets our because new evedince revealed their innocence.

CTists ( I think) just have sensitivity in regard to those effects when systematic. However, they often remain humanly at least somewhat oblivious to those effects when it’s a system they believe to be the best available. (Like does the rest of humanity)
Interesting answer.

Has there ever been a system that didn't leave some parties abused, either objectively or, at least, subjectively?

How would you dismantle the system?

Are you so sure you're right that you will go ahead with creative destruction? Is that not arrogant and what every new boss says when replacing the old one (like the Soviets replacing the Tzar).

Have you considered that the system, for all of its flaws, is providing a higher standard of living than any other in history? Are you willing to risk destroying all that good along with whatever bad is there?

Where does the "abuse" come from? What if the potential for evil lives inside all of us? How would you keep that from expressing in the new world order you wish to establish? Do you believe that you can eliminate evil?

I don't feel abused. I take of myself and those close to me. How does one become a victim? Are the victims Truely powerless good little people just going about their innocent lives when suddenly they are attacked mercilessly by "the system"? How does this happen? Why does some minority feel abused and most do not?

Consider Epstein's under age girls. Why on earth is a 15/16 year old attractive girl going to work as a massage therapist for older men (as one or two of the girls were doing when recruited by Epstein). Where were the girls' parents? What were they thinking? Were the girls really that innocent that they didn't know what the game was? Not making excuses for Epstein, just framing this in terms of how one ends up being abused and whether or not it is really a system totally at fault.
 
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#46
Interesting answer.

Has there ever been a system that didn't leave some parties abused, either objectively or, at least, subjectively?

How would you dismantle the system?

Are you so sure you're right that you will go ahead with creative destruction? Is that not arrogant and what every new boss says when replacing the old one (like the Soviets replacing the Tzar).

Have you considered that the system, for all of its flaws, is providing a higher standard of living than any other in history? Are you willing to risk destroying all that good along with whatever bad is there?

Where does the "abuse" come from? What if the potential for evil lives inside all of us. How would you keep that from expressing in the new world order you wish to establish? Do you believe that you can eliminate evil?

I don't feel abused. I take of myself and those close to me. How does one become a victim? Are the victims Truely powerless good little people just going about their innocent lives when suddenly they are attacked mercilessly by "the system"? How does this happen? Why does some minority feel abused and most do not?

Consider Epstein's under age girls. Why on earth is a 15/16 year old attractive girl going to work as a massage therapist for older men (as one or two of the girls were doing when recruited by Epstein). Where were the girls' parents? What were they thinking? Were the girls really that innocent that they didn't know what the game was? Not making excuses for Epstein, just framing this in terms of how one ends up being abused and whether or not it is really a system totally at fault.
Do you really think your experience of reality is all there is... Perhaps there are other lives leading other choices no?
 
#47
I
Interesting answer.

Has there ever been a system that didn't leave some parties abused, either objectively or, at least, subjectively?

How would you dismantle the system?

Are you so sure you're right that you will go ahead with creative destruction? Is that not arrogant and what every new boss says when replacing the old one (like the Soviets replacing the Tzar).

Have you considered that the system, for all of its flaws, is providing a higher standard of living than any other in history? Are you willing to risk destroying all that good along with whatever bad is there?

Where does the "abuse" come from? What if the potential for evil lives inside all of us? How would you keep that from expressing in the new world order you wish to establish? Do you believe that you can eliminate evil?

I don't feel abused. I take of myself and those close to me. How does one become a victim? Are the victims Truely powerless good little people just going about their innocent lives when suddenly they are attacked mercilessly by "the system"? How does this happen? Why does some minority feel abused and most do not?

Consider Epstein's under age girls. Why on earth is a 15/16 year old attractive girl going to work as a massage therapist for older men (as one or two of the girls were doing when recruited by Epstein). Where were the girls' parents? What were they thinking? Were the girls really that innocent that they didn't know what the game was? Not making excuses for Epstein, just framing this in terms of how one ends up being abused and whether or not it is really a system totally at fault.
Thank you for engaging on that level. Your response will greatly help me better define my answer.
When I say "System" of Abuse I don't mean organization, more something like circumstances. It might better be explained with a word like "conduciveness" or "incentivization".

For example, if the Covid tyranny has emboldened a "system" of abuse, that "system" is NOT big pharma, or Fauci, or CDC... but rather It's the conditions in which those organizations are incentivized for bad acting.

Continuing with this example.. Therefore, if we are able to prove that Fauci/CDC/WHO/minions colluded with mass murder under the guise empowering a cause they truly-genuinely believed in, their punishment (or dismantling) is needs to be two fold:
1. Eliminate their ability to continue posing said threat (jail or capital punishment)
2. Demonstrate changes of rules/regulations that sufficiently disincentivize those endeavors for future generations (Enact something like Neuremburg Laws)
These same two responses would be necessary if you found bad people systematically doing any of the things i mentioned above (political correctness, child harm, extortion, suppression of bodily autonomy, predatory lending, etc.. ), and failing do implement both corrective actions sufficiently would guarantee regrowth and deeper roots.

Furthermore, the purpose of those punishments may not at all reflect their intentions. Again, they may fully believe they're doing the right thing for their cause, but because their cause so-infringes upon the human rights of others, they cannot pursue it without trespassing.... And if they refuse to relent, they have to be prevented by means of law enforcement, or (heaven forbid) uprising.

EDIT:
To add another example,
Say there's a 1000-mile river and many of the towns and cities along the length of it get drinking water and bath in it. When upstream towns dump sewage and waste into it, the down stream towns become abused.. That's a system of abuse for which the resolutions would be simple collaboration and agreement not to pollute the stream. There was probably never any grand plan by rich people to pollute the stream, however, by the time it came to resolutions there were probably many businesses made very rich by the money they saved by dumping into the river. Those companies might say something like "its always been this way." or "why dont the downstream people move up stream". or "the stream has alwasy been polluted down there, they're not supposed to live there".. etc.

In reality, each "system" probably starts with a single act of careless abuse which later developed into pattern abuse.
 
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#49
I

Thank you for engaging on that level. Your response will greatly help me better define my answer.
When I say "System" of Abuse I don't mean organization, more something like circumstances. It might better be explained with a word like "conduciveness" or "incentivization".

For example, if the Covid tyranny has emboldened a "system" of abuse, that "system" is NOT big pharma, or Fauci, or CDC... but rather It's the conditions in which those organizations are incentivized for bad acting.

Continuing with this example.. Therefore, if we are able to prove that Fauci/CDC/WHO/minions colluded with mass murder under the guise empowering a cause they truly-genuinely believed in, their punishment (or dismantling) is needs to be two fold:
1. Eliminate their ability to continue posing said threat (jail or capital punishment)
2. Demonstrate changes of rules/regulations that sufficiently disincentivize those endeavors for future generations (Enact something like Neuremburg Laws)
These same two responses would be necessary if you found bad people systematically doing any of the things i mentioned above (political correctness, child harm, extortion, suppression of bodily autonomy, predatory lending, etc.. ), and failing do implement both corrective actions sufficiently would guarantee regrowth and deeper roots.

Furthermore, the purpose of those punishments may not at all reflect their intentions. Again, they may fully believe they're doing the right thing for their cause, but because their cause so-infringes upon the human rights of others, they cannot pursue it without trespassing.... And if they refuse to relent, they have to be prevented by means of law enforcement, or (heaven forbid) uprising.

EDIT:
To add another example,
Say there's a 1000-mile river and many of the towns and cities along the length of it get drinking water and bath in it. When upstream towns dump sewage and waste into it, the down stream towns become abused.. That's a system of abuse for which the resolutions would be simple collaboration and agreement not to pollute the stream. There was probably never any grand plan by rich people to pollute the stream, however, by the time it came to resolutions there were probably many businesses made very rich by the money they saved by dumping into the river. Those companies might say something like "its always been this way." or "why dont the downstream people move up stream". or "the stream has alwasy been polluted down there, they're not supposed to live there".. etc.

In reality, each "system" probably starts with a single act of careless abuse which later developed into pattern abuse.
Even Jesus Christ said that the poor will always be amongst us.

I guess you and your CT buddies are wiser and more capable than Him. All hail the glorious CTist revolution.

Back in France a mere few hundred years ago, you could be put on a slave ship rowing until you died ;for independently gathering salt - yes salt - and circumventing the King's taxes. yet you think things are so bad now that you need to over-turn society.

Get some perspective. Things are better than ever and improving. That reality takes power away from CTists/revolutionaries/whiners.

We need to be serious and vigilant about freedom, not crazy.

You begin to sound like BLM, ANTIFA and other grievance "warriors" - all of whom are also CTists.

CT is a scam right there with Al Sharpton
 
#50
Even Jesus Christ said that the poor will always be amongst us.

I guess you and your CT buddies are wiser and more capable than Him. All hail the glorious CTist revolution.

Back in France a mere few hundred years ago, you could be put on a slave ship rowing until you died ;for independently gathering salt - yes salt - and circumventing the King's taxes. yet you think things are so bad now that you need to over-turn society.

Get some perspective. Things are better than ever and improving. That reality takes power away from CTists/revolutionaries/whiners.

We need to be serious and vigilant about freedom, not crazy.

You begin to sound like BLM, ANTIFA and other grievance "warriors" - all of whom are also CTists.

CT is a scam right there with Al Sharpton
There was probably never any grand plan by rich people to pollute the stream, however, by the time it came to resolutions there were probably many businesses made very rich by the money they saved by dumping into the river.
None of what stated above describes conspiracy.. but rather failed conditions which bad people took advantage of.. and when it becomes accelerated, or a pattern, it turns into a system of abuse.. So.. Maybe I'm not a CTist at all.
 
#51
None of what stated above describes conspiracy.. but rather failed conditions which bad people took advantage of.. and when it becomes accelerated, or a pattern, it turns into a system of abuse.. So.. Maybe I'm not a CTist at all.
But that is life. You can't make it go away. It's always been that way and always will. All you can do is make a stand and push the needle a little in the right direction - wich is what has been happening for the past 5 or 6 hundred years. Again, with all of the incremental improvements we are now quantum leaps better than we were circa 1400.

Human nature causes the same situations given the same environment. Human nature has not and will not change. What has changed is the systems, for the better, which causes better outcomes. Our better minds are slowly but surely triumphing. CTists want to destroy those systems because of nit picking and paranoia and a revolutionary/outsider/reject quest for power. By all means, prosecute wrong doing using the system. Making up wild accusations outside of the system, like Alex does, is misinformation and psy-ops of the nature of what he accuses "them"of doing. It's corrosive. You don't want to live in a world where the system has broken down, trust me. It looks like Mogadishu. You would be killed.

That said, the new(old) threat is fascist govt control. The enemy is crafty and seductive - let us further the improvement faster and better, it whispers. In reality, the improvement has come form less govt control and greater individual rights.

Alex and CTists will protest my description. Remember, yee shall know know them by the fruits of their actions. Destruction? What did a CTist ever build that materially benefitted others? Nothing.
 
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#52
I find it notable that the concept of 'conspiracy theorists' as being weak in the head seems to have arisen or intensified in the build-up to the overthrow of Trump and the plandemic.

I have always thought that conspiracies involving large numbers of people were unstable, but maybe the pandemic was an exception. Alternatively maybe there are hints that that conspiracy is falling apart now - I sure hope so!

David
 
#53
Alex and CTists will protest my description. Remember, yee shall know know them by the fruits of their actions. Destruction? What did a CTist ever build that materially benefitted others? Nothing.
Hang on - you have to distinguish between the conspirators and the conspiracy theorists! The conspirators have given us nothing - fair enough, but in a world where nobody could contemplate the possibility of a conspiracy, actual conspiracies would be extremely common.

David
 
#55
I

Thank you for engaging on that level. Your response will greatly help me better define my answer.
When I say "System" of Abuse I don't mean organization, more something like circumstances. It might better be explained with a word like "conduciveness" or "incentivization".

For example, if the Covid tyranny has emboldened a "system" of abuse, that "system" is NOT big pharma, or Fauci, or CDC... but rather It's the conditions in which those organizations are incentivized for bad acting.

Continuing with this example.. Therefore, if we are able to prove that Fauci/CDC/WHO/minions colluded with mass murder under the guise empowering a cause they truly-genuinely believed in, their punishment (or dismantling) is needs to be two fold:
1. Eliminate their ability to continue posing said threat (jail or capital punishment)
2. Demonstrate changes of rules/regulations that sufficiently disincentivize those endeavors for future generations (Enact something like Neuremburg Laws)
These same two responses would be necessary if you found bad people systematically doing any of the things i mentioned above (political correctness, child harm, extortion, suppression of bodily autonomy, predatory lending, etc.. ), and failing do implement both corrective actions sufficiently would guarantee regrowth and deeper roots.

Furthermore, the purpose of those punishments may not at all reflect their intentions. Again, they may fully believe they're doing the right thing for their cause, but because their cause so-infringes upon the human rights of others, they cannot pursue it without trespassing.... And if they refuse to relent, they have to be prevented by means of law enforcement, or (heaven forbid) uprising.

EDIT:
To add another example,
Say there's a 1000-mile river and many of the towns and cities along the length of it get drinking water and bath in it. When upstream towns dump sewage and waste into it, the down stream towns become abused.. That's a system of abuse for which the resolutions would be simple collaboration and agreement not to pollute the stream. There was probably never any grand plan by rich people to pollute the stream, however, by the time it came to resolutions there were probably many businesses made very rich by the money they saved by dumping into the river. Those companies might say something like "its always been this way." or "why dont the downstream people move up stream". or "the stream has alwasy been polluted down there, they're not supposed to live there".. etc.

In reality, each "system" probably starts with a single act of careless abuse which later developed into pattern abuse.
This only works if you are able to accurately identify what/who is the source of a problem, and offer reasonable solutions/changes. The problem with CTers is that they are horrible at identifying where the real problems lie. And their solutions are to go on witch hunts, vilifying targets chosen by ignorance and bigotry. In the meantime, legitimate problems and solutions are ignored or made worse. Nobody denies that there are legitimate conspiracies and systematic problems. But none of that has anything to do with what you guys go on about.

It's as though your solution is to vilify the scientists who point out that the incidence of illness and death from water-borne pathogens has increased downstream from the sewage plant. And the proposed solution to treat the sewage in way that kills those pathogens before dumping it in the river is just a NWO plan to a) put money in the pockets of the giant Sewage Treatment Cartel and b) as a cover for a plan to add mind-control drugs to the river water. Burn the witch!
 
#56
Hang on - you have to distinguish between the conspirators and the conspiracy theorists! The conspirators have given us nothing - fair enough, but in a world where nobody could contemplate the possibility of a conspiracy, actual conspiracies would be extremely common.

David
David,
I would say that, like all things in life, a balance must be struck. I know that psi, an after life and all of that are real. I know that there are conspiracies of a very evil nature that impact many, if not all, of us (Iraq WMD/illegal invasion based on lies, the Russia collusion info-op, probably covid, to name few).

If you want psi, etc and the real conspiracies to be taken seriously, you can't go around peddling the kooky stuff too because you discredit yourself and make it too easy to dismiss to the real stuff as just more kookiness.

Nor can you smear the entire system (e.g. "They're all pedos") as corrupt and call for its dismantling. That system works very well for the vast majority. People are going to be even more ready to summarily dismiss you and your valid positions along with the invalid ones when you want to wipe out the system they rely on - especially when you don't have a viable alternative.

As an aside, black lives matter is a CTists group as bad as Q-Anon with it's paranoid and false notions of a police genocide against blacks, accusations of systemic racism, it's own overt racism against whites, socialist ideology, etc. Notice how it went from peak popularity right after George Floyd to pretty much a silent fringe today. Partly that's because the democrats fund them and want them to stop the destruction and chaos now that Biden is elected and largely because they went too far into kooky-land and people have caught on. Also salient is that all sides have their CTs. Those caught up in the CT seem to never be able to see where they are. The CT somehow becomes reality for them. Like I said, all human understanding is nothing more than a story- a myth - that creates our realities in a feedback loop fashion.
 
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#57
"I would say that, like all things in life, a balance must be struck. I know that psi, an after life and all of that are real. I know that there are conspiracies of a very evil nature that impact many, if not all, of us (Iraq WMD/illegal invasion based on lies, the Russia collusion info-op, probably covid, to name few). "

I agree, but it is often hard for people to get their ideas explored because of the chorus of claims that they are just conspiracy theories. People trying to expose the truth in every one of your examples have been subjected to that.

I would add Epstein's island to that list. Who would have believed that people in high places were visiting an island devoted to paedophilia?

David
 
#60
"I would say that, like all things in life, a balance must be struck. I know that psi, an after life and all of that are real. I know that there are conspiracies of a very evil nature that impact many, if not all, of us (Iraq WMD/illegal invasion based on lies, the Russia collusion info-op, probably covid, to name few). "

I agree, but it is often hard for people to get their ideas explored because of the chorus of claims that they are just conspiracy theories. People trying to expose the truth in every one of your examples have been subjected to that.
I don't think anyone's ideas are failing to be explored. I do think the consequences of the exploration, when the ideas prove valid, are mitigated because the offenders are in power and aren't going to arrest themselves. The kooky invalid CTs give these offenders cover in the public eye. That is a problem. The public could vote the offenders - or their elected masters- out of office and probably would if the offenders weren't able to hide behind the kooky CT smoke screen. That is why I object so strenuously to all these sketchy CTs and "where there's smoke there's fire/you just gotta believe" mentality. If you don't have evidence that would hold up in court - or at least a grand jury - then knock it off. You're not helping. Quite the opposite.


would add Epstein's island to that list. Who would have believed that people in high places were visiting an island devoted to paedophilia?
No surprise for me. IMO, the island was not "dedicated" to pedophilia. I think it was dedicated to all kinds of pleasures that helped create an atmosphere where elites could relax and deals could be made. IMO, deal making was the reason d'être. The girls were just one of many types of party favors. I do note that the girls were not kidnapped children being involuntarily abused. These girls, 16 years old going on 30, wanted to be there. That doesn't make it ok. Personally I think it is sick and wrong. However, it is not quite as scandalous and awful as real pedophilic rings. In many countries it wouldn't be illegal at all and some of the clients were from those countries.
 
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