The brain is not dead when the cortex is dead.

[Max_B]

No, it doesn't demonstrate that conclusively, at all. You are simply interpreting one irrelevant anomaly in a rat brain, in support of your completely unsupported (by any evidence) theory.

You've been given until 2020 (you will know what I mean) to carry on selling us this nonsense, Max. Shame, what a waste of your time and abilities.

Well it's obviously not irrelevant, or anomalous, as it reproduces the results of a previous study showing the resilience of neurons from another deep structure (supraoptic nucleus) to oxygen and glucose deprivation, in contrast to cortex neurons.

I realise you'll dislike this stuff..., because you wished to go on believing that there is a global loss of all electrical activity in the brain within 20 seconds of cardiac arrest. But I'm afraid that there is now good evidence showing some continued functioning of deep neuronal structures during circulatory arrest for a longer period of time... upto 5 minutes.

 

[tim]

Well it's obviously not irrelevant, or anomalous, as it reproduces the results of a previous study showing the resilience of neurons from another deep structure (supraoptic nucleus) to oxygen and glucose deprivation, in contrast to cortex neurons.

I realise you'll dislike this stuff..., because you wished to go on believing that there is a global loss of all electrical activity in the brain within 20 seconds of cardiac arrest. But I'm afraid that there is now good evidence showing some continued functioning of deep neuronal structures during circulatory arrest for a longer period of time... upto 5 minutes.

As I said, one vague report from an experiment on one rodent makes no difference to the literature. It would have to be repeated by the authors many times and then replicated by others to even have a chance of being regarded as good evidence (as you not surprisingly want to label it) And good evidence for what ? Some neurons doing something (exactly what ?) deep in an animal's brain. Do rats have near death experiences ? Will there ever be a way to communicate with a rat to ask ?

 

[Max_B]

...And good evidence for what ?

Good evidence against your claim that the brain's electrical activity globally ceases within 15-20 seconds of cardiac arrest of course. :D

But most people knew that anyway, as it was wrong to make your claim based on scalp EEG measurements, because scalp EEG can't measure deeper areas of the brain, like those investigated in this study.

 

[tim]

Good evidence against your claim that the brain's electrical activity globally ceases within 15-20 seconds of cardiac arrest of course. :D

No it isn't, Max. Doesn't matter how many times a lie is repeated, it doesn't make it true. We can easily settle this. Is the medical profession adjusting their interpretation of how the brain works based on you sticking that up ? Are the textbooks now being re-written to accommodate your new clinical findings on how the brain works ? :)

But most people knew that anyway

Most people ? Which people ? Do you mean the general population or Malf ?

as it was wrong to make your claim based on scalp EEG measurements,

Do you regard your opinion as being more likely to be correct than the opinion of Dr Ernst Rodin, one of the greats of neurology ?

 

[Typoz]

Most people ? Which people ? Do you mean the general population or Malf ?

For some reason this made me laugh ;)

 

[Max_B]

Doesn't matter how many times a lie is repeated, it doesn't make it true

Are you suggesting Brisson, Lukewich & Andrew falsified their research?

Do you regard your opinion as being more likely to be correct than the opinion of Dr Ernst Rodin, one of the greats of neurology ?

Has Dr Rodin provided an opinion about Brisson, Lukewich & Andrew's paper?

 

[tim]

Are you suggesting Brisson, Lukewich & Andrew falsified their research?

What I'm saying is that you (or they) are not entitled to draw any conclusions about how the human brain works by referring to one tiny anomalous finding in the brain of a rodent.

Has Dr Rodin provided an opinion about Brisson, Lukewich & Andrew's paper?

I posted Dr Rodin's obituary above so no, obviously. I quoted Rodin because he was a world renowned expert on the use of EEG monitoring to determine the absence or viability of brain function.

 

[Max_B]

What I'm saying is that you (or they) are not entitled to draw any conclusions about how the human brain works by referring to one tiny anomalous finding in the brain of a rodent.

There is no reason to call the results in the paper anomalous. They ain't deviating from what we would expect, because of related research from other animal studies quoted in the paper, and also - as the author makes clear - from related observations in humans which seem to agree with their findings. But I do get that this is a rodent study, and does not use the cells from a human brain.

But that doesn't mean you can claim that globally, electrical activity in the brain stops 20 secs into cardiac arrest. Why? because scalp EEG can't measure activity deeper within the brain, it just measures activity within the cortex.

 

[tim]

There is no reason to call the results in the paper anomalous.

One tiny effect in one rodent, Max

But that doesn't mean you can claim that globally, electrical activity in the brain stops 20 secs into cardiac arrest

I'm not claiming anything, I'm not an expert but Dr Peter Fenwick, Dr Van Lommel and Dr Sam Parnia are entitled to state this fact because it has been demonstrated and is demonstrable through simple logical tests on the reflexes of the brain after cardiac arrest.

Leaving aside the EEG (not because it isn't reliable), after the heart stops, the brain stem goes down more or less immediately. The brain stem is at the base of the brain, deeper than the part you are so fond of referring to and it's the part that everything that is necessary for life, passes through. How can they know this ? Patients lose the gag reflex, they can be intubated without resistance. Their eyes don't react to light, you can squirt cold water in their ears and they don't flinch. So in cardiac arrest, it doesn't matter that there is no EEG recording on the scalp, the whole caboodle goes down within 10-20 seconds.

 

[Max_B]

I'm not claiming anything, I'm not an expert but Dr Peter Fenwick, Dr Van Lommel and Dr Sam Parnia are entitled to state this fact because it has been demonstrated and is demonstrable through simple logical tests on the reflexes of the brain after cardiac arrest.

I would be extremely surprised to find that Fenwick, Van Lommel, or Parnia state that globally, all electrical activity in the brain ceases after 20 sec's of Cardiac arrest, because that is incorrect.

I think what you'll find they are saying is that 'scalp EEG measurements' show that electrical activity in the brain ceases within 20 sec's of cardiac arrest. And on the basis that Scalp EEG is measuring electrical activity in the cortex, and that electrical activity in the cortex is generally accepted as a requirement for consciousness, something odd is going on.

 

[tim]

I would be extremely surprised to find that Fenwick, Van Lommel, or Parnia state that globally, all electrical activity in the brain ceases after 20 sec's of Cardiac arrest, because that is incorrect.

Max. I can't believe I have to start posting this stuff again.

I think what you'll find they are saying is that 'scalp EEG measurements' show that electrical activity in the brain ceases within 20 sec's of cardiac arrest.

Sorry but no. No brainstem, no nothing.

Dr Peter Fenwick, one of the world's leading NDE researchers summarizing 30 years of research - a fundamental overview of scientific findings.

Attempts to Understand Cardiac Arrest NDEs
So, now we come to the really important question: what happens when an NDE occurs during a cardiac arrest, and why is this important?

The first point is that signs of cardiac arrest are the same as clinical death. There is no detectable cardiac output, no respiratory effort, and brainstem reflexes are absent. If you are in this state and I put a tube down your throat, you will not cough. You will have dilated pupils. Your blood pressure has fallen to zero. You are, in fact, clinically dead. Even if I start cardiopulmonary resuscitation (CPR), I cannot get your blood pressure any higher than 30 millimeters of mercury, and this is not going to produce an adequate blood flow to your brain.

A number of studies show that the longer CPR is continued, the more brain damage occurs. So it is not an ideal intervention. We know that after a cardiac arrest, both NDErs and non NDErs suffer brain damage, but we do not know whether the amount of brain damage in the two groups is the same or different. During CPR, you are not going to be able to perfuse – that is, force an adequate amount of blood through – the brain. When the heart does finally start, the blood pressure rises, and there is a slow resumption of circulation and lots of technical reasons why your brain function does not return instantly. And the point to remember is that your mental state during recovery is confusional.

What should be clear to you now is that it is not a good thing to have a heart attack. In their 1999 studyof cardiac arrest and brain damage, Graham Nichol and his colleagues found that out of 1,748 cardiac arrests patients, only 126 survived (Nichol, Stiell, Hebert, Wells, Vandemheen, and Laupacis, 1999). Most units range between 2 and 20 percent resuscitation rates. Eighty-six of Nichol’s survivors were interviewed, and most of the people who were resuscitated had evidence of brain damage.

Simultaneous recording of heart rate and brain output show that within 11 seconds of the heart stopping, the brainwaves go flat. Now, if you read the literature on this, some skeptics claim that in this state there is still brain activity, but, in fact, the data are against this in both animals and humans. The brain is not functioning, and you are not going to get your electrical activity back again until the heart restarts.

The flat electroencephalogram (EEG), indicating no brain activity during cardiac arrest, and the high incidence of brain damage afterwards both point to the conclusion that the unconsciousness in cardiac arrest is total. You cannot argue that there are ‘‘bits’’ of the brain that are functioning; there are not. There is a confusional onset and offset, and there is no brain-based memory functioning. Everything that constructs our world for us is, in fact, ‘‘down.’’ There is no possibility of the brain creating any images. Memory is not functioning during this time, so it should be impossible to have clearly structured and lucid experiences, and because of brain damage, memory should be significantly impaired, and you should not be able to remember any experiences which occurred during that time. Now, that raises interesting and difficult questions for us, because the NDErs say that their experiences occur during unconsciousness, and science maintains that this is not possible.

Figure 1
Changes in consciousness during cardiac arrest.

Figure 1 is an illustration I have drawn that I hope is helpful. The height of the line above the x axis shows the intensity of consciousness, and the squiggly line represents the level of consciousness. When the heart stops, the line starts to dip, and consciousness is lost. So you are going along conscious, your heart stops, and there is a very quick descent into unconsciousness. Those of you who have ever fainted will agree that when you faint you lose consciousness very quickly. So you lose consciousness, then you are unconscious, and then the heart restarts, so science says the NDE cannot occur while you are unconsciousness; that is the pink area in the diagram. Now, as you slowly regain consciousness, the slow recovery is all confusional, so the NDE cannot occur there.

So then, as far as science is concerned, the NDE cannot occur at the point the heart stops, it cannot occur at any point during the period of unconsciousness, and it is unlikely to occur at the point of confusional arousal, because it is not typical of that level of consciousness; and if it occurred after recovery, the NDErs would say it occurred after recovery, because they know they have recovered. So there are real difficulties in accepting that the NDE happens when the NDErs say it happens: during unconsciousness.
................................................................

I'll stick up the other two experts statements tomorrow, Max.

 

[Max_B]

Max. I can't believe I have to start posting this stuff again.


Sorry but no. No brainstem, no nothing.

Dr Peter Fenwick, one of the world's leading NDE researchers summarizing 30 years of research - a fundamental overview of scientific findings.

Attempts to Understand Cardiac Arrest NDEs
So, now we come to the really important question: what happens when an NDE occurs during a cardiac arrest, and why is this important?

The first point is that signs of cardiac arrest are the same as clinical death. There is no detectable cardiac output, no respiratory effort, and brainstem reflexes are absent. If you are in this state and I put a tube down your throat, you will not cough. You will have dilated pupils. Your blood pressure has fallen to zero. You are, in fact, clinically dead. Even if I start cardiopulmonary resuscitation (CPR), I cannot get your blood pressure any higher than 30 millimeters of mercury, and this is not going to produce an adequate blood flow to your brain.

A number of studies show that the longer CPR is continued, the more brain damage occurs. So it is not an ideal intervention. We know that after a cardiac arrest, both NDErs and non NDErs suffer brain damage, but we do not know whether the amount of brain damage in the two groups is the same or different. During CPR, you are not going to be able to perfuse – that is, force an adequate amount of blood through – the brain. When the heart does finally start, the blood pressure rises, and there is a slow resumption of circulation and lots of technical reasons why your brain function does not return instantly. And the point to remember is that your mental state during recovery is confusional.

What should be clear to you now is that it is not a good thing to have a heart attack. In their 1999 studyof cardiac arrest and brain damage, Graham Nichol and his colleagues found that out of 1,748 cardiac arrests patients, only 126 survived (Nichol, Stiell, Hebert, Wells, Vandemheen, and Laupacis, 1999). Most units range between 2 and 20 percent resuscitation rates. Eighty-six of Nichol’s survivors were interviewed, and most of the people who were resuscitated had evidence of brain damage.

Simultaneous recording of heart rate and brain output show that within 11 seconds of the heart stopping, the brainwaves go flat. Now, if you read the literature on this, some skeptics claim that in this state there is still brain activity, but, in fact, the data are against this in both animals and humans. The brain is not functioning, and you are not going to get your electrical activity back again until the heart restarts.

The flat electroencephalogram (EEG), indicating no brain activity during cardiac arrest, and the high incidence of brain damage afterwards both point to the conclusion that the unconsciousness in cardiac arrest is total. You cannot argue that there are ‘‘bits’’ of the brain that are functioning; there are not. There is a confusional onset and offset, and there is no brain-based memory functioning. Everything that constructs our world for us is, in fact, ‘‘down.’’ There is no possibility of the brain creating any images. Memory is not functioning during this time, so it should be impossible to have clearly structured and lucid experiences, and because of brain damage, memory should be significantly impaired, and you should not be able to remember any experiences which occurred during that time. Now, that raises interesting and difficult questions for us, because the NDErs say that their experiences occur during unconsciousness, and science maintains that this is not possible.

Figure 1
Changes in consciousness during cardiac arrest.

Figure 1 is an illustration I have drawn that I hope is helpful. The height of the line above the x axis shows the intensity of consciousness, and the squiggly line represents the level of consciousness. When the heart stops, the line starts to dip, and consciousness is lost. So you are going along conscious, your heart stops, and there is a very quick descent into unconsciousness. Those of you who have ever fainted will agree that when you faint you lose consciousness very quickly. So you lose consciousness, then you are unconscious, and then the heart restarts, so science says the NDE cannot occur while you are unconsciousness; that is the pink area in the diagram. Now, as you slowly regain consciousness, the slow recovery is all confusional, so the NDE cannot occur there.

So then, as far as science is concerned, the NDE cannot occur at the point the heart stops, it cannot occur at any point during the period of unconsciousness, and it is unlikely to occur at the point of confusional arousal, because it is not typical of that level of consciousness; and if it occurred after recovery, the NDErs would say it occurred after recovery, because they know they have recovered. So there are real difficulties in accepting that the NDE happens when the NDErs say it happens: during unconsciousness.
................................................................

I'll stick up the other two experts statements tomorrow, Max.

Yeah, I thought so. Comments are made in reference to measurements of electrical activity via scalp EEG. So you can't know anything about electrical activity in deeper structures after 20 seconds.... just the cortex, as that's all that EEG measures.

 

[malf]

Can Tim's corner man at least reach for the towel. This is getting painful to watch.

 

[tim]

I would be extremely surprised to find that Fenwick, Van Lommel, or Parnia state that globally, all electrical activity in the brain ceases after 20 sec's of Cardiac arrest, because that is incorrect.

Dr Peter Fenwick

The flat electroencephalogram (EEG), indicating no brain activity during cardiac arrest, and the high incidence of brain damage afterwards both point to the conclusion that the unconsciousness in cardiac arrest is total. You cannot argue that there are ‘‘bits’’ of the brain that are functioning; there are not.

Dr Pim Van Lommel http://www.skepticalinvestigations.org/Mediaskeptics/vanLommel.html

In VF complete cardiac arrest occurs, with complete cessation of cerebral flow, and resulting in acute pancerebral anoxia. The Vmca, the middle cerebral artery blood flow, which is a reliable trend monitor of the cerebral blood flow, decreases to 0 cm/sec immediately after the induction of VF (2). Through many studies in human, as well as in animal models, cerebral function has been shown to be severely compromised during cardiac arrest and electric activity in both cerebral cortex and the deeper structures of the brain has been shown to be absent after a very short period of time. Monitoring of the electric activity of the cortex (EEG) has shown ischaemic changes consisting of a decrease of fast high amplitude waves and an increase of slow delta waves, and sometimes also an increase in amplitude of theta activity, progressively and ultimately declining to isoelectricity. More often initial slowing (attenuation) of the EEG waves is the first sign of cerebral ischaemia. The first ischaemic changes in the EEG are detected an average of 6.5 seconds after circulatory arrest. With prolongation of the cerebral ischaemia always a progress to an isoelectric (flat) line is monitored within 10 to 20 (mean 15) seconds from the onset of the cardiac arrest (3-6).

Dr Sam Parnia (http://www.horizonresearch.org/near-death/books-related-to-ndes/erasing-death-by-sam-parnia-part-i/)

For instance, in the case of cardiac arrest, it is well known that the immediate cessation of blood flow that follows the heart stopping leads to the instant cessation of respiration and brain stem activity as well as whole brain function,


Is that clear enough for you, Max ?

 

[tim]

Can Tim's corner man at least reach for the towel. This is getting painful to watch.

Definition of in English:
malf
A technical malfunction.
Origin
1980s. Shortened from malfunction.

If that's how you sincerely interpret this thread, may I suggest you alter your name to something more appropriate ? Hint > (add) unction

 

[Max_B]

Dr Peter Fenwick

The flat electroencephalogram (EEG), indicating no brain activity during cardiac arrest, and the high incidence of brain damage afterwards both point to the conclusion that the unconsciousness in cardiac arrest is total. You cannot argue that there are ‘‘bits’’ of the brain that are functioning; there are not.

Dr Pim Van Lommel http://www.skepticalinvestigations.org/Mediaskeptics/vanLommel.html

In VF complete cardiac arrest occurs, with complete cessation of cerebral flow, and resulting in acute pancerebral anoxia. The Vmca, the middle cerebral artery blood flow, which is a reliable trend monitor of the cerebral blood flow, decreases to 0 cm/sec immediately after the induction of VF (2). Through many studies in human, as well as in animal models, cerebral function has been shown to be severely compromised during cardiac arrest and electric activity in both cerebral cortex and the deeper structures of the brain has been shown to be absent after a very short period of time. Monitoring of the electric activity of the cortex (EEG) has shown ischaemic changes consisting of a decrease of fast high amplitude waves and an increase of slow delta waves, and sometimes also an increase in amplitude of theta activity, progressively and ultimately declining to isoelectricity. More often initial slowing (attenuation) of the EEG waves is the first sign of cerebral ischaemia. The first ischaemic changes in the EEG are detected an average of 6.5 seconds after circulatory arrest. With prolongation of the cerebral ischaemia always a progress to an isoelectric (flat) line is monitored within 10 to 20 (mean 15) seconds from the onset of the cardiac arrest (3-6).

Dr Sam Parnia (http://www.horizonresearch.org/near-death/books-related-to-ndes/erasing-death-by-sam-parnia-part-i/)

For instance, in the case of cardiac arrest, it is well known that the immediate cessation of blood flow that follows the heart stopping leads to the instant cessation of respiration and brain stem activity as well as whole brain function,


Is that clear enough for you, Max ?

Yeah, the comments you've quoted are based on measuring scalp EEG again, and scalp EEG can't measure deeper structures. I guess Parnia's reference to instant cessation of 'whole brain function' cannot be equivalent to all global electrical activity in the brain ceasing instantly, because we know it doesn't.

This paper (above), confirms earlier studies which shows continued electrical activity for upto 5 minutes in neurons from deeper structures of the brain. By all means list studies that dispute that. But it's no good relying on scalp EEG measurements to dispute this paper, because scalp EEG doesn't measure deeper structures.

 

[tim]

Yeah, the comments you've quoted are based on measuring scalp EEG again, and scalp EEG can't measure deeper structures. I guess Parnia's reference to instant cessation of 'whole brain function' cannot be equivalent to all global electrical activity in the brain ceasing instantly, because we know it doesn't.

This paper (above), confirms earlier studies which shows continued electrical activity for upto 5 minutes in neurons from deeper structures of the brain. By all means list studies that dispute that. But it's no good relying on scalp EEG measurements to dispute this paper, because scalp EEG doesn't measure deeper structures.

All you're doing is being deliberately evasive, Max. You said >

I would be extremely surprised to find that Fenwick, Van Lommel, or Parnia state that globally, all electrical activity in the brain ceases after 20 sec's of Cardiac arrest, because that is incorrect.

And I've posted the confirmation above that they did indeed say that. Here it is again.

1. The flat electroencephalogram (EEG), indicating no brain activity during cardiac arrest, and the high incidence of brain damage afterwards both point to the conclusion that the unconsciousness in cardiac arrest is total. You cannot argue that there are ‘‘bits’’ of the brain that are functioning; there are not.

2. Through many studies in human, as well as in animal models, cerebral function has been shown to be severely compromised during cardiac arrest and electric activity in both cerebral cortex and the deeper structures of the brain has been shown to be absent after a very short period of time

3.For instance, in the case of cardiac arrest, it is well known that the immediate cessation of blood flow that follows the heart stopping leads to the instant cessation of respiration and brain stem activity as well as whole brain function,

As I said, one tiny effect in one miniscule area of one rodent's brain is completely irrelevant, Max.

 

[Max_B]

All you're doing is being deliberately evasive, Max. You said >

I would be extremely surprised to find that Fenwick, Van Lommel, or Parnia state that globally, all electrical activity in the brain ceases after 20 sec's of Cardiac arrest, because that is incorrect.

And I've posted the confirmation above that they did indeed say that. Here it is again.

1. The flat electroencephalogram (EEG), indicating no brain activity during cardiac arrest, and the high incidence of brain damage afterwards both point to the conclusion that the unconsciousness in cardiac arrest is total. You cannot argue that there are ‘‘bits’’ of the brain that are functioning; there are not.

2. Through many studies in human, as well as in animal models, cerebral function has been shown to be severely compromised during cardiac arrest and electric activity in both cerebral cortex and the deeper structures of the brain has been shown to be absent after a very short period of time

3.For instance, in the case of cardiac arrest, it is well known that the immediate cessation of blood flow that follows the heart stopping leads to the instant cessation of respiration and brain stem activity as well as whole brain function,

As I said, one tiny effect in one miniscule area of one rodent's brain is completely irrelevant, Max.

As I keep repeating, and you keep ignoring, scalp EEG only measures electrical activity in the cortex. In all these quotes, they are referring to some type of measurable and organised electrical activity that can be measured by scalp EEG, and that we would expect to measure during consciousness.

But I'm afraid it's not that simple Tim, as I'm reading older studies through the 1940's-80's it's becoming clear that they already knew things were not as simple, or as black and white, as you would like make out... and I might add the authors of your quotes fail to mention with regards to electrical activity in general... like these fascinating quotes I've clipped from two papers...

 

[tim]

In all these quotes, they are referring to some type of measurable and organised electrical activity that can be measured by scalp EEG

No they are not. Although EEG is mentioned, they know by previous studies and also by loss of brain reflexes (eyes ears throat) that in cardiac arrest, the whole of the brain goes down including the deep structures. The brain stem is the deepest of them all and if that's down, everything is down.

 

[Max_B]

No they are not. Although EEG is mentioned, they know by previous studies and also by loss of brain reflexes (eyes ears throat) that in cardiac arrest, the whole of the brain goes down including the deep structures. The brain stem is the deepest of them all and if that's down, everything is down.

That's not written in stone either. Grigg (1987) reviewed patients at a hospital and identified a considerable number whose brainstem was totally destroyed, absolutely brain dead by all medical criteria, (hopeless cases) but scalp EEG recordings were still measuring electrical brain activity, some patients displayed sleep like brain wave patterns, yet their brainstem was just a mess of necrotic tissue. So trying to claim that if the brainstem is down, there can be no other electrical activity in the brain, as if it were some golden rule, just isn't correct.

https://thinkingdeeper.files.wordpress.com/2017/03/brain_death_1987.pdf