The Sheldrake Wikipedia Biography Discussion

I'm unaware of any parapsychologists at large confirming anything you written. I still don't see how what you believe logically begets the latter to the total elimination of the former. I can just as easily believe based upon all the evidence presented by neuroscience and parapsychology that the brain creates consciousness [mind], that the mind continues after death, that the brain can somehow do all the things you say so. Your position is equivalent to the classical world does not exist because quantum physics negates it which clearly is a false premiss.

Because to come to the conclusion you have... you have cherry picked your evidence to come to a certain conclusion you are comfortable with. No sweat though... Scientists have been doing it for years.

Nobody here who has had studied all the facts and data relating to Mediumship for example and had personal experience with it could ever come to the conclusion that "logically" Mind=brain and psi. It just simply is not possible and I will explain why.

I myself for example sat in a Mediumship circle doing Phsyical Mediumship where myself and 4 others did glass moving. We place the very tips of our fingers on the glass and it would move in response to questions we asked with virtually no pressure exerted on the glass. Now where it gets interesting is as I am a Mental Medium I am also receiving information at the same time this is happening in my head. The "spirit/energy" whatever you want to call them... is communicating to me mentally, whilst it is communicating to everyone else around the table Physically via the glass... so I knew the answers before the glass moved. Big circles for yes... small circles for no... move directly to the person the message is for etc. So I knew the glass was moving correctly and I certainly was not influencing it whatsoever.

Now during this sessions whilst questions were being asked to the spirit like "Who the message was for?" (It moved directly to 1 person at the table) Are you Male? Did you live in Australia? Did you live Overseas? Did you pass away in the last 20 years? etc etc) I was getting more detailed information via the mental mediumship so I started asking more direct questions... but because I am an absolute skeptical prick when it comes to this stuff I specifically asked questions I KNEW were wrong... in the hope the response would be a NO... and every single time it was spot on.

I then asked questions that were very specific. "Is your name Frederick?" (Yes). Are you related to Mike (person at the table)? (No) (I knew this was not the case). Are you a family friend of his parents? (Yes) Are you from England? (Yes) Did you know MIke? (No), Did you ever come to Australia? (No) Did you work as a doctor (No) (Again I asked this knowing it was not right) Did you work as a Carpenter? (Yes). Did you pass away from a heart attack? (Yes). All very specific information that was being answered by a glass moving on the table.

Here is where it gets freaky. Mike at the table... did not have the first clue who this person was... so we noted it all down afterwards and he spoke to his parents. Guess what... they had a family friend called Frederick who was long time friends of his parents who worked as a carpenter and had lived in England his entire life and passed away from a heart attack.

So how does Mind = Brain and PSI explain that? When the person receiving the message wasn't even aware of the information (So can't have been PSI or even Super-PSI).

At the end of the day personal experience counts... I'm one of the most skeptical people around when it comes to this stuff... but if I have proven to myself it exists... why should I care what "neuroscience and parapsychology" tells me is possible.
 
Because to come to the conclusion you have... you have cherry picked your evidence to come to a certain conclusion you are comfortable with. No sweat though... Scientists have been doing it for years.

Nobody here who has had studied all the facts and data relating to Mediumship for example and had personal experience with it could ever come to the conclusion that "logically" Mind=brain and psi. It just simply is not possible and I will explain why.

I myself for example sat in a Mediumship circle doing Phsyical Mediumship where myself and 4 others did glass moving. We place the very tips of our fingers on the glass and it would move in response to questions we asked with virtually no pressure exerted on the glass. Now where it gets interesting is as I am a Mental Medium I am also receiving information at the same time this is happening in my head. The "spirit/energy" whatever you want to call them... is communicating to me mentally, whilst it is communicating to everyone else around the table Physically via the glass... so I knew the answers before the glass moved. Big circles for yes... small circles for no... move directly to the person the message is for etc. So I knew the glass was moving correctly and I certainly was not influencing it whatsoever.

Now during this sessions whilst questions were being asked to the spirit like "Who the message was for?" (It moved directly to 1 person at the table) Are you Male? Did you live in Australia? Did you live Overseas? Did you pass away in the last 20 years? etc etc) I was getting more detailed information via the mental mediumship so I started asking more direct questions... but because I am an absolute skeptical prick when it comes to this stuff I specifically asked questions I KNEW were wrong... in the hope the response would be a NO... and every single time it was spot on.

I then asked questions that were very specific. "Is your name Frederick?" (Yes). Are you related to Mike (person at the table)? (No) (I knew this was not the case). Are you a family friend of his parents? (Yes) Are you from England? (Yes) Did you know MIke? (No), Did you ever come to Australia? (No) Did you work as a doctor (No) (Again I asked this knowing it was not right) Did you work as a Carpenter? (Yes). Did you pass away from a heart attack? (Yes). All very specific information that was being answered by a glass moving on the table.

Here is where it gets freaky. Mike at the table... did not have the first clue who this person was... so we noted it all down afterwards and he spoke to his parents. Guess what... they had a family friend called Frederick who was long time friends of his parents who worked as a carpenter and had lived in England his entire life and passed away from a heart attack.

So how does Mind = Brain and PSI explain that? When the person receiving the message wasn't even aware of the information (So can't have been PSI or even Super-PSI).

At the end of the day personal experience counts... I'm one of the most skeptical people around when it comes to this stuff... but if I have proven to myself it exists... why should I care what "neuroscience and parapsychology" tells me is possible.
Thank you for your reply.
 
Because to come to the conclusion you have... you have cherry picked your evidence to come to a certain conclusion you are comfortable with. No sweat though... Scientists have been doing it for years.

Nobody here who has had studied all the facts and data relating to Mediumship for example and had personal experience with it could ever come to the conclusion that "logically" Mind=brain and psi. It just simply is not possible and I will explain why.

I myself for example sat in a Mediumship circle doing Phsyical Mediumship where myself and 4 others did glass moving. We place the very tips of our fingers on the glass and it would move in response to questions we asked with virtually no pressure exerted on the glass. Now where it gets interesting is as I am a Mental Medium I am also receiving information at the same time this is happening in my head. The "spirit/energy" whatever you want to call them... is communicating to me mentally, whilst it is communicating to everyone else around the table Physically via the glass... so I knew the answers before the glass moved. Big circles for yes... small circles for no... move directly to the person the message is for etc. So I knew the glass was moving correctly and I certainly was not influencing it whatsoever.

Now during this sessions whilst questions were being asked to the spirit like "Who the message was for?" (It moved directly to 1 person at the table) Are you Male? Did you live in Australia? Did you live Overseas? Did you pass away in the last 20 years? etc etc) I was getting more detailed information via the mental mediumship so I started asking more direct questions... but because I am an absolute skeptical prick when it comes to this stuff I specifically asked questions I KNEW were wrong... in the hope the response would be a NO... and every single time it was spot on.

I then asked questions that were very specific. "Is your name Frederick?" (Yes). Are you related to Mike (person at the table)? (No) (I knew this was not the case). Are you a family friend of his parents? (Yes) Are you from England? (Yes) Did you know MIke? (No), Did you ever come to Australia? (No) Did you work as a doctor (No) (Again I asked this knowing it was not right) Did you work as a Carpenter? (Yes). Did you pass away from a heart attack? (Yes). All very specific information that was being answered by a glass moving on the table.

Here is where it gets freaky. Mike at the table... did not have the first clue who this person was... so we noted it all down afterwards and he spoke to his parents. Guess what... they had a family friend called Frederick who was long time friends of his parents who worked as a carpenter and had lived in England his entire life and passed away from a heart attack.

So how does Mind = Brain and PSI explain that? When the person receiving the message wasn't even aware of the information (So can't have been PSI or even Super-PSI).

At the end of the day personal experience counts... I'm one of the most skeptical people around when it comes to this stuff... but if I have proven to myself it exists... why should I care what "neuroscience and parapsychology" tells me is possible.

It might be super-duper psi? Mike's parents knew, and mike was unknowingly receiving telepathic communication from them. How did they know to send the information? They were telepathically receiving requests from you, the medium.
Or you were obviously cheating by moving the glass.

I'm always amazed at how simple an explanation we can come up with if we just decide a priori that mind=brain. :p
 
It might be super-duper psi? Mike's parents knew, and mike was unknowingly receiving telepathic communication from them. How did they know to send the information? They were telepathically receiving requests from you, the medium.
Or you were obviously cheating by moving the glass.

What super-psi would say is that the person could have accessed a kind of 'history storage' (e.g. the akashic records argument) and retrieved the information; its a much simpler counter-argument than what you pose here.
 
What super-psi would say is that the person could have accessed a kind of 'history storage' (e.g. the akashic records argument) and retrieved the information; its a much simpler counter-argument than what you pose here.

I never thought I would see the day where I would live in a world where Skeptics started using Super-PSI as a debunking tool for Mediumship. ;)
 
Do you ever think you'd live to see the day when the "proponents" turn into "skeptics" themselves because whatever the newest theories are just boggles the mind too much?
 
Do you ever think you'd live to see the day when the "proponents" turn into "skeptics" themselves because whatever the newest theories are just boggles the mind too much?

I'm a proponent but I am still a skeptic... so yes ;)

I'm not skeptical that there is a life after death anymore and that Mediumship is real... but I asm skeptical about a lot of the theories I hear about it. Super-PSI is an example of something I am extremely skeptical of.
 
I'm a proponent but I am still a skeptic... so yes ;)

I'm not skeptical that there is a life after death anymore and that Mediumship is real... but I asm skeptical about a lot of the theories I hear about it. Super-PSI is an example of something I am extremely skeptical of.
I notice the smiley face, but indeed, the super-PSI hypothesis in its various manifestations tends to be so outrageous that it's amazing that it's ever given any consideration at all.

The same ideological group which ordinarily rejects the most mundane of PSI phenomena, then suddenly does an about turn and not only whole-heartedly embraces PSI but inflates it beyond recognition. That huge inconsistency makes it hard to take seriously.
 
The same ideological group which ordinarily rejects the most mundane of PSI phenomena, then suddenly does an about turn and not only whole-heartedly embraces PSI but inflates it beyond recognition. That huge inconsistency makes it hard to take seriously.

I don't think that's the case at all. The super-psi debate is one that solely occurs between parapsychologists, as far as I'm aware. Can you give me some names of non-believers of psi who also put forward super-psi as an explanation of certain phenomena?
 
I notice the smiley face, but indeed, the super-PSI hypothesis in its various manifestations tends to be so outrageous that it's amazing that it's ever given any consideration at all.

Are you saying that someone could access the equivalent of a "psychic google" is an outrageous consideration?

Egypt clearly thought it was possible (that's where the Akashic Records concept originally came from.) Some in the psychic community believe in giving readings about a person, which seems vaguely related to this too. Beischel has a study on that.

So proponents have suggested this as a possibility, which means its no longer outrageous.

I agree that some of the super-psi suggestions are ridiculous, but some are pretty simple and have historic roots.
 
I don't think that's the case at all. The super-psi debate is one that solely occurs between parapsychologists, as far as I'm aware. Can you give me some names of non-believers of psi who also put forward super-psi as an explanation of certain phenomena?
The term "parapsychologist" is a broad one, it includes both proponents and sceptics.
 
Are you saying that someone could access the equivalent of a "psychic google" is an outrageous consideration?

Egypt clearly thought it was possible (that's where the Akashic Records concept originally came from.) Some in the psychic community believe in giving readings about a person, which seems vaguely related to this too. Beischel has a study on that.

So proponents have suggested this as a possibility, which means its no longer outrageous.

I agree that some of the super-psi suggestions are ridiculous, but some are pretty simple and have historic roots.
I don't see what you are saying as representing the typical case where the super-psi card is played. From what I've seen it is used as the ultimate debunking technique which is impossible to disprove.

The counter-examples you've put forward come from fields where an afterlife is part of the worldview. I'm referring to cases where super-psi is used as a way of avoiding having to consider the possibility of an afterlife.
 
The term "parapsychologist" is a broad one, it includes both proponents and sceptics.
Yes, I know. That's why I specified "non-believers of psi".

You wrote:

The same ideological group which ordinarily rejects the most mundane of PSI phenomena, then suddenly does an about turn and not only whole-heartedly embraces PSI but inflates it beyond recognition

I'm asking for examples of this.
 
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Do you ever think you'd live to see the day when the "proponents" turn into "skeptics" themselves because whatever the newest theories are just boggles the mind too much?

Sure. Proponents regularly draw mental boxes around their universes with proponents in this forum perfect examples. I've yet to meet one here that hasn't.

But boggling does have a threshold value. Once boggled becomes entirely, impossibly outside any capability to comprehend, it no longer boggles. It simply zooms right over their heads.

As humans, we 'enjoy' what would at first appear to be an unjumpable chasm of separation between us and spirit. The shamans tell us that we are going to bring the whole enchilada down on ourselves - and them - if this separation continues. One of the most prominent effects of this separation is the tightly drawn mental box I mentioned up ^^^^^^.

Truly, the only difference is the size of the box. Pseuodoskeptics boxes are so tight it chokes them yet, somehow, someway, this is the pseudo-comfortability with the universe they so drastically believe they need.

Live in the mystery.
 
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