Transgender phenomena and past lives: any thoughts

#61
However it seems there are people - perhaps an incredibly small minority - who actually wouldn't be gay in their original biological form - for example I knew a transperson who was attracted to women before and after their sex reassignment.
I think the problem is, that there are a vast number of mental abnormalities. I am sure that they are difficult to treat, but I very much doubt if it helps to politicise the subject and treat it as one of rights. We don't talk of people's right to take drugs, or right to self harm, or right to drink themselves into a stupor, even though that is what they would tell you they wanted at a particular stage in their lives.

David
 
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Sciborg_S_Patel

#62
I think the problem is, that there are a vast number of mental abnormalities. I am sure that they are difficult to treat, but I very much doubt if it helps to politicise the subject and treat it as one of rights. We don't talk of people's right to take drugs, or right to self harm, or right to drink themselves into a stupor, even though that is what they would tell you they wanted at a particular stage in their lives.

David
Wait what? We - at least in the American public - talk about rights to take drugs, commit assisted suicide, and so on all the time?
 
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Sciborg_S_Patel

#63
I've seen some compelling arguments by feminists that the fight for "women's rights" has been hard and long fought. And that they don't consider transwomen to be "women." They view it as another way for men to infringe on their rights, I believe. I may be wrong on that.
Yeah I've heard that - it doesn't strike me as a compelling argument to be honest.
 
#64
Yeah I've heard that - it doesn't strike me as a compelling argument to be honest.
However, giving Caitlin Jenner the Woman of the Year award was a bit much considering there are hundreds of transwomen who have had more difficult transitions, contributed more to the community and not been related to the Kardashians :) And that's not even counting the thousands of other women who are infinitely more deserving IMO.
 
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#65
Wait what? We - at least in the American public - talk about rights to take drugs, commit assisted suicide, and so on all the time?
Well yes, but you don't find mainstream media supporting those views, and trivialising the opposite point of view. Criticising trengender policies gets described as trans-phobic. In reality I think a lot of people feel extremely sorry for these people and the situation in which they find themselves after the operation and subsequent recovery is complete.

David
 
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Sciborg_S_Patel

#66
However, giving Caitlin Jenner the Woman of the Year award was a bit much considering there are hundreds of transwomen who have had more difficult transitions, contributed more to the community and not been related to the Kardashians :) And that's not even counting the thousands of other women who are infinitely more deserving IMO.
Oh yeah I've heard lots of complaints regarding Caitlin Jenner as repping transpeople.

Also have to admit I don't put as much stock in people who say they're "demi" or "pan" - that just seems like bisexuals looking to be special though admittedly maybe I'm being unfair.

Well yes, but you don't find mainstream media supporting those views, and trivialising the opposite point of view. Criticising trengender policies gets described as trans-phobic. In reality I think a lot of people feel extremely sorry for these people and the situation in which they find themselves after the operation and subsequent recovery is complete.

David
Actually assisted suicide got at least some sympathy in the US, some might even argue too much if we extend it non-resuscitation.

The "transphobic" charge is tossed around too liberally - pun intended - but I think there are people who don't like the existence of trans for similar reasons to disliking femme lesbians who are attracted to kind of women you see in Playboy or Victoria Secret. It blows up previous certainties. And of course it challenges the idea of God creating men and women, possibly challenges gender roles (though also possibly reinforces them), etc.

Ultimately I don't see how we can take seriously research saying "A lot of NDErs met God so we have to take the existence of such a being into consideration" while invalidating a far more mundane subjective experience - that of being a man or woman in the wrong biological gbody.
 
#67
I'm probably miles out but how about:
Sex - Physical sexual characteristics
Sexuality - who you're attracted to
Gender - what sex you identify yourself as.
Does that work?
Okay, I am female (sex) and mostly het (sexuality), but I don't know what gender means as in "identifying into a gender." I am a woman because of my sex organs; the way I look; and the way I am treated. If I could identify my way out of being a woman and being sexually harassed, I would, but I can't, because my sex is what it is, and I can't change that.
 
#69
Well I'd agree it's entirely possible that some, perhaps even the majority, of cases are those of gender dysmorphia. The number of transpersons may be overestimated to their detriment.

However it seems there are people - perhaps an incredibly small minority - who actually wouldn't be gay in their original biological form - for example I knew a transperson who was attracted to women before and after their sex reassignment.

Is "4th wave" a reference to feminism waves? It does seem to me some feminists are upset because trans people existing means they're ideas about gender, sex, etc are called into question? That kind of strikes me as the same attitude as materialists toward the implications suggested by parapsychology?
I think gender dysphoria/dysmorphia is more like "body dysphoria," and people should seek therapy to make peace with themselves and their bodies.

Is this transperson a man who now identifies as a "lesbian"? Because the lesbian community has a huge problem with men like that. (Look up the "Cotton Ceiling" calling lesbians bigots for not wanting to have sex with a penis.)

Did you bother to read the 4thwavenow blog to find out what it means? It's written by a doctor who had her own struggle with her teenage daughter, who previously considered herself a lesbian, but got caught up in the Tumblr-type contagion and wanted to become a "man." She talks a great deal about what those drugs and surgeries do, what their side-effects are, etc, with interviews and guest posts.

I'm disappointed, but kind of expected, to see a response that says this is like "materialism." I don't deny that people feel like they are trans. They exist. They are real people. But you can't tell me that my biological sex doesn't exist. (Trans ideology currently says it does not.) I exist in this reality right now, and I have to treat is as real, because it has real consequences. I don't see how it relates to the study of parapsychology. I've been targeted for rape and sexual harassment since was eleven-years-old, because I am female, not because I "identify" as a female.

Pregnancy is real for me. I have experienced it.

Trans seems totally built on tearing down everything feminists fought for and reducing women to a stereotype. I am NOT on board with that.
 
#70
However, giving Caitlin Jenner the Woman of the Year award was a bit much considering there are hundreds of transwomen who have had more difficult transitions, contributed more to the community and not been related to the Kardashians :) And that's not even counting the thousands of other women who are infinitely more deserving IMO.
Caitlyn Jenner bragged about stealing his daughters clothes and wearing them. That is a boundary violation and abusive. He is what we used to call a transvestite or crossdresser. (Now called autogynephilia -- a man who is sexually aroused by the thought of being a women.) These guys are now claiming to be "trans," as the trans "umbrella" as they call it is open to anyone who defies sex-norms, and openly accepts fetishists. I think this is sad for the trans movement, the gay movement, and feminism.
 
#71
I've seen some compelling arguments by feminists that the fight for "women's rights" has been hard and long fought. And that they don't consider transwomen to be "women." They view it as another way for men to infringe on their rights, I believe. I may be wrong on that.
One of the crazy things about 'rights' is that those who push them, never seem to notice when one set of rights buts up against another - they squirm about rather than admit cleanly that there is a contradiction. Perhaps the worst example of this, is that in Britain, many young girls are taken by their parents to have their genitals mutilated (FGM):

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/jul/21/england-fgm-cases-recorded-2015-2016

You would really think that this would be top priority among feminists - far more important than the many issues that they do concern themselves with, but because this is a problem with parts of the Muslim community, it is never really pushed. Thus nobody in Britain has been successfully prosecuted for FGM! Many people consider themselves feminists and fighters against Islamaphobia, and don't see any potential contradiction.

Modern PC media never seem to get to grips with the many areas where one set of rights clashes with another!

David
 
#72
Ultimately I don't see how we can take seriously research saying "A lot of NDErs met God so we have to take the existence of such a being into consideration" while invalidating a far more mundane subjective experience - that of being a man or woman in the wrong biological body.
I don't want to invalidate what they say, I ask the question as to whether giving a mentally disturbed person - particularly a young person - exactly what they want, is the right thing to do - still more, is it right to encourage people to thing that way? Should we take an anorexic teenager help in remaining anorexic, for example?

David
 
#73
Okay, I am female (sex) and mostly het (sexuality), but I don't know what gender means as in "identifying into a gender." I am a woman because of my sex organs; the way I look; and the way I am treated. If I could identify my way out of being a woman and being sexually harassed, I would, but I can't, because my sex is what it is, and I can't change that.
I think perhaps your gender is how you see yourself. I would imagine it's either male or female, as per sex. That said, it's only my own perspective. I am learning to become wary of extrapolating from my own experiences of life.

The way others treat you because of their perception of your sex is not something you can change as far as I can see. You can only control your own reaction to it. Perhaps an analogy would be skin colour: if some people make assumption about us and treat us in a specific way because of the colour of our skin, the error lies with them, not us.
 
#74
Okay, I am female (sex) and mostly het (sexuality), but I don't know what gender means as in "identifying into a gender." I am a woman because of my sex organs; the way I look; and the way I am treated. If I could identify my way out of being a woman and being sexually harassed, I would, but I can't, because my sex is what it is, and I can't change that.
I think when your biological sex, and gender identification are in line it is hard to know what it would feel like if they were not.

A friend and colleague of mine (male) who identified as female his whole life only went through the transition at age 79 - full op. "T" was an British RAF pilot in WWII, was married, had 2 children and was a respected sociology professor (mainly criminology) at a Canadian university. She did not go through the change while she was married as her wife was completely against it. After her wife died she went ahead with the op against the recommendations of her doctor and never regretted it.

For whatever reason she identified as female from a young child. Her parents who were quite well to do took her to the best psychiatrists on Harley Street, London when she was a teen in an effort to "cure" her. While they could *not change the way she felt they did manage to control her life choices. "T" always was extremely understanding of why they did that, and did not seem to hold grudges. Before she died she spent the best part of her last decade living as she wanted.

A lot of my understanding of trans come from my conversations with "T" although we talked about many different things, especially the prison systems (of which she was most knowledgeable).

I don't know what she would make of the developments in the gender conversation (or should I say monologue) coming out of universities today. As a proponent of free speech I have a feeling she would be a Jordan Peterson supporter!

 
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#75
I think when your biological sex, and gender identification are in line it is hard to know what it would feel like if they were not.

A friend and colleague of mine (male) who identified as female his whole life only went through the transition at age 79 - full op. "T" was an British RAF pilot in WWII, was married, had 2 children and was a respected sociology professor (mainly criminology) at a Canadian university. She did not go through the change while she was married as her wife was completely against it. After her wife died she went ahead with the op against the recommendations of her doctor and never regretted it.

For whatever reason she identified as female from a young child. Her parents who were quite well to do took her to the best psychiatrists on Harley Street, London when she was a teen in an effort to "cure" her. While they could *not change the way she felt they did manage to control her life choices. "T" always was extremely understanding of why they did that, and did not seem to hold grudges. Before she died she spent the best part of her last decade living as she wanted.

A lot of my understanding of trans come from my conversations with "T" although we talked about many different things, especially the prison systems (of which she was most knowledgeable).

I don't know what she would make of the developments in the gender conversation (or should I say monologue) coming out of universities today. As a proponent of free speech I have a feeling she would be a Jordan Peterson supporter!


What do you mean by "gender identification"? What does that mean? I don't feel like I have a "gender." I have a personality, and I was born as a female (sex). Am I "agender"? And therefore not "cis"?

BTW, men who served in the military have higher rates of becoming "trans women" compared to the general population. An interesting statistic. I have some ideas of why.

Is your idea of what makes a man or a woman a collection of stereotypes? Maybe boys decide they are girls because they like ponies, pink and sparkles, and their parents tell them they can't do that. And girls want to be boys because they are tomboys, who like trucks, cars, and getting dirty, like I did. I wonder how homophobic these parents are. Many in the gay community see trans as nothing more than gay-conversion therapy, just like Iran.

Sad to think I would be put on puberty blockers because I liked "boy stuff" instead of "girl stuff," and then put on cross-sex hormones at 13 or 14, being effectively sterilized. And then have my breasts cut off, so I could be a "man" because I just liked what I liked. This is not an exaggeration, this is actually happening to boys and girls.

I know we liberals are tolerant, but this is child abuse. We laughed at creationists for denying science, but there really is no science backing this up.
 
#77
What do you mean by "gender identification"? What does that mean? I don't feel like I have a "gender." I have a personality, and I was born as a female (sex). Am I "agender"? And therefore not "cis"?
I understand and am sympathetic to what you are saying. However, if you have a different internal experience of gender as many trans people claim to, then their expression of gender will necessarily reflect that. As I tried to explain, unless one's gender identity does not 'fit' with their biological sex it is hard to comprehend. I feel the same as you about my gender, it is not something I think about much. However, this clearly is not the case for all people.

Is your idea of what makes a man or a woman a collection of stereotypes? Maybe boys decide they are girls because they like ponies, pink and sparkles, and their parents tell them they can't do that. And girls want to be boys because they are tomboys, who like trucks, cars, and getting dirty, like I did.
No, my idea of gender is not based on a collection of stereotypes. However the means by which people express gender are contained within various gender roles, behaviours, gestures and narratives. A few years ago when I was still involved in the academic community I was interested in the notion of "doing gender" using ethnomethodology to determine how everyday notions of gender are constructed. Gender obviously goes far beyond stereotypical behaviours and is constructed and recreated through interactions with others. For example, a transgender person who was particularly good at establishing authentic gender signals (etnnomethodologists call it "passing") would go completely unquestioned. In this case there would be a match between their gender identity (defined by Goffman 1976) as an "essential nature" and their outward expression of gender, but not their biological birth sex assignment.

I wonder how homophobic these parents are. Many in the gay community see trans as nothing more than gay-conversion therapy, just like Iran.
I really don't think that people encourage their children to "go" trans because they are more afraid of having a gay child! And if the gay community really do feel this way (which I am unaware of) then clearly they too are not sympathetic to the specific struggles of the trans community.

Sad to think I would be put on puberty blockers because I liked "boy stuff" instead of "girl stuff," and then put on cross-sex hormones at 13 or 14, being effectively sterilized. And then have my breasts cut off, so I could be a "man" because I just liked what I liked. This is not an exaggeration, this is actually happening to boys and girls.
I agree with you to a large extent here. It would be interesting to have some numbers on how many children are actually undergoing these procedures. While I understand the argument that preventing puberty may make the transition easier physically, I personally think that such invasive procedures should be held off until adulthood when the individual is mature enough to make enduring decisions. Even then there will always those who wish to transition back but in all honesty this could happen to any of us in any avenue of life.

I know we liberals are tolerant, but this is child abuse. We laughed at creationists for denying science, but there really is no science backing this up.
I am actually beginning to think that liberals are a lot less tolerant than they think they are!! I don't know if I would go so far as to call it child abuse as the intention is not one of harm, even if the result is. However, many of life's choices are unknown, and people make bad choices all the time. As for science not backing it up, I'm not sure what you mean. Science will tell us that preventing puberty will produce or prevent certain changes in the physical body. What science cannot do, and will likely never do, is interpret our internal struggles and make decisions for us.
 
#78
Thank you for being respectful in your reply, as I am often called a "bigot" or told to kill myself or die in a fire or told to "get raped" for my views. But that is why I appreciate these forums. I just saw this post and want to give you a longer reply, with links, as I have to be very careful around this issue and supply a lot of evidence for my views.
 
#79
I wouldn't be the least bit surprised to discover I'd been a woman in my most recent past life or even the majority of them. There are several significant aspects of my personality and sexuality that are very feminine, like the fact that I'm generally driven more by emotion than logic, or the fact that I'm very, very bad at math and other mechanical/spatial things that men are supposed to be good at. I feel no real sense of kinship or identity with other men. All these feminine traits have caused me a lot of problems. Ultimately, I believe I'd be much better off if I'd been born female, and I've occasionally wondered if maybe I was supposed to be born female, but some kind of freak accident happened and I was born male instead. However, despite all of this, I don't have any particular desire to get a sex change, and even if I did, I'd still only be attracted to women. A while back, I came across the term "male lesbian", which I think describes me very well. I believe the guy who came up with that concept also talked a bit about past lives in his book.


I've seen some compelling arguments by feminists that the fight for "women's rights" has been hard and long fought. And that they don't consider transwomen to be "women." They view it as another way for men to infringe on their rights, I believe. I may be wrong on that.
It's odd that feminists would believe that, since they're the ones who are always talking about how women have it so bad in society and men are all privileged. If that were the case, why would so many men want to become women and so few women want to become men? To say that transwomen are trying to infringe on women's rights is to admit that women actually have advantages in society, which runs counter to the entire feminist narrative.
 
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#80
I wouldn't be the least bit surprised to discover I'd been a woman in my most recent past life or even the majority of them. There are several significant aspects of my personality and sexuality that are very feminine, like the fact that I'm generally driven more by emotion than logic, or the fact that I'm very, very bad at math and other mechanical/spatial things that men are supposed to be good at. I feel no real sense of kinship or identity with other men. All these feminine traits have caused me a lot of problems. Ultimately, I believe I'd be much better off if I'd been born female, and I've occasionally wondered if maybe I was supposed to be born female, but some kind of freak accident happened and I was born male instead. However, despite all of this, I don't have any particular desire to get as sex change, and even if I did, I'd still only be attracted to women. A while back, I came across the term "male lesbian", which I think describes me very well. I believe the guy who came up with that concept also talked a bit about past lives in his book.
I have felt the same to some degree. I can "fake" being a part of a group of men if I am working in an office or something, but it is always as an outsider. My family is all nieces and daughters and that is where I am really at home.

It's odd that feminists would believe that, since they're the ones who are always talking about how women have it so bad in society and men are all privileged. If that were the case, why would so many men want to become women and so few women want to become men? To say that transwomen are trying to infringe on women's rights is to admit that women actually have advantages in society, which runs counter to the entire feminist narrative.
It is not all feminists. Only a certain segment feel that way. I don't think they feel they have advantages, only that they have won certain rights through a long struggle. And they don't feel like backtracking and sharing those rights with a man. They don't feel that a transgender woman is ever anything but a man. He was born with a penis and they were born with a vagina and that is the rock bottom of the argument.
 
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