Transgender phenomena and past lives: any thoughts

#81
Thanks, this is exactly the kind of sexist thinking I am talking about.

You might be a woman because you are emotional rather than logical? You are bad at math and “mechanical/spatial things”?

Women can be good or bad at these things too. Your problem is with masculinity within the culture. Just because the culture says you are a “failed man” because you don’t live up to that ideal DOES NOT MAKE YOU A WOMAN. Women ARE NOT FAILED MEN. We are women, and all it entails being a woman.

There are women who are logicians, mechanical engineers, and very good at math. That does NOT make them men.

I was going to go into the Cotton Ceiling but then thought better of it.

It's odd that feminists would believe that, since they're the ones who are always talking about how women have it so bad in society and men are all privileged. If that were the case, why would so many men want to become women and so few women want to become men? To say that transwomen are trying to infringe on women's rights is to admit that women actually have advantages in society, which runs counter to the entire feminist narrative.
What are these “advantages” that women have in society, besides being prized for their looks over their intelligence and ambition? Men across the entire planet hold political and economic power. Why should women center men like you in feminism, rather than natal women?

And now, due to the social contagion of trans ideology, many young women DO want to be men to escape the sexist thinking and misogyny you just spewed. If they are logical, good at math, etc, well, they must be men, because women are rather stupid and emotional, so therefore they are not women. Right?

-signed by a woman who is good at math.
 
#82
I have felt the same to some degree. I can "fake" being a part of a group of men if I am working in an office or something, but it is always as an outsider. My family is all nieces and daughters and that is where I am really at home.
Again, not being comfortable with our culture's current ideals about masculinity does not make a man "feminine" or a woman. My (Californian) husband, growing up, was teased and called gay by his cousins from Oklahoma because he enjoyed arts and music. Rigid ideals about what is "masculine" and what is "feminine" is the problem, and it changes with culture.
 
#84
Again, not being comfortable with our culture's current ideals about masculinity does not make a man "feminine" or a woman. My (Californian) husband, growing up, was teased and called gay by his cousins from Oklahoma because he enjoyed arts and music. Rigid ideals about what is "masculine" and what is "feminine" is the problem, and it changes with culture.
However gay and female aren't equivalents either :)
 
#86
Again, not being comfortable with our culture's current ideals about masculinity does not make a man "feminine" or a woman. My (Californian) husband, growing up, was teased and called gay by his cousins from Oklahoma because he enjoyed arts and music. Rigid ideals about what is "masculine" and what is "feminine" is the problem, and it changes with culture.
Sorry. But you don't get to tell me how to feel. I don't think that the only difference between a man and a woman is some raggedly flesh between the legs. Some part of me knows very clearly that I was recently a woman in a previous life (confirmed by a very intense past life regression.) It's an insult to my intelligence and to the depth of my insight that you get to claim that I'm mixed up by my cultural programming. I've been around enough different types of males to understand that not every man rides a horse and smokes Marlboros. I worked in a gay and lesbian resort for three years. I've been friends with drag queens and trans people and bull dike lesbians. I don't give a fucking shit about someone's gender. Honestly gender bores the fucking shit out of me. I'm tired of hearing about it.

When I say I was woman in previous lives and "in some ways" I'm more comfortable in that role that's what I mean and that's all I mean. I wasn't the one who said women are illogical so you can spread your fucking woman-splaining on someone else.
 
S

Sciborg_S_Patel

#88
Chuck,

I get what you are saying but I do think Doppleganger has made a worthy point - that there are likely people who should not transition but think they should because of cultural norms over what women and men are like.

OTOH, one of the trans-people I know was a Vietnam vet and has been married to a woman for decades. So while I do acknowledge that there are potentially less transpersons than some might want us to believe, there remain some who seem to survive and maximize their happiness via transitioning.
 
#90
Chuck,

I get what you are saying but I do think Doppleganger has made a worthy point - that there are likely people who should not transition but think they should because of cultural norms over what women and men are like.

OTOH, one of the trans-people I know was a Vietnam vet and has been married to a woman for decades. So while I do acknowledge that there are potentially less transpersons than some might want us to believe, there remain some who seem to survive and maximize their happiness via transitioning.
I love trans people to death. Couldn't be happier to have someone who feels they want to transition to another gender work through that process.
 
S

Sciborg_S_Patel

#92
I love trans people to death. Couldn't be happier to have someone who feels they want to transition to another gender work through that process.
The question is whether everyone who wants to transition ultimately will be better off or accept an irreversible decision.

Don't get me wrong - I still think real freedom is the freedom to risk mistakes. I just think we do need to also present people with all options to make an educated choice.
 
#93
Thanks, this is exactly the kind of sexist thinking I am talking about.
Well, you're quick to jump to the ad hominem attacks and assume the absolute worst about people, aren't you?


You might be a woman because you are emotional rather than logical? You are bad at math and “mechanical/spatial things”?
Those are ways in which I consider myself to have what people usually consider a "feminine" personality. I could have discussed other things, like my dislike of body hair or my preferred role in sexual relationships, but that's more personal than I'm comfortable discussing right now.


Women can be good or bad at these things too.
I never said they couldn't.


Your problem is with masculinity within the culture. Just because the culture says you are a “failed man” because you don’t live up to that ideal DOES NOT MAKE YOU A WOMAN.
Did you just completely miss the part where I said I don't actually want a sex change and don't really consider myself a woman?


Women ARE NOT FAILED MEN. We are women, and all it entails being a woman.
There are women who are logicians, mechanical engineers, and very good at math. That does NOT make them men.
Christ, you're putting a lot of words in my mouth. I never said anything about women being failed men, women who are into math actually being men, or anything like that. I honestly have no idea where any of this is coming from. I think you're having quite a kneejerk reaction here, assuming any man who questions feminism is a conservative traditionalist who thinks women belong in the kitchen or something.


What are these “advantages” that women have in society
For one thing, women aren't considered disposable/expendable. Their suffering isn't mocked. People don't laugh openly about their genitals being mutilated on daytime talk shows.


besides being prized for their looks over their intelligence and ambition?
I don't believe that's true, but let's assume for a moment that is is. The flip side of that is never being appreciated for your looks, not being considered to have any inherent beauty or value, and being considered worthless and deserving of scorn if you're not sufficiently successful in materialistic society, even if you have no interest in such "success". And that's what men face.


Men across the entire planet hold political and economic power.
Correction: A tiny minority of men, and some women, hold political and economic power. In no way whatsoever does that translate to men in general having power. This is known as the apex fallacy, and it's a common feminist mistake.


Why should women center men like you in feminism
I don't expect feminists to "center" any men, because I don't believe they care about men.


And now, due to the social contagion of trans ideology, many young women DO want to be men to escape the sexist thinking and misogyny you just spewed. If they are logical, good at math, etc, well, they must be men, because women are rather stupid and emotional, so therefore they are not women. Right?
And now, due to your blind hatred of anyone who dares question feminist dogma, you once again attack me for things I never said and throw out the accusation of misogyny (a word that's thrown around so much that it's lost all meaning) just because I said I think I'm a feminine man and wouldn't be surprised to learn I'd been a woman in a past life.
 
#94
Sorry. But you don't get to tell me how to feel.
Where did I tell you how to feel?

I don't think that the only difference between a man and a woman is some raggedly flesh between the legs
Yes, the difference between males and females, both human and non-human, in sexually dimorphic species, is how they reproduce. In most mammals, that is about who produces ova and who produces sperm. That is just our biological reality in this reality. (What this reality is, of course, open to debate.)

Some part of me knows very clearly that I was recently a woman in a previous life (confirmed by a very intense past life regression.)
I was in no way talking about who you were in previous lives. That had nothing to do with my point.

It's an insult to my intelligence and to the depth of my insight that you get to claim that I'm mixed up by my cultural programming.
We are all mixed-up by cultural programming and propaganda.

But I think men=(insert cultural stereotypes of masculinity) and woman=(insert cultural stereotypes of femininity) is a deeply harmful idea.

I’ve been around enough different types of males to understand that not every man rides a horse and smokes Marlboros. I worked in a gay and lesbian resort for three years. I've been friends with drag queens and trans people and bull dike lesbians. I don't give a fucking shit about someone's gender. Honestly gender bores the fucking shit out of me. I'm tired of hearing about it.
Yes, I have done similar, and I love my gay and lesbian friends to death. Most of my trans clients at the homeless shelter were doing survival sex-work and harassed by the police on the regular.

“Gender” is part of feminist analysis — that “gender” is a social construct, which is counter to the newer trans ideology that sex is a social construct. Feminists analyzed gender to see the harms that it visits on people, particularly women.

When I say I was woman in previous lives and "in some ways" I'm more comfortable in that role that's what I mean and that's all I mean. I wasn't the one who said women are illogical so you can spread your fucking woman-splaining on someone else.
I am not here to dispute what your previous lives are about. I meant to say you are talking about “femininity” and “masculinity,” which are products of their time and culture. I did not say anything to you about women being illogical — that was a reply to a different poster.

“Woman-splaining” — really? Okay. You don’t like hearing a feminist analysis of gender from a woman?

If you prefer, I will refrain from responding to your posts.

FWIW, none of my posts were meant to denigrate you or your experiences.
 
#95
On edit: This looks like a mess, sorry! I am on mobile and can't correct it right now. So sorry!

Well, you're quick to jump to the ad hominem attacks and assume the absolute worst about people, aren't you?



Those are ways in which I consider myself to have what people usually consider a "feminine" personality. I could have discussed other things, like my dislike of body hair or my preferred role in sexual relationships, but that's more personal than I'm comfortable discussing right now.



I never said they couldn't.



Did you just completely miss the part where I said I don't actually want a sex change and don't really consider myself a woman?




Christ, you're putting a lot of words in my mouth. I never said anything about women being failed men, women who are into math actually being men, or anything like that. I honestly have no idea where any of this is coming from. I think you're having quite a kneejerk reaction here, assuming any man who questions feminism is a conservative traditionalist who thinks women belong in the kitchen or something.



For one thing, women aren't considered disposable/expendable. Their suffering isn't mocked. People don't laugh openly about their genitals being mutilated on daytime talk shows.



I don't believe that's true, but let's assume for a moment that is is. The flip side of that is never being appreciated for your looks, not being considered to have any inherent beauty or value, and being considered worthless and deserving of scorn if you're not sufficiently successful in materialistic society, even if you have no interest in such "success". And that's what men face.



Correction: A tiny minority of men, and some women, hold political and economic power. In no way whatsoever does that translate to men in general having power. This is known as the apex fallacy, and it's a common feminist mistake.



I don't expect feminists to "center" any men, because I don't believe they care about men.



And now, due to your blind hatred of anyone who dares question feminist dogma, you once again attack me for things I never said and throw out the accusation of misogyny (a word that's thrown around so much that it's lost all meaning) just because I said I think I'm a feminine man and wouldn't be surprised to learn I'd been a woman in a past life.
Well, you're quick to jump to the ad hominem attacks and assume the absolute worst about people, aren't you?



Those are ways in which I consider myself to have what people usually consider a "feminine" personality. I could have discussed other things, like my dislike of body hair or my preferred role in sexual relationships, but that's more personal than I'm comfortable discussing right now.



I never said they couldn't.



Did you just completely miss the part where I said I don't actually want a sex change and don't really consider myself a woman?




Christ, you're putting a lot of words in my mouth. I never said anything about women being failed men, women who are into math actually being men, or anything like that. I honestly have no idea where any of this is coming from. I think you're having quite a kneejerk reaction here, assuming any man who questions feminism is a conservative traditionalist who thinks women belong in the kitchen or something.



For one thing, women aren't considered disposable/expendable. Their suffering isn't mocked. People don't laugh openly about their genitals being mutilated on daytime talk shows.



I don't believe that's true, but let's assume for a moment that is is. The flip side of that is never being appreciated for your looks, not being considered to have any inherent beauty or value, and being considered worthless and deserving of scorn if you're not sufficiently successful in materialistic society, even if you have no interest in such "success". And that's what men face.



Correction: A tiny minority of men, and some women, hold political and economic power. In no way whatsoever does that translate to men in general having power. This is known as the apex fallacy, and it's a common feminist mistake.



I don't expect feminists to "center" any men, because I don't believe they care about men.



And now, due to your blind hatred of anyone who dares question feminist dogma, you once again attack me for things I never said and throw out the accusation of misogyny (a word that's thrown around so much that it's lost all meaning) just because I said I think I'm a feminine man and wouldn't be surprised to learn I'd been a woman in a past life.
Doppelgänger said: (go to post)
Thanks, this is exactly the kind of sexist thinking I am talking about.
Well, you're quick to jump to the ad hominem attacks and assume the absolute worst about people, aren't you?
Where is the ad hom? You said you were more like a woman because you are emotional, bad at math and spatial thinking. That is sexist.

An ad hominem is attacking the person rather than the argument, by the way. I am attacking your argument that you are a woman due to the above “deficits.” I didn’t call you a sexist; I said your argument was sexist or sexist thinking.


Doppelgänger said: (go to post)
You might be a woman because you are emotional rather than logical? You are bad at math and “mechanical/spatial things”?

Those are ways in which I consider myself to have what people usually consider a "feminine" personality. I could have discussed other things, like my dislike of body hair or my preferred role in sexual relationships, but that's more personal than I'm comfortable discussing right now.
Can you define what you mean by a “feminine personality?”


Doppelgänger said: (go to post)
Women can be good or bad at these things too.
I never said they couldn’t.
But that is what you implied.


Doppelgänger said: (go to post)
Your problem is with masculinity within the culture. Just because the culture says you are a “failed man” because you don’t live up to that ideal DOES NOT MAKE YOU A WOMAN.
Did you just completely miss the part where I said I don't actually want a sex change and don't really consider myself a woman?
I did see that (and I don’t consider cosmetic surgery to resemble the opposite sex a “sex change,” anyway.) But you did talk about not feeling kinship with other men due to your personality, and that makes you more of a woman. I was not calling you a “failed man.” It is men who do this to other men when they don’t live up to the ideal of masculinity. A


Doppelgänger said: (go to post)
Women ARE NOT FAILED MEN. We are women, and all it entails being a woman.
Doppelgänger said: (go to post)
There are women who are logicians, mechanical engineers, and very good at math. That does NOT make them men.
Christ, you're putting a lot of words in my mouth.
You know, perhaps I did do that, and if so, I apologize. But you were using a lot of the language and buzz words, but could be mistaken, and if so, I apologize.

I never said anything about women being failed men, women who are into math actually being men, or anything like that. I honestly have no idea where any of this is coming from. I think you're having quite a kneejerk reaction here, assuming any man who questions feminism is a conservative traditionalist who thinks women belong in the kitchen or something.
See above about the “failed men.” I don’t think anyone who questions feminism is a conservative traditionalist. I have my own issues with third-wave feminism, and I have got some shit for it. Ultimately, I don’t think any movement is above critique.


Doppelgänger said: (go to post)
What are these “advantages” that women have in society

For one thing, women aren't considered disposable/expendable.
We are going to disagree here because women are considered disposable. We are seen as either fulfilling men’s sexual desires or as incubators. Female prostitutes are certainly considered disposable, though I am vehemently against that thinking.

Their suffering isn't mocked. People don't laugh openly about their genitals being mutilated on daytime talk shows.
Women’s suffering is constantly mocked. Entire porn genres exist to mock women’s suffering that men look at every day.

And are you talking about circumcision? I am against it, personally. I refused to have my son’s genitals mutilated, though my family was not happy about it!

I have no idea what you mean about daytime talk shows since I don’t watch them and don’t have television (only Netflix).


Doppelgänger said: (go to post)
besides being prized for their looks over their intelligence and ambition?
I don't believe that's true, but let's assume for a moment that is is. The flip side of that is never being appreciated for your looks, not being considered to have any inherent beauty or value, and being considered worthless and deserving of scorn if you're not sufficiently successful in materialistic society, even if you have no interest in such "success". And that's what men face.
Women go through the same thing. We are human beings, people, just like you. We got mocked constantly for our looks (a whole billion-dollar industry exists to make women feel bad about their looks), and if we don’t succeed in this materialist society, we are also devalued. Called useless, stupid, unintelligent, “bad” at [insert industry here], and if we do marry a successful man, we are “gold diggers.”


Doppelgänger said: (go to post)
Men across the entire planet hold political and economic power.
Correction: A tiny minority of men, and some women, hold political and economic power. In no way whatsoever does that translate to men in general having power. This is known as the apex fallacy, and it's a common feminist mistake.
Sure, the richest and most powerful people in the world are men. They are the minority. The majority of men around the planet also hold power over women. Even the poorest men in countries like India, Saudi Arabia, Thailand, China, and on and on are considered “better” than women. Parents use ultrasounds to abort female fetuses as they are “useless.” Even men in Western countries prefer boys over girls.

Look, we all have our struggles, but this “women have it good” thing is BS. Every sex has its problems, unique to them.


Doppelgänger said: (go to post)
Why should women center men like you in feminism
I don't expect feminists to "center" any men, because I don't believe they care about men.
It’s not because they don’t care about men, as most women are heterosexual and have husbands and also have sons. The purpose of feminism is a liberation movement for women. Would you say that a black-rights movement has to worry about whites? Groups are allowed to prioritize their own interests over others in a movement.

And now, due to your blind hatred of anyone who dares question feminist dogma, you once again attack me for things I never said and throw out the accusation of misogyny (a word that's thrown around so much that it's lost all meaning) just because I said I think I'm a feminine man and wouldn't be surprised to learn I'd been a woman in a past life.
And there it is. I am “hating.” Where did I hate? I have nothing against “feminine” men. My problem is with the word “feminine.” I think men can like ponies, sparkles, pink and dresses. But they are still men, and good for them for doing that and challenging the cultural norms.

For someone who “feels like a woman” you do not come off as someone who has any empathy for women.
 
Last edited:
#96
However gay and female aren't equivalents either :)
Of course they are not, but homophobia does seem to be rooted in misogyny. Gay men are beaten up and marginalized because they are "feminine," or "acting like women." (See: effeminate) They are called "sissys" and "acting like girls."

So, yes, there is still a correlation there.
 
#97
Chuck,

I get what you are saying but I do think Doppleganger has made a worthy point - that there are likely people who should not transition but think they should because of cultural norms over what women and men are like.

OTOH, one of the trans-people I know was a Vietnam vet and has been married to a woman for decades. So while I do acknowledge that there are potentially less transpersons than some might want us to believe, there remain some who seem to survive and maximize their happiness via transitioning.
Thanks, Sci. I know you and I don't agree on this issue, but man it sucks to be completely misunderstood and attacked on this forum.

I think there are some people where fully transitioning is the best choice to alleviate their suffering, and I know trans women who transitioned but fully accept they are male and can't be women and are okay about it. But I think transitioning should be a thing of last resort. And my biggest problem is with trans ideology that has sprang up in the last five years. It's completely different from what our friend Chuck experienced when he lived in SF (where I live now). I mean, completely different. It's a total attack on gay people and especially lesbians, and the regressive ideas about masculinity and femininity.

I was a trans ally for many years until this change happened. I think the problem here is that we are talking past one another.
 
#98
Of course they are not, but homophobia does seem to be rooted in misogyny. Gay men are beaten up and marginalized because they are "feminine," or "acting like women." (See: effeminate) They are called "sissys" and "acting like girls."

So, yes, there is still a correlation there.
Maybe but I am not sure it's definitely rooted in misogyny. I think homophobia is more about fear than any perceived superiority or hatred of women per se. The problem with 'effeminacy" I suspect is that it causes confusion, which leads to fear, which leads to hate...and I won't continue the Yoda quote.

Effimancy also challenges the concept that our gender and/or sexuality is in some way fixed or clearly defined. I suspect that's very worrying if one's self-worth is tied up in one's gender. Plenty of gay men are uncomfortable with effeminacy.
 
#99
Maybe but I am not sure it's definitely rooted in misogyny. I think homophobia is more about fear than any perceived superiority or hatred of women per se. The problem with 'effeminacy" I suspect is that it causes confusion, which leads to fear, which leads to hate...and I won't continue the Yoda quote.

Effimancy also challenges the concept that our gender and/or sexuality is in some way fixed or clearly defined. I suspect that's very worrying if one's self-worth is tied up in one's gender. Plenty of gay men are uncomfortable with effeminacy.
Last post tonight before I have to take a nap and go to work....

Gay men across cultures and ages been accused of being "women" or acting like women or performing femininity. In contemporary Iran, they are given a "sex change," since being gay is basically heresy. I really don't want to go into sex acts, but gay men are accused of "being the woman" in that too. Have you read the what anti-gay cultures say about gay men? They revile them for taking on the "female" role.

FFS, this is 101 stuff here. Has anyone here read about feminism and gay rights? I getting really depressed about this.
 
Last post tonight before I have to take a nap and go to work....

Gay men across cultures and ages been accused of being "women" or acting like women or performing femininity. In contemporary Iran, they are given a "sex change," since being gay is basically heresy. I really don't want to go into sex acts, but gay men are accused of "being the woman" in that too. Have you read the what anti-gay cultures say about gay men? They revile them for taking on the "female" role.

FFS, this is 101 stuff here. Has anyone here read about feminism and gay rights? I getting really depressed about this.
I am gay Doppelgänger. I don't need lecturing in prejudice or how it is interpreted by society from you thank you. I am fully aware from direct personal experience. It is far more nuanced than you seem to think. Get off your high horse.

As an aside, why would heterosexual men (or women) necessarily have any reason to read about feminism and/or its connection with gay rights or gay rights as a subject in its own right unless it impinged on their lives somehow? For many heterosexuals issues such as homosexuality, gender and sexuality in general don't have any practical relevance. They get through life quite well without thinking about it until they need to, if a friend or relative are impacted by it for example. Perhaps the people you're engaging with on here have never really thought much about the issues. Ranting isn't going to encourage open discussion.
 
Last edited:
Top