Vincent Tolman, NDE Lessons |591|

So professor van der Horst (who wrote the article for the Jerusalem Center of Public Affairs) is saying the same thing I've been saying:

On the balance of things, Josephus was pro-Jewish / against people attacking his ethnic group.

More specifically, what I've been saying:
Josephus became a turncoat for the Romans, but when the Flavians were done away with, he showed his true loyalty, writing against people who were attacking his people.

That's also why the New Testament is such a mess of pro- and anti-Jewish elements.

As you might remember, Atwill calls my argument "post hoc logic". But really it's just finding the most plausible explanation for the available evidence:

Josephus was probably never all-in on the Roman side. He added a mixture of anti-Jewish/pro-Roman aspects and pro-Jewish/anti-Gentile aspects to the New Testament:

'Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.'
John 4:22

And Josephus' more fully disclosed loyalty is shown after the Flavian dynasty had ended, when his enslavers had been vanquished. Thus he could write his unabashedly pro-Jewish / contra anti-Jewish work, Against Apion...
 
The development in Josephus' writing is so obvious when looked on a meta-level. Even professor van der Horst and the Jerusalem Center of Public Affairs agree: on the balance of things, Josephus was pro-Jewish and contra anti-Jewish.
 
Just to clarify:
The alternative theory is that the New Testament is a neat conspiratorial work by the Roman power elite and a Jew who betrayed his own people.

That on the face of it might sound plausible. As Atwill likes to say: it's a Roman psyop "from tip to stern"... Anything in the New Testament that might appear pro-Jewish is really just "bait" for the Jews to take the poison.

I can destroy that argument with one example. It's something you've often quoted, Alex, and marveled at. Why would Josephus write that he's a leading member of all these hostile Jewish sects?

To Josephus' busy, foreign overlords, they would likely have lapped this up. Whereas a Jewish readership would have read Josephus' introduction and known the claims of being a "super Jew" (to use your phrase Alex) were absolutely absurd. Likewise the Jewish audience would have known the rest of the text by Josephus was not to be taken seriously...

And who else in Josephus' works claimed to be a "super Jew"? (with the same attributes as Josephus, teaching the Jewish priesthoods)...

JESUS.

So it's another "heads up" to the potential Jewish audience: don't take this text seriously. It's for the ignorant Gentiles........

So rather than doing what Atwill claims, that Josephus was coating a trap for the Jews with some bait, Josephus was doing the exact opposite: giving the Jewish audience a "heads up" that the New Testament and Jewish War are nonsense, and ultimately for it to backfire on the Gentiles: to weaken them with a slavish, masochistic worldview and behaviour.
 
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PS: one further clarification: read superficially (as Atwill does), the New Testament appears anti-Jewish. But the New Testament (and Josephus' openly authored works) give the Jewish audience "heads up" that it's nonsense, that it's rather designed to weaken the Romans in the long-term. (That's also the reason for the obsession of converting the gentiles)...

And Josephus' plan worked:
The Jewish ethnicity, although suffering setbacks, survived. The Roman ethnicity, although appearing to win, ultimately did not.
The Roman ethnicity no longer exists. The Jewish ethnicity survives.
 
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PS: one further clarification: read superficially (as Atwill does), the New Testament appears anti-Jewish. But the New Testament (and Josephus' openly authored works) give the Jewish audience "heads up" that it's nonsense, that it's rather designed to weaken the Romans in the long-term. (That's also the reason for the obsession of converting the gentiles)...

And Josephus' plan worked:
The Jewish ethnicity, although suffering setbacks, survived. The Roman ethnicity, although appearing to win, ultimately did not.
The Roman ethnicity no longer exists. The Jewish ethnicity survives.

To me this all depends on where you're trying to get. IMO the most significant part of Josephus is

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Because this clearly shows him as being not only a propaganda agent for the Romans, but as someone who has been tasked with using religion as a means to socially engineer part of the Roman Empire population. so, this is clear... this is evidence. all the stuff about the New Testament is much more speculative.
 
For the Roman ethnicity, Christianity meant "Game over".

The other problem I have with where you're going with this is that you are going to need to prop up the Thunder God religion in a way that I just don't think is Justified. you're going to wind up in a "which is the one true religion" kind of thing between Judaism and Christianity. I don't think that works. I think they're both way way too scammy for that.
 
I think they're both way way too scammy for that.
What human institutional-level activity isn't "scammy" at scale? I always find this an odd criticism as it seems to be applied selectively or more directly doesn't differentiate since its universal (to my view).
 
What human institutional-level activity isn't "scammy" at scale? I always find this an odd criticism as it seems to be applied selectively or more directly doesn't differentiate since its universal (to my view).
sure, if you want to throw religion into the "human institution" bucket... but they claim to be more.
 
sure, if you want to throw religion into the "human institution" bucket... but they claim to be more.
For sure, but I see this as conflating two things that seem independent. (The religious institution(s) vs the source (e.g., Jesus, God, etc in this case))

Its akin to me of using some of the bad institutional actions/actors in science to discredit the underlying notion of science itself. Same thing in education these days. We just tend to muddy up things as humans but I don't see that as evidence that the thing being muddied is, itself, 'muddy' (untrue, unworthy, etc.).
 
Now we're getting somewhere
For sure, but I see this as conflating two things that seem independent. (The religious institution(s) vs the source (e.g., Jesus, God, etc in this case))

Its akin to me of using some of the bad institutional actions/actors in science to discredit the underlying notion of science itself. Same thing in education these days. We just tend to muddy up things as humans but I don't see that as evidence that the thing being muddied is, itself, 'muddy' (untrue, unworthy, etc.).
For sure, but I see this as conflating two things that seem independent. (The religious institution(s) vs the source (e.g., Jesus, God, etc in this case))

Its akin to me of using some of the bad institutional actions/actors in science to discredit the underlying notion of science itself. Same thing in education these days. We just tend to muddy up things as humans but I don't see that as evidence that the thing being muddied is, itself, 'muddy' (untrue, unworthy, etc.).

I get it... you get it... but that's not the claim religion is making.
 
IMO the most significant part of Josephus is

View attachment 2561

Because this clearly shows him as being not only a propaganda agent for the Romans, but as someone who has been tasked with using religion as a means to socially engineer part of the Roman Empire population. so, this is clear... this is evidence.

Sure. I agree with you that that's the most significant passage. But that's already for us a "given". What I'm talking about is to what degree Josephus really became pro-Roman/anti-Jewish (deep down), and especially re the passage I quoted above and how his writing developed after the Flavians were gone.

But I can appreciate it if you find that too speculative. It just seems the most likely scenario to me.
 
General commentary re: religion

Various religions claim a certain existential model as the definitive truth. If we were presented with 200 existential models each claiming to represent the truth - how would we discern which ones are more likely to be accurate and more representative of the nature of reality, and how would we discern which ones are more likely to be inaccurate and therefore not representative of reality?

I would offer the perspective that if one was sincerely trying to parse through various existential models and discern which are likely to be a more accurate representation - there would be a natural conscious tendency to gravitate towards an existential model or understanding that is universally applicable (can be applied to everyone's situation/perspective), trends towards being just/fair (rather than unjust/unfair), trends towards being rational and making sense (rather than being irrational and nonsensical), etc. In other words, it wouldn't make sense to reason that someone sincerely trying to sort/prase through various existential models would naturally gravitate towards models that trend towards irrational, nonsensical, unfair, and non-universally applicable. I'm suggesting this mindset from the perspective of a person taking an objective look at many different existential options, trying to sort through them, and without any preexisting psychological relationship with what's being considered. Just an objective look at many different existential options - how do you sort through what's what, and what would you naturally gravitate to as more likely to be accurate?

I was raised in a family that made me attend Catholic church up until my teens - however I genuinely didn't connect with what I experienced there, and church felt a lot like being in school to me. The reason why I personally can't get behind any particular religious/theological model is because there will never be a context where every individual having a human experience has had access and exposure to the religion/theology that is being claimed as the truth. Even today there will be billions of individuals all over the world who will never have personal exposure or cultural access to various existential models that are claimed to represent the truth of the matter. And when you move back through the history of human experiences eventually you reach a point where a particular theology ceases to be present socially/culturally - so how can any particular theological-based existential model claim to be universally applicable when there will be billions of examples of human experiences where no one had knowledge of or access to what it claims? If something is perceived to both lack universal application and trend towards unfair/unjust - then I can't bring myself to identify with it on those broad grounds alone (doesn't matter which model is being referenced). This is also why I personally do not feel compelled to have to prove or disprove the claims or characters referenced in various theological texts. I don't feel anyone should have to adopt any specific theology or existential model that cannot be universally applied to everyone's position and perspective.

Anecdotally, when I was in the 9th grade I was reading a world history book for class and I believe on the topic of Lutheranism - but I had a 'light bulb' (epiphany) realization that religious communities (as a whole) were best explained as a psychological relationship or dynamic, because they all shared the belief that their particular theology represents the truth. The understanding that the psychological relationship/dynamic would have to be similar across various religions, broadly speaking. So that realization at that age loosened my bond with religions in the sense of not feeling like I had to adopt one or the other. It influenced me to see theologies across the board in a similar light.

From a sociological perspective, it would interesting to imagine a hypothetical scenario where all the threats of punishment for disbelief/non-adherence were removed or became non-existent. How many individuals would feel free to explore outside of the existential models they formerly identified with if psychologically, there was no longer any burden of perceiving they would be punished or experience a negative outcome when they 'died' if they strayed? I bet there would be a heck of a lot more dialogue and discussion (outside of a theological framework) about existential matters taking place because you would have a lot more players out there in the game. I suspect more individuals would gravitate towards existential models that seem more fair/just, more applicable to everyone's reference point, more sensical/rational, etc.(IMHO)

New to the forum recently but I just want to say I respect mature discussion and individuals having different perspectives involving these matters - the above is my experience and perspective. Cheers.
 
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thx for the post. sorry for the delay.

General commentary re: religion

Various religions claim a certain existential model as the definitive truth. If we were presented with 200 existential models each claiming to represent the truth - how would we discern which ones are more likely to be accurate and more representative of the nature of reality, and how would we discern which ones are more likely to be inaccurate and therefore not representative of reality?

I would offer the perspective that if one was sincerely trying to parse through various existential models and discern which are likely to be a more accurate representation - there would be a natural conscious tendency to gravitate towards an existential model or understanding that is universally applicable (can be applied to everyone's situation/perspective), trends towards being just/fair (rather than unjust/unfair), trends towards being rational and making sense (rather than being irrational and nonsensical), etc. In other words, it wouldn't make sense to reason that someone sincerely trying to sort/prase through various existential models would naturally gravitate towards models that trend towards irrational, nonsensical, unfair, and non-universally applicable. I'm suggesting this mindset from the perspective of a person taking an objective look at many different existential options, trying to sort through them, and without any preexisting psychological relationship with what's being considered. Just an objective look at many different existential options - how do you sort through what's what, and what would you naturally gravitate to as more likely to be accurate?

I was raised in a family that made me attend Catholic church up until my teens - however I genuinely didn't connect with what I experienced there, and church felt a lot like being in school to me. The reason why I personally can't get behind any particular religious/theological model is because there will never be a context where every individual having a human experience has had access and exposure to the religion/theology that is being claimed as the truth. Even today there will be billions of individuals all over the world who will never have personal exposure or cultural access to various existential models that are claimed to represent the truth of the matter. And when you move back through the history of human experiences eventually you reach a point where a particular theology ceases to be present socially/culturally - so how can any particular theological-based existential model claim to be universally applicable when there will be billions of examples of human experiences where no one had knowledge of or access to what it claims? If something is perceived to both lack universal application and trend towards unfair/unjust - then I can't bring myself to identify with it on those broad grounds alone (doesn't matter which model is being referenced). This is also why I personally do not feel compelled to have to prove or disprove the claims or characters referenced in various theological texts. I don't feel anyone should have to adopt any specific theology or existential model that cannot be universally applied to everyone's position and perspective.

Anecdotally, when I was in the 9th grade I was reading a world history book for class and I believe on the topic of Lutheranism - but I had a 'light bulb' (epiphany) realization that religious communities (as a whole) were best explained as a psychological relationship or dynamic, because they all shared the belief that their particular theology represents the truth. The understanding that the psychological relationship/dynamic would have to be similar across various religions, broadly speaking. So that realization at that age loosened my bond with religions in the sense of not feeling like I had to adopt one or the other. It influenced me to see theologies across the board in a similar light.

From a sociological perspective, it would interesting to imagine a hypothetical scenario where all the threats of punishment for disbelief/non-adherence were removed or became non-existent. How many individuals would feel free to explore outside of the existential models they formerly identified with if psychologically, there was no longer any burden of perceiving they would be punished or experience a negative outcome when they 'died' if they strayed? I bet there would be a heck of a lot more dialogue and discussion (outside of a theological framework) about existential matters taking place because you would have a lot more players out there in the game. I suspect more individuals would gravitate towards existential models that seem more fair/just, more applicable to everyone's reference point, more sensical/rational, etc.(IMHO)

New to the forum recently but I just want to say I respect mature discussion and individuals having different perspectives involving these matters - the above is my experience and perspective. Cheers.

Did you have a chance to listen to my interviews with Dr Gregory shushan

Dr. Gregory Shushan, NDEs Vs. Transhumanism |556

https://skeptiko.com/265-dr-gregory-shushan-cross-cultural-comparison-near-death-experiences/

I reference him all the time on the show because he gets us a little bit closer to the " science " behind your point.

so, you have all these different groups/cultures throughout time around the world who are looking for these " existential models " and he finds that they're all driven by near-death experience accounts.

I think that's a pretty Paradigm shattering finding.
 
Did you have a chance to listen to my interviews with Dr Gregory shushan

I did. Shushan's interviews are interesting/intriguing.

and he finds that they're all driven by near-death experience accounts.

I think that's a pretty Paradigm shattering finding.

I could see that. NDE's, and perhaps also the influence of spiritually-transformative experiences that would have been induced via shamanic rituals and the use of entheogenic substances.
 
... also the influence of spiritually-transformative experiences that would have been induced via shamanic rituals and the use of entheogenic substances.

I tend to agree with you. I was just going with what Shushan has said... ie that afterlife beliefs he studied could be traced back to NDE accounts... but if I were going to read between the lines I don't think he was trying to be exclusive in saying that.
 
it would interesting to imagine a hypothetical scenario where all the threats of punishment for disbelief/non-adherence were removed or became non-existent. How many individuals would feel free to explore outside of the existential models they formerly identified with if psychologically, there was no longer any burden of perceiving they would be punished or experience a negative outcome when they 'died' if they strayed?
I think humans are religious beings. We each have our own subconscious ideal for our community and maybe another subconscious ideal for the world at large, we have a set of ways those ideal relate to our perception of either The Infinite, or at least to the Lifespan of The Universe. Then we compare ours with our neighbors and an chaos ensues.
 
I think humans are religious beings. We each have our own subconscious ideal for our community and maybe another subconscious ideal for the world at large, we have a set of ways those ideal relate to our perception of either The Infinite, or at least to the Lifespan of The Universe. Then we compare ours with our neighbors and an chaos ensues.

I can definitely appreciate religious bonding and religious communities from a psychological and sociological perspective - I just wish there were more examples of this occurring in contexts where social shunning is not practiced, and where the shared ideology does not stipulate 'afterlife' threats (or negative outcomes) for disbelief or changing one's beliefs.
 
I tend to agree with you. I was just going with what Shushan has said... ie that afterlife beliefs he studied could be traced back to NDE accounts... but if I were going to read between the lines I don't think he was trying to be exclusive in saying that.

Stan Grof (MD) in some of his writings describes the themes/patterns of the altered, non-ordinary states of consciousness associated with the shamanic rituals induced by various indigenous cultures. Among them, graphic sequences involving death/dismemberment, consciously surviving that ordeal, and then experiencing a type of conscious rebirth as a result. The states/territory here could share similarities with that of experiencing a medical emergency and spontaneous NDE - a very strong conscious perception that one was 'dying' and has 'died'. Another sequence or theme during these shamanic states (if I recall correctly) is one of being isolated/alone, consciously surviving that ordeal, and then again experiencing a type of conscious rebirth as a result. That state/territory could share similarties with individuals during NDE's experiencing what they describe as the 'void'?

I could definitely see the cross-linkage and how these are not neatly divided experiences but rather occur across a spectrum of conscious states and under varying circumstances.
 
I can definitely appreciate religious bonding and religious communities from a psychological and sociological perspective - I just wish there were more examples of this occurring in contexts where social shunning is not practiced, and where the shared ideology does not stipulate 'afterlife' threats (or negative outcomes) for disbelief or changing one's beliefs.
In my opinion this boils down to Tribes and Bandwidth and Outsourcing, and I believe it would not be an issue if masculine men were in leadership. Genuinely masculine men are ok with community members disagreeing. But when men outsource the masculine leadership role to women or feminine men disagreements/differences become detrimental/in-amicable. I believe this has nothing to do with being an aspect of religion, but rather it just happens a lot to religion in modernity, aka society with 2 working parents gone 40 hours a week and kids in school with families that aren’t a community.
If you can’t tell I’ve been listening to a lot of rhetoric on the subject lately. Mostly me parroting ideals I’m currently subscribe/studying into. But I think this goes deep. Like this stuff can be scaled all the way down to a tribe or up to a world society
 
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