What y’all are calling “Consciousness” is 3 things.

#26
There is nothing to say that the journey from the source and the return home should take only a mere lifetime.
Maybe. But I sure seem to have a love/hate relationship with this place! ;)

I hope back home that we retain whatever it was that special about the experience of individuality. Or perhaps it's just gonna be beyond my understanding and whatever happens will just be fine indeed!
 
#27
I like your metaphors but I hold them as just that... metaphors.

For me, the physical brain functions as a transducer.
What if there is no "physical" brain? What if it's just an appearance to human perception of a mental process occuring in universal mind that one labels "the brain"? In that case, the brain needn't be a transducer or, indeed, a cause of anything: it would just be an apparent "object" in our localised (dissociated) consciousness.

Maybe we misunderstand and mislabel "causes". Maybe they are just narratives we spin in order to explain events in the apparently physical world i.e. the way we tend to model what happens in that apparent world, where the dominant narrative is of separate and distinct objects that interact.

That's the way the scientific paradigm has traditionally viewed different phenomena: as interactions between objects composed ultimately of elementary particles. But these elementary particles don't actually exist: even qualified physicists are more and more coming to appreciate that. So the physicalist narrative is shifting somewhat and they talk increasingly in terms of fields rather than elementary particles. It's still a version of materialism, but perhaps marginally less materialistic.

The thing about the word "transducer" is that it presupposes physicalism. It's shorthand for a postulated type of "object" that converts one form of "energy" into another. The very word embodies physicalism, and it's very easy to slip into terminology like this without being fully aware that it itself is just a metaphor -- a way of modelling, according to the physicalist paradigm, what's going on. And to be fair, to some extent it's a useful aspect of interpreting the world that has undeniably enabled us to produce all sorts of technological devices.

But should it, and a thousand other scientific terms (and ultimately, most of not all language, especially since the enlightenment period in Europe), be taken literally? Is the world exactly as our perception makes it appear? Or is that just naive realism in action?
 
#28
Maybe. But I sure seem to have a love/hate relationship with this place! ;)

I hope back home that we retain whatever it was that special about the experience of individuality. Or perhaps it's just gonna be beyond my understanding and whatever happens will just be fine indeed!
YES!!!! and that is why I hold to it all being a choice! I will never accept "what happens to me" being up to some "third party" or "mechanism" or "star directed fate" or, or, or... Yet also... if someone has had enough, why could they not self-annihilate?... essentially be reabsorbed, by will, into the infinite all 'All That Is' which perhaps may all and only be illusion?
 
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#29
YES!!!! and that is why I hold to it all being a choice! I will never accept "what happens to me" being up to some "third party" or "mechanism" or "start directed fate" or, or, or... Yet also... if someone has had enough, why could they not self-annihilate... essentially reabsorbed, by will, into the infinite all 'All That Is' which perhaps may all and only be illusion?
I understand the clinging to individuality, I really do. But who are you Chester? Can you actually answer it? You could tell me where you where born and lived, all the events in your life but that is just a story, that is not you. You are not your memories. You could tell me of your thoughts, but they constantly change, just as your body constantly changes. Your thoughts and body are like a flame, never the same from one moment to the next.

There are ways of knowing that are direct and are within your own experience, this is the first stage, understanding what you are not. It is a half way stage that makes some concessions to the bigger picture. But this is where to start.

Look deep inside and see that everything is happening within your awareness, all of it, including everything you attribute to being you. They are all ideas, concepts, memories, emotions, perceptions. The real you is the witness to all of these objects, it has no edge, no boundaries. You are awareness itself. All of these things are but the contents, the objects. As I mentioned the real you can never be an object. There is only the perceiver and the perceived. Nothing else. (at this stage). Look deeply, that witness was exactly the same as it was when you were a child.

I guarantee if you start to pay attention to this real you, things will begin to change for the better in so many ways.

Lets go further.

The reason there is an objective reality is because we are all sharing the one consciousness. There is no need for the enormous leap of faith to propose something outside of our own experience that can never be verified, that is materialism. Not only is the consciousness view the most parsimonious, it is convergent with our best description of reality in physics!

The world is real and it is an illusion. Illusion does not mean something is not real, it means that it is something other than what it appears to be. There is an objective reality but there is no objective reality outside of consciousness. Or you could say there are no pre existing independent properties before observation. Just as the experiments show.

Consciousness is infinite, timeless and without dimension. There cannot be two, it cannot be divided. You can't divide something that has no form. Form implies finiteness and something other than that form to distinguish it in order to exist. So In order to manifest it must give up it's infiniteness to become both finite subject and object, what is and what isn't. Just as you do in a dream. That is the mechanism and there is no third party. There is no annihilation only realization.

So who are you? You are far more than you are pretending to be!

There is nothing to fear in letting go of the idea of Chester because that is all that he is.
 
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#30
Maybe. But I sure seem to have a love/hate relationship with this place! ;)

I hope back home that we retain whatever it was that special about the experience of individuality. Or perhaps it's just gonna be beyond my understanding and whatever happens will just be fine indeed!
More than fine, liberation! And that experience of individuality would be special yet like a grain of sand on a endless beach.

Still this finite idea is yet to achieve it, so consider it story telling. :)
 
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#31
I am all of those things... ALL... And it's not Chester I have any problem letting go... it is the unnamed stream of individuation I do not want to let go, at this time. That's all. Maybe one day I get tired and dissolve.
 
#32
I am all of those things... ALL... And it's not Chester I have any problem letting go... it is the unnamed stream of individuation I do not want to let go, at this time. That's all. Maybe one day I get tired and dissolve.
I don't think there is any easy way off the samsara merry go round. So you can work on it during life and enjoy what is here in the now while eliminating as much suffering as possible. That's the goal. This stuff is not just for dead people, lucky bastards. ;)

I mean what good is any of it if it can't help with living life?
 
#33
Look deep inside and see that everything is happening within your awareness, all of it, including everything you attribute to being you. They are all ideas, concepts, memories, emotions, perceptions. The real you is the witness to all of these objects, it has no edge, no boundaries. You are awareness itself. All of these things are but the contents, the objects. As I mentioned the real you can never be an object. There is only the perceiver and the perceived. Nothing else. (at this stage). Look deeply, that witness was exactly the same as it was when you were a child.

I guarantee if you start to pay attention to this real you, things will begin to change for the better in so many ways.
Watch this if you have time. I think Rupert Spira agrees with you:

 
#34
Watch this if you have time. I think Rupert Spira agrees with you:
A friend of mine has been teaching me all things Advaita, I mentioned to him how I have been blown away by the level of sophistication and understanding of consciousness that seemed far greater than any concepts I have heard from modern scholars and philosophers on the subject and he pointed me to Rupert, as well as a couple of other teachers.

It was you MIchael who made me realize that it was essentially the same stuff as what Bernado was saying in a different way. It was sort of obvious but it didn't really click until you mentioned it. The difference has been seeing it from a personal point of view over that of a ontological one.

Of course! I'd been trying to essentially reinvent the wheel in a haphazard sort of way when there was no need. So much of it resonated with my own experiences and intuition, it has been a revelation to say the least. It has been like decades of my life have recently converged.
 
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#35
A friend of mine has been teaching me all things Advaita, I mentioned to him how I have been blown away by the level of sophistication and understanding of consciousness that seemed far greater than any concepts I have heard from modern scholars and philosophers on the subject and he pointed me to Rupert, as well as a couple of other teachers.

It was you MIchael who made me realize that it was essentially the same stuff as what Bernado was saying in a different way. It was sort of obvious but it didn't really click until you mentioned it. The difference has been seeing it from a personal point of view over that of a ontological one.

Of course! I'd been trying to essentially reinvent the wheel in a haphazard sort way when there was no need.
I'm really happy I helped you see the connection. Rupert and Bernardo are of course personal friends with, and have obvious respect for, one another. They're absolutely talking essentially about the same thing, albeit from somewhat different perspectives.

Bernardo has the more "scientific" approach if you like, and is even a self-admitted reductionist. That doesn't mean he isn't also intuitive, but maybe not overtly as much as Rupert. I enjoy sampling their different approaches -- they both have keen minds that are sharp as razors. What one doesn't succeed in saying in a way I can quite grasp, the other often can. Together, wittingly or unwittingly, they make for a formidable educational team!
 
#36
Watch this if you have time. I think Rupert Spira agrees with you:

I can see the resemblance to Bernardo's writings, and I find both very hard to learn much from.

I feel the terminology is just too vague and metaphorical (at least in the case of Bernardo) to leave anything in my brain!

Possibly it is like trying to understand QM without any calculus, except that I'm not sure the intermediate level stuff has actually been worked out.

Sorry I am possibly not making much sense myself.

David
 
#39
Lately I have been having quick flashback types of the experiences from the last. In a moment I am transformed and again just lost for words at how simply astonishing it is that I am here in this moment and I am in this apparent world that is so exquisitely bizarre. And it is like WHOAH ! What the fuck is actually going on here? Can you believe this shit? The sea of vision, the sea of noises, smells and sensations. The feeling of gravity, the beating of my heart! What is this place? It is like I just arrived and it is my first time I have opened my eyes.

It is like time just does a little blipp, I am suddenly displaced or something and I'm confronted with most astounding feeling of absolute awe of just the absurdity of this condition. That I am simply here doing what I am doing without knowing how to do it. That I am actually present in this place, holy shit what is this? This feeling is so powerful, and it is really kind of spooky to tell you the truth. It has a real sort of truman show vibe if you catch my drift.

Then I remember all that conditioning and the same old stuff is just again the same old stuff as it has always been. It is like a cloak of ignorance folds back over the world and obscures this incredible unspoken thing that was just a second ago right there in all it's majestic mystery. It's incredible. It sends chills down my spine when my thoughts get even near these sort of, what I think are subconscious triggers connected to experiences I have had in altered states Then in a flash they are suddenly just back from the depths of the abyss and again right in your face, logical mind be dammed. You don't belong here!

The undescriabale presence of a concept that simply cannot exist in this place. Yet there it is and it will not let you grab it by the tail. What the hell was that? And wow! it happened again.

So insanity is still on the table it seems.
 
#40
So insanity is still on the table it seems.
Maybe, but I doubt it. I quite often think about how strange it is to be here -- how I came to be and how right from the get-go I received indoctrination and increasingly accepted it without much questioning as I matured. Kids are so trusting and have to rely on adults to help them make some kind of sense of the world.

Of course, the adults in their turn were indoctrinated, and so their "commonsense" is no less conditioned. It's always been the blind leading the blind, or the sheep leading the sheep if one prefers.

Thing is, some of us may wake up one day and see the situation for what it is. But the years of conditioning can't usually be overcome in one fell swoop. I suspect you're just oscillating increasingly rapidly, but hopefully at some point you'll be able to reconcile the conflicts and find a way to handle life with somewhat more equanimity.
 
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