Whitley Strieber, Jesus Stuff |498|

#21
I was interested in opinion of the shroud of Turin that played such a prominent role in the book and the contrary notion that the miracles were either placebo (which means what - unexplained) or the miracles were added later. Seems one would accept both or neither if one were inclined to have beliefs.

My other scary thought is: Will the current 'authorities' do something with the ET presence and disclosure similar to Constantine's group: either spinning them as gods or demons for control and the right to do as they please?
 
#22
wow... great. so what do you make of it all today? demon? what would that even mean? Jesus as our spiritual bodyguard? maybe, but how would that actually work? ( not saying that you're saying just wanting to know what you think)

And what do you make of please personal/ spiritual transformation over the years?
I don't know exactly what happened with my mother reading the bible in her room, and when she told the Alien to "leave in the name of Jesus." She said it just shut the door and left. Who knows, maybe it went to my room instead. My mother was a formidable woman.

I only know that I was completely fascinated with anything "Alien." I was annoyed by the fact that she waited until I did my book report on "Transformation" to tell me about this exciting shit!

I honestly, to this day, do not know what to make of those circumstances. It was only later in life, when I started dealing with what people call "apparitions" that I was actually afraid. The Alien thing did frighten me as a kid, but the reality of what exists in other dimensions didn't hit me until I was in my 20's.
 
#24
demon? what would that even mean?
Well, considering dear Mrs Thinker was a Christian, demon would signify a malevolent spirit. St. Augustine clarified this, defining angels as spirits, with the term 'angel' signifying their office/rank/function.

With the way some of the 'aliens' behave, I'd say malevolent spirit (interdimensional or otherwise) is as good a working title as any.
 
#25
I'm sure alert listeners will have noticed the parallels between Josephus' back story/self-mythologizing and both the Jesus of the Synoptic Gospels and Paul. I am referring of course to Jesus pwning and out-Jewing the Jewish scholars in the Temple after going missing from his family (Luke 2:41-52). If Josephus is involved, is this perhaps the earliest known Mary Sue story?

As for Paul there are his claims to be a "Hebrew of Hebrews," or as Alex would say, a super-Jew. Also like Josephus, Paul displays an astonishing ignorance/misunderstanding of Jewish law and lore for someone making such lofty claims. This is laid out in detail in Hyam Maccoby's The Mythmaker.

By the way, I am curious what Strieber had to say in his book, but I guess I will have to go elsewhere for that or actually read it.
It's an easy read. Not saying I came away totally awed. ;-) but it isn't ponderous and the Shroud of Turn discussion alone might be worth a podcast interview.
 
#26
This was a cluster of a discussion...I couldn't even finish it. I don't really understand the point of it tbh. It seems like the discussion of Jesus on here usually gets so emotional that it becomes unbearable. shame
 
#28
wow... great. so what do you make of it all today? demon? what would that even mean? Jesus as our spiritual bodyguard? maybe, but how would that actually work? ( not saying that you're saying just wanting to know what you think)

And what do you make of please personal/ spiritual transformation over the years?
I had to touch back on this subject matter because of the idiocy heard on Sam Tripoli's podcast, "Tin Foil Hat," episode #440 with Joseph Jordan. First of all, I love Tripoli's podcast. That is how I found out about Skeptiko. Also, Alex, you are awesome in episode #441 of "Tin Foil Hat," great listen!

Now let us get into the meat of the matter. For the longest time, I have heard Christians say that there are no aliens, only "powers and principalities," or some other kind of nonsensical description of any kind of unusual circumstance that supposedly should drive one toward "God's word," which is always, unquestionably unquestionable, the Bible.

Honestly, I don't know if my Mom really saw an alien open her bedroom door as she was reading the Bible, then tell it to "leave in the name of Jesus," then it subsequently left. She told me that this happened. I believe that she saw something, because she was terrified when telling me the story. Also, it is confirmed that my father drew this creature by her description, then burned this drawing when the neighbors became involved in this "visitation" problem where we grew up. They believed the house needed to be "cleansed" of this "evil" energy. Also, they claim that these same creatures showed up later, during prayer, but left soon after, seen out the bay window of the house.

Nevertheless, I certainly am not Christian, nor have I ever felt like the idea of Christianity is attractive to me. I feel compelled to describe, in detail, why Christianity feels like a dirty, unflushed, public toilet, to me. First and foremost, the idea of a God needing to send his Son to earth, to be beaten, then crucified by idiots, somehow redeems them if they accept that this is what saves them, MAKES NO FUCKING SENSE AT ALL TO ME!

Even when I was five years old, I knew this made absolutely no sense at all. That story, by itself, should be highly questionable. It sounds like the initiation rights into a straight up cult! Often, when speaking of MK-ultra or any of these other crazy experiments, they are about creating some kind of extreme trauma to disassociate one's psyche from one's self. What could be more disassociating than believing that God sends his son to be beaten, tortured, and killed by a bunch of crazy assholes.......and if you don't believe this happened, you will not have eternal life? Also, you must believe these things happened to God's son or this God is going to forget about you and make you burn eternally? What kind of God does these things? How does this making any sense at all?

Let us get back to this "God's word" nonsense. If it is written down, in a book, internet page, or even inscribed on a rock.....it is no longer God's word. When I hear about people saying "how lost" they were before they found some book, then I can see this is somebody who has never practiced any kind of reasonable introspection. Also, descriptions as to why God created the devil make absolutely no sense at all. The stupidest excuse of all is that "God didn't want to create us as robots, and he wanted to give us a choice."

What kind of a megalomaniac, lunatic God says: hey, existence is bliss and perfect, but I need to create a creature called the devil that is eternally damned. Also, I am going to create one book where you can learn about this shit, along with a son that needs to be tortured and killed by idiots that follow this devil that I created, but I will resurrect him. Also, you need to believe in all this dumb shit without question or I will damn you. If anybody asks why I came up with all this crazy nonsense, tell them that this is the only way that I could have given people free will. So, you can choose to be on my side, or you can pick all these fucking booby traps that I set up.......and if you pick the traps, then that was your free will. If I didn't set it up this way, then I would have just been creating robots.

Granted, this is a perspective. Maybe the Alien did leave my Mom's room in the name of Jesus, and possessed me, making me a demon from hell. At least, I am allowing all the Christians to believe such a thing so that they can keep their faith without question.
 
#29
great stuff. I had not made this connection... but now that you pointed it out it does seem rather obvious. this is very joe atwill-esque :)

==
What does Philippians 3:5 mean? [⇑ See verse text ⇑]
Verses 5 and 6 provide a list of seven important traits found in Paul's life as a devout Jew. His reason for listing these is to prove that he, of all people, has the right to comment on the futility of works. Paul is not claiming salvation by faith as an escape attempt. His message is not an excuse for personal failure—that he cannot, or will not, meet some requirement of the Old Testament law. On the contrary, Paul has fulfilled it better than those who criticize him for preaching saving faith!

Paul's birth and ancestry were impeccable, according to Jewish standards. Paul had been circumcised on the eighth day. His parents did this in accordance with God's command given to Abraham (Genesis 17:12). Paul was truly, naturally, of the "people of Israel." In other words, he was born Jewish rather than being a convert to Judaism. Specifically, he was from the tribe of Benjamin.
===
Philippians 3:5, NLT: "I was circumcised when I was eight days old. I am a pure-blooded citizen of Israel and a member of the tribe of Benjamin--a real Hebrew if there ever was one! I was a member of the Pharisees, who demand the strictest obedience to the Jewish law."
==

also:

Maccoby considered Paul's claims to an orthodox Pharisaic Jewish education to be false, asserting that while many of Paul's writings sound authentic to the uninitiated, they actually betray an ignorance of the original Hebrew scripture and the subtleties of Jewish Law.[6] Maccoby claimed that an examination of the New Testament indicates that Paul knew no Hebrew at all, and relied entirely on Greek texts that no actual Pharisee would ever use because they were not properly translated from the Hebrew originals.

According to Maccoby, Paul fused the historical story of Jesus' crucifixion with elements of contemporary mystery religions and Gnosticism, developing such new non-Judaic mythic ideas as the Trinity and the Last Supper. Paul also made an attempt to find prophetic justification for his newly created myth in the Old Testament. Paul came to present Jesus as a dying and rising saviour deity similar to those from the Hellenistic mystery cults, fused with the historical pedigree of Judaism, thus giving birth to a powerful new myth whose preaching gained him a large following. As the Jerusalem group of the original disciples of Jesus gradually became aware of Paul's teachings, bitter hostility ensued between them.

Maccoby interpreted certain New Testament passages (for example Paul's account of his quarrel with Peter in the Incident at Antioch) as remnants of authentic accounts of this hostility. However, the Jewish Rebellion of 66–70 soon brought a violent end to the Jerusalem sect, and the Gentile Church founded by Paul emerged as the winner by default. Maccoby viewed the Book of Acts as a later attempt by the Pauline Church to present the relations between Paul and the Jerusalem disciples as harmonious, thus presenting the Pauline Church as legitimised by the chain of apostolic succession reaching back to the original disciples of Jesus. Maccoby also conjectured that the Jewish-Christian sect of Ebionites may have been an authentic offshoot of the original Jerusalem community.
Goodness Alex, you must be marinated in the Bible to be able to write stuff like that. Have you taken up biblical scholarship?

David
 
#30
saw an alien open her bedroom door as she was reading the Bible, then tell it to "leave in the name of Jesus," then it subsequently left. She told me that this happened. I believe that she saw something, because she was terrified when telling me the story.
Consider is possible that the word/name "Jesus" is just code for an eternal infinite good in the astral plane that probably existed before the big bang.
If that jives then it would just be a shame to let the governments and religions own it. Especially if you can expel scary beings just by yelling it at them.
 

Alex

Administrator
#31
First and foremost, the idea of a God needing to send his Son to earth, to be beaten, then crucified by idiots, somehow redeems them if they accept that this is what saves them, MAKES NO FUCKING SENSE AT ALL TO ME!
such a great point... I just heard this again the other day and was dumbstruck... I mean how many times have I heard this and it never really sunk in. conspiracy in plain sight :)

the deeper I get into this christian stuff the more interesting it is. how is this level of mind control possible? not just among members of the cult, but of all the bystanders... and even the critics. I mean, were told that the counter hypothesis is science... let me know what's up with that :)

what are the implications for everything we think we know about how our culture works?
 
#32
I had to touch back on this subject matter because of the idiocy heard on Sam Tripoli's podcast, "Tin Foil Hat," episode #440 with Joseph Jordan. First of all, I love Tripoli's podcast. That is how I found out about Skeptiko. Also, Alex, you are awesome in episode #441 of "Tin Foil Hat," great listen!

Now let us get into the meat of the matter. For the longest time, I have heard Christians say that there are no aliens, only "powers and principalities," or some other kind of nonsensical description of any kind of unusual circumstance that supposedly should drive one toward "God's word," which is always, unquestionably unquestionable, the Bible.

Honestly, I don't know if my Mom really saw an alien open her bedroom door as she was reading the Bible, then tell it to "leave in the name of Jesus," then it subsequently left. She told me that this happened. I believe that she saw something, because she was terrified when telling me the story. Also, it is confirmed that my father drew this creature by her description, then burned this drawing when the neighbors became involved in this "visitation" problem where we grew up. They believed the house needed to be "cleansed" of this "evil" energy. Also, they claim that these same creatures showed up later, during prayer, but left soon after, seen out the bay window of the house.

Nevertheless, I certainly am not Christian, nor have I ever felt like the idea of Christianity is attractive to me. I feel compelled to describe, in detail, why Christianity feels like a dirty, unflushed, public toilet, to me. First and foremost, the idea of a God needing to send his Son to earth, to be beaten, then crucified by idiots, somehow redeems them if they accept that this is what saves them, MAKES NO FUCKING SENSE AT ALL TO ME!

Even when I was five years old, I knew this made absolutely no sense at all. That story, by itself, should be highly questionable. It sounds like the initiation rights into a straight up cult! Often, when speaking of MK-ultra or any of these other crazy experiments, they are about creating some kind of extreme trauma to disassociate one's psyche from one's self. What could be more disassociating than believing that God sends his son to be beaten, tortured, and killed by a bunch of crazy assholes.......and if you don't believe this happened, you will not have eternal life? Also, you must believe these things happened to God's son or this God is going to forget about you and make you burn eternally? What kind of God does these things? How does this making any sense at all?

Let us get back to this "God's word" nonsense. If it is written down, in a book, internet page, or even inscribed on a rock.....it is no longer God's word. When I hear about people saying "how lost" they were before they found some book, then I can see this is somebody who has never practiced any kind of reasonable introspection. Also, descriptions as to why God created the devil make absolutely no sense at all. The stupidest excuse of all is that "God didn't want to create us as robots, and he wanted to give us a choice."

What kind of a megalomaniac, lunatic God says: hey, existence is bliss and perfect, but I need to create a creature called the devil that is eternally damned. Also, I am going to create one book where you can learn about this shit, along with a son that needs to be tortured and killed by idiots that follow this devil that I created, but I will resurrect him. Also, you need to believe in all this dumb shit without question or I will damn you. If anybody asks why I came up with all this crazy nonsense, tell them that this is the only way that I could have given people free will. So, you can choose to be on my side, or you can pick all these fucking booby traps that I set up.......and if you pick the traps, then that was your free will. If I didn't set it up this way, then I would have just been creating robots.

Granted, this is a perspective. Maybe the Alien did leave my Mom's room in the name of Jesus, and possessed me, making me a demon from hell. At least, I am allowing all the Christians to believe such a thing so that they can keep their faith without question.
"I have heard Christians say that there are no aliens, only "powers and principalities," '

Isn't the bible said to come from Sumerian texts which also say the creators were alien? Or is that just woo.
 
#33
not exactly how I would say it, but in any case we would still need to begin with facts about the historical jesus... and facts about roman social engineering by way of religion.
Compelling talk, never a dull moment with Alex...a few mental notes ; Streiber mentioned that in those days the truth was not strictly adhered to. There was no writing at all at that time that would constitute a factaul recordings of true events.
Willaim Ramsays observation that you're basically saying that since Josephus worked for Romans and plundered the truth, redirected it, hence all the books of the bible must be false, or to that effect. That's a big leap, in my book . To the extant that Jesus didn't exist at all. Not being knowledgable on the subject i can't argue the point..but to be honest it strikes as personal bias at work. Of course Jesus existed.
 
#34
"I have heard Christians say that there are no aliens, only "powers and principalities," '

Isn't the bible said to come from Sumerian texts which also say the creators were alien? Or is that just woo.
Most Catholics don't believe that; by the way, what wizzzzz kid religion or spirituality do you follow?
 
#35
Most Catholics don't believe that; by the way, what wizzzzz kid religion or spirituality do you follow?
My mother was a Theosophist and took me to meetings from age 10. At the same time I went through confirmation as a Anglican.
The deal was, if I became confirmed, which means confirming and accepting your faith, I could then reject it if I wanted to.
So that's what I did.
The Theosophy has stayed with me, I'm open to anything but not really a believer in anything
I think that it likely that love is the fundamental thing and that evil worshippers are narcissists who have more work to do
I come nearest to believing that NDE's prove an afterlife. I've seen a ghost and a UFO -
 
#36
Most Catholics don't believe that; by the way, what wizzzzz kid religion or spirituality do you follow?
By the way what is it that most Catholics don't believe, only "powers and principalities," or 'Sumerian texts mention aliens'
If the latter, I was given to understand that a keeper of the texts lost his job because he got too deep into translation - was sacked when he came up with the alien story
 
#38
Consider is possible that the word/name "Jesus" is just code for an eternal infinite good in the astral plane that probably existed before the big bang.
If that jives then it would just be a shame to let the governments and religions own it. Especially if you can expel scary beings just by yelling it at them.
That is one way of looking at it. The other way is that the "being/alien" realized that this person has already been duped and mind controlled by the nonsense of Christianity, so no need for an abduction here! Thank you, Jesus, for helping to create disassociated identity disorder in people for the last 2000 years!
 
#39
such a great point... I just heard this again the other day and was dumbstruck... I mean how many times have I heard this and it never really sunk in. conspiracy in plain sight :)

the deeper I get into this christian stuff the more interesting it is. how is this level of mind control possible? not just among members of the cult, but of all the bystanders... and even the critics. I mean, were told that the counter hypothesis is science... let me know what's up with that :)

what are the implications for everything we think we know about how our culture works?
Exactly! The truth is that we don't know exactly why or how our culture works because people typically don't want to ask these kind of questions. Also, people quickly cling to stereotypical, common ground when confronted with strange circumstances. For example, let us say the situation with the "Alien," or whatever it was, Demon, as my Mom would call it, was true. Supposedly she is laying and bed, reading the bible, and this thing opens the door. Next, she says, "I command you to leave in the name of Jesus!"

Subsequently, it leaves the room. The "common sense," stupid Christian reaction would be this: That was a demon from hell and Jesus got rid of it. However, what if that thing was planning on doing an abduction with a good mind warp procedure, but instead telepathically said to the mother ship, "Yo guys, this lady is already mind warped from our previous campaign, no need for abduction here. She fully believes that God raped a married woman, and had His illegitimate son beat to death by a bunch of crazy assholes 30 years after that woman gave birth to him. Also, this lady is convinced that she, along with the rest of humanity, are a bunch of no good sinners that must believe a just God behaves this way, or they all go to hell. In fact, she believes it makes sense for a God to put his son through this kind of thing. Furthermore, her mind is so twisted by Christianity that she can't even tell that this story is absolutely crazy! Also, if we don't abduct her, then we will reinforce her bullshit belief system that we created in the first place, and she will reinforce this nonsense in all her friends and family as well! SHE WILL DO THE WORK FOR US! In the mean time, lets go abduct that kid in the other room.....he thinks too much!"

The counter hypothesis certainly isn't science. I would argue that Christianity method of thinking is similar to modern science. Both have a rule by consensus modality on the surface, but if you look deeper it is really a crowd control modality via propaganda. Maybe that is not the appropriate description. Simply put, they don't want you to question their dogmas. That is the surface observation. However, if you look deeper, these are camps of people that are afraid to think for themselves.

This is not even a deep enough vivisection of both idiocies, Christianity and Science(capital "S" neceSSary). In truth, so many people are afraid to challenge their own thoughts. Not in regards to just the outright stupidity that is Christianity or any other major religion, but also Science! They read the book and just go along with any of the nonsense!

Once again, any of you Christians out there, feel free to answer: How does it make sense to you that a God impregnates a married woman, then has that Son tortured to death because all of you are garbage sinners, then says, "Hey, if you don't believe this is justice in the way that this has happened, then you are all going to hell."????

Also, for all you thinkers out there, what is more MK-Ultra than to pull this story off on nearly the entire world, and get them to believe it?
 
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#40
Exactly! The truth is that we don't know exactly why or how our culture works because people typically don't want to ask these kind of questions. Also, people quickly cling to stereotypical, common ground when confronted with strange circumstances. For example, let us say the situation with the "Alien," or whatever it was, Demon, as my Mom would call it, was true. Supposedly she is laying and bed, reading the bible, and this thing opens the door. Next, she says, "I command you to leave in the name of Jesus!"

Subsequently, it leaves the room. The "common sense," stupid Christian reaction would be this: That was a demon from hell and Jesus got rid of it. However, what if that thing was planning on doing an abduction with a good mind warp procedure, but instead telepathically said to the mother ship, "Yo guys, this lady is already mind warped from our previous campaign, no need for abduction here. She fully believes that God raped a married woman, and had His illegitimate son beat to death by a bunch of crazy assholes 30 years after that woman gave birth to him. Also, this lady is convinced that she, along with the rest of humanity, are a bunch of no good sinners that must believe a just God behaves this way, or they all go to hell. In fact, she believes it makes sense for a God to put his son through this kind of thing. Furthermore, her mind is so twisted by Christianity that she can't even tell that this story is absolutely crazy! Also, if we don't abduct her, then we will reinforce her bullshit belief system that we created in the first place, and she will reinforce this nonsense in all her friends and family as well! SHE WILL DO THE WORK FOR US! In the mean time, lets go abduct that kid in the other room.....he thinks too much!"

The counter hypothesis certainly isn't science. I would argue that Christianity method of thinking is similar to modern science. Both have a rule by consensus modality on the surface, but if you look deeper it is really a crowd control modality via propaganda. Maybe that is not the appropriate description. Simply put, they don't want you to question their dogmas. That is the surface observation. However, if you look deeper, these are camps of people that are afraid to think for themselves.

This is not even a deep enough vivisection of both idiocies, Christianity and Science(capital "S" neceSSary). In truth, so many people are afraid to challenge their own thoughts. Not in regards to just the outright stupidity that is Christianity or any other major religion, but also Science! They read the book and just go along with any of the nonsense!

Once again, any of you Christians out there, feel free to answer: How does it make sense to you that a God impregnates a married woman, then has that Son tortured to death because all of you are garbage sinners, then says, "Hey, if you don't believe this is justice in the way that this has happened, then you are all going to hell."????

Also, for all you thinkers out there, what is more MK-Ultra than to pull this story off on nearly the entire world, and get them to believe it?
What I'm hearing here is that man got/gets duped into New testament Christianity.
Man works in symbol , thoses symbols carry the meaning. Star Wars with the Evil darth vader and the good man Star Walker aligned with the force , these caracters coencide with ideas that are held metaphysically and are expressed in the story. The story to me is pretty stupid yet to many they relate. ...Was any body being duped here?
Christianity took hold because it represent(ed) Metaphysical ideas and dilemmas. The actually facts (was Jesus nailed to a cross? i think not), don't matter.
It should be obvious the Mind of man will create stories that are going to express what what is going on inside , again who's being fooled. i guess we could say -- if we confuse symbols with the emotional/ intellectual reality with actually what's behind them...and by the way this Alien theory falls into this category as well.
As long as there's a psyche /mind/ reality we are going to write stories because that's what we do.
 
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