William Ramsey, Lawyering Christianity |497|

#2
I would have been a little more socratic about it myself, but Alex's frontal assault did the job. Not that I don't feel for Ramsey; I've been there myself. Alex was actually a little too easy on him in some ways. For example, what is "Bible-based Christianity?" On one hand, what Protestant Christian would claim not to be "Bible based?" And if William is proudly wearing the label of Christian, who is giving him the right to basically excommunicate every single other person who also claimed that label over the last two millennia? Second, the whole idea of the Bible being the basis of Christianity is severely flawed. Where did the Bible come from? Even if you aren't accepting the Roman Josephus thing, and I remain agnostic on that, the Christian Church decided what the Bible was and what made the cut. This is illustrated beautifully by the fact that the canon is not the same across all denominations of Christianity. So if WR is claiming to be "biblically based," which Bible? Is it the one decided on by the Western (Catholic, by the way) Church? Lucky for him he just happened to be born in the West so he had the right scriptures! I kept waiting for him to come out with "It's not a religion, it's a relationship!"

It also made me angry that WR would not in the end defend his own BS. He conceded just about every substantive point Alex made, but without really conceding. That tells me he knows that he himself is full of it, but is unwilling to take the next logical step.

Let's also note that there are serious questions about the historicity of St. Paul himself. Check out Robert M. Price on that. Jesus too, but personally I think there had to be some living historical figure to whom all the lore became attached, and ultimately it doesn't matter anyway. Whether historical or not, Jesus (or Christ Consciousness, if you want) has been kicking ass and taking names for 2,000 years, and is very, very real where it counts.
 
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#3
What if...
Jesus was a human spiritual anomaly similar to how Beethoven was a musical anomaly, born without all the normal obstacles that get in the way of that type of perfection.

If so..
In the same way that we can't currently explain how Wim Hof can perform bodily miracles of cold exposure, perhaps Jesus' miracles were just unexplainable human anomaly events in the realm of spirituality. i.e: 5 loaves and 2 fish might be able to feed 1000 people if they're a in an unspeakable spiritual place which cant be explained as a result of witnessing a spiritual anomaly ( the same way any human would react if they were allowed to be present to watch Beethoven's in the act of conjuring his seemingly superhuman creations).

Of course..
If this were the case, historians of all sorts would force it into the archetype of the perfect human, because that's what humans do!!! we put thing in little boxes!!

Does this mean Jesus wasn't godly? NO

Does this mean the bible is false? YES and NO....

Yes, if we expect an anomaly to suddenly inspire humans to miraculously forever thereafter keep an historical event exempt from any bias whatsoever (which has never happened before).

No, if we take a deep breath and see all spiritual recordings as works of humans, and not expect a miracle to remove the humanity from us.


Even if we all agree on this, we would still retain our nature toward bias, because we're still human and we want to be right, even when trying to tell a heavenly story.
 

Alex

Administrator
#4
Second, the whole idea of the Bible being the basis of Christianity is severely flawed. Where did the Bible come from? Even if you aren't accepting the Roman Josephus thing, and I remain agnostic on that, the Christian Church decided what the Bible was and what made the cut.
agreed... and I'm getting there (haha, yes more interviews on this topic I'm afraid :)) but I think the line from Josephus to "Saint" Constantine is more direct than I originally thought.



Let's also note that there are serious questions about the historicity of St. Paul himself. Check out Robert M. Price on that.
nice. I gotta revisit

has been kicking ass and taking names for 2,000 years, and is very, very real where it counts.
I think I'm totally with you on this... but can you elaborate a bit.
 

Alex

Administrator
#5
What if...
Jesus was a human spiritual anomaly similar to how Beethoven was a musical anomaly, born without all the normal obstacles that get in the way of that type of perfection.
first off, this is a great, new, original angle thanks very much for that.

So, I'm down with the potential reality of that... my point is that before we can get there we have to answer your other question

Does this mean the bible is false? YES and NO....
we have to learn from our mistakes. we don't want to charge headlong into a john of god marina abramovic situation

Q&A with Brazilian journalist whose investigation put an ...
 
#6
first off, this is a great, new, original angle thanks very much for that.

So, I'm down with the potential reality of that... my point is that before we can get there we have to answer your other question



we have to learn from our mistakes. we don't want to charge headlong into a john of god marina abramovic situation

Q&A with Brazilian journalist whose investigation put an ...
A brilliant response, of course. And set me back a day to think about it.
I read the article and I think I'm clear on the vibe, to the tune of 'How do we know Jesus wasn't a John of God type, who's story the governments hijacked same as they always do?'

The second analogy I'd like to pitch is the archetype of Jesus being like a song. We all recognize it.. So much so that if we're jacked up on a good one and recognize a piece of it in ourselves, we might wonder or even claim to be it, or to represent it. Another great example is how common it is to hear people say "real or not, he's the best example of blah blah blah.."
To quote Jordan Peterson "Christ by definition is the best a man can be". Jordan has put a lot of focus on the story being the ultimate display of sacrifice.

I want go from the opposite of your approach(pointing to the unreliability of the record).
I say that the bibles' description of Jesus is the closest example we have to that archetype lived out in a story. And to be clear: I'm not suggesting this warrants a leap to believing the archetype actually took human form 2000 years ago.

I'm saying that because of how well Jesus story resembles the song(or archetype) this affords a decent chance there was a person 2000 years ago who (perhaps even remotely) exemplified it. And regardless of what the governments, religions, and society went on to do with the story, the song is still the same.

If the archetype lived, I would imagine it would only strive to point us to the archetype (the song itself), rather than to a paper trail.
 

Alex

Administrator
#7
'How do we know Jesus wasn't a John of God type, who's story the governments hijacked same as they always do?'
and even if we didn't take it that far... and I wouldn't, because I don't think we have any reason to believe was jesus was doing bad/evil things... but I'm just saying I think we need to go the extra mile re getting the story straight... or at least understanding how far evil will go... which is one potential element of getting the story straight.

The second analogy I'd like to pitch is the archetype of Jesus being like a song. We all recognize it.. So much so that if we're jacked up on a good one and recognize a piece of it in ourselves, we might wonder or even claim to be it, or to represent it. Another great example is how common it is to hear people say "real or not, he's the best example of blah blah blah.."
To quote Jordan Peterson "Christ by definition is the best a man can be". Jordan has put a lot of focus on the story being the ultimate display of sacrifice.
I completely agree. I think this is a version of the collective consciousness aspect of it... which is far as I can tell seems very real. so the fact that millions and millions of people have focused all this positive loving energy into jesus would mean to me that there's probably a really good chance that he's a very potent spiritual entity. and I say that without really understanding what it means, but at the same time acknowledging that it seems to be what the data is telling us.


I want go from the opposite of your approach(pointing to the unreliability of the record).
I say that the bibles' description of Jesus is the closest example we have to that archetype lived out in a story. And to be clear: I'm not suggesting this warrants a leap to believing the archetype actually took human form 2000 years ago.
great point. I got to say I never totally thought of it that way. if I'm hearing you right you're almost arguing that from a literary perspective this story is a remarkably fantastic representation of the archetype... to the point of making one wonder if it is divinely-inspired. I don't know the bible well enough to say but I'm down with the idea. I've felt that way about other books.
 
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#8
I got to say I never totally thought of it that way.
Me neither! This episode set a stage for me to do some battle with my conceptions of the topic in order to formulate a worthy explanation, or at least nothing level 1. Par for the course as it relates to the quality of the show and your method of inquiry. I'm so glad to have found show and now the forums too, and looking forward to more.
 
#9
I would have been a little more socratic about it myself, but Alex's frontal assault did the job. Not that I don't feel for Ramsey; I've been there myself. Alex was actually a little too easy on him in some ways. For example, what is "Bible-based Christianity?" On one hand, what Protestant Christian would claim not to be "Bible based?" And if William is proudly wearing the label of Christian, who is giving him the right to basically excommunicate every single other person who also claimed that label over the last two millennia? Second, the whole idea of the Bible being the basis of Christianity is severely flawed. Where did the Bible come from? Even if you aren't accepting the Roman Josephus thing, and I remain agnostic on that, the Christian Church decided what the Bible was and what made the cut. This is illustrated beautifully by the fact that the canon is not the same across all denominations of Christianity. So if WR is claiming to be "biblically based," which Bible? Is it the one decided on by the Western (Catholic, by the way) Church? Lucky for him he just happened to be born in the West so he had the right scriptures! I kept waiting for him to come out with "It's not a religion, it's a relationship!"

It also made me angry that WR would not in the end defend his own BS. He conceded just about every substantive point Alex made, but without really conceding. That tells me he knows that he himself is full of it, but is unwilling to take the next logical step.

Let's also note that there are serious questions about the historicity of St. Paul himself. Check out Robert M. Price on that. Jesus too, but personally I think there had to be some living historical figure to whom all the lore became attached, and ultimately it doesn't matter anyway. Whether historical or not, Jesus (or Christ Consciousness, if you want) has been kicking ass and taking names for 2,000 years, and is very, very real where it counts.
You hit practically every point about the Bible & Christianity that I wanted to highlight, so thanks for saving me the time & energy. There's a German scholar whose name escapes me at the moment who has done a lot of research into the Gospel of St. Thomas. That is where the cult of J.C. probably started, so that freak St. Peder(ast) saw a great story he could twist to his purposes. Strangely enough, the Bible I was brought up w/ left in all these odd, mystical insights, such as 'If thy eye be single, then thy mind shall be full of Light.' What da Hell?? Anyway, I kept expecting WR to get hot around the collar, but like you said he's probably well aware of the extensive wackiness of Bible & any other kind of Christianity, so why waste the energy?
 
#10
The issue with Christianity, and this even seems to by systemic in William Ramsey's work, is that it needs evil to make itself a remedy. Regardless, does evil exist and are you capable of evil? YES! To me, this is self evident. Who knows, maybe this isn't self evident to most people. Perhaps some delude themselves as "the good." What I have found is that people who pick a well known religion lack the capacity and/or desire to question anything deeply about their religion. I really don't care who Josephus is; nor do I care if he was a shill or telling the truth. Some might interpret that as a mindset not thinking deeply. However, I take the practical perspective, and all real depth is empirical in nature: I was raised a Christian, read the bible a lot, attended church constantly, and yet, even when I was a little kid, it made no sense to me. The historical birth of the what lead to this modern day nonsense is inconsequential to me. It is impossible to get to the bottom of it. An attempt to look into it is akin to violently flailing your limbs in quicksand. Perhaps this is why Nietzsche said that he deals with all worldly problems like a cold bath, quickly in, and quickly out.

Granted, there are several "Christians" on this forum that I have respect for as thinking human beings. I have learned to not judge people by the religion they choose to support. I don't like religions, but think of this in terms of people supporting their favorite sports team. There are a lot of sports, and a lot of teams. There are also a lot of people saying stupid shit like "WE WON!" when their favorite team gets a victory. Furthermore, they are often dressed to look just like that sports team. I don't think that this makes them bad people, as life can be a pretty mundane, shit scenario without something more to hope for beyond that "WE WON!"
 
#11
What if...
Jesus was a human spiritual anomaly similar to how Beethoven was a musical anomaly, born without all the normal obstacles that get in the way of that type of perfection.

If so..
In the same way that we can't currently explain how Wim Hof can perform bodily miracles of cold exposure, perhaps Jesus' miracles were just unexplainable human anomaly events in the realm of spirituality. i.e: 5 loaves and 2 fish might be able to feed 1000 people if they're a in an unspeakable spiritual place which cant be explained as a result of witnessing a spiritual anomaly ( the same way any human would react if they were allowed to be present to watch Beethoven's in the act of conjuring his seemingly superhuman creations).

Of course..
If this were the case, historians of all sorts would force it into the archetype of the perfect human, because that's what humans do!!! we put thing in little boxes!!

Does this mean Jesus wasn't godly? NO

Does this mean the bible is false? YES and NO....

Yes, if we expect an anomaly to suddenly inspire humans to miraculously forever thereafter keep an historical event exempt from any bias whatsoever (which has never happened before).

No, if we take a deep breath and see all spiritual recordings as works of humans, and not expect a miracle to remove the humanity from us.


Even if we all agree on this, we would still retain our nature toward bias, because we're still human and we want to be right, even when trying to tell a heavenly story.
About 1988 or thereabouts, I went to a presentation in Chico, California, by Rolling Thunder, a Black Foot & Cherokee medicine man who was drumming up business for his intentional community in the desert. Doug Boyd wrote a great book about him, BTW. Rolling Thunder had 3 Indians w/ him who beat the drum, chanted, & burned sage & other herbs during breaks in the talking. He taught several Indian chants, told stories about his desert home, his experiences, and so on. At the end, I looked at my watch & gasped! Four hours?? It seemed like maybe 45 minutes b/c I never left my chair & I normally can't sit that long. Maybe he burned some peyote buttons w/ the sage?
My point is that there are lots of ways to alter consciousness w/o doing anything very fancy, especially if people are in a receptive mood. As much as I found regrettably human failings in Swami Kriyananda, some of his sermons, which were rare while I was at Ananda, absolutely left everyone barely touching the ground as they left the temple.
 
#12
About 1988 or thereabouts, I went to a presentation in Chico, California, by Rolling Thunder, a Black Foot & Cherokee medicine man who was drumming up business for his intentional community in the desert. Doug Boyd wrote a great book about him, BTW. Rolling Thunder had 3 Indians w/ him who beat the drum, chanted, & burned sage & other herbs during breaks in the talking. He taught several Indian chants, told stories about his desert home, his experiences, and so on. At the end, I looked at my watch & gasped! Four hours?? It seemed like maybe 45 minutes b/c I never left my chair & I normally can't sit that long. Maybe he burned some peyote buttons w/ the sage?
My point is that there are lots of ways to alter consciousness w/o doing anything very fancy, especially if people are in a receptive mood. As much as I found regrettably human failings in Swami Kriyananda, some of his sermons, which were rare while I was at Ananda, absolutely left everyone barely touching the ground as they left the temple.
Time is something that can freeze when you focus on it. Also, time is something that can flow when you are surfing on it. Likewise, we can see all humans as failing if we focus on that, or all humans as triumph, if we focus on that. Nevertheless, there will be failings and triumphs. There shall be good and evil.
 

Alex

Administrator
#13
The issue with Christianity, and this even seems to by systemic in William Ramsey's work, is that it needs evil to make itself a remedy.
yeah but as you pointed out below, evil does seem to exist. moreover, william ramsay seems to have done us all a favor regarding setting the record straight with the evil-ness of the west memphis three. I mean, I don't know why johnny depp and damien echols start being so deceptive but I'm glad that william drew our attention to the facts of the case.


The historical birth of the what lead to this modern day nonsense is inconsequential to me.
fair enough, but unrelated to...

It is impossible to get to the bottom of it.
 
#14
yeah but as you pointed out below, evil does seem to exist. moreover, william ramsay seems to have done us all a favor regarding setting the record straight with the evil-ness of the west memphis three. I mean, I don't know why johnny depp and damien echols start being so deceptive but I'm glad that william drew our attention to the facts of the case.




fair enough, but unrelated to...
Let me put it this way, If William Ramsey didn't have the "West Memphis Three," or Johnny Depp and Damien Echols to write about, then who the fuck is he?
 
#15
Actually, I wasn't clear enough. These are murky waters, but let us clarify. Believing in "Christ Consciousness" but not accepting the tirade of bullshit that is any religion, is like saying, " I believe in Easter Bunny eggs, but I don't believe chickens laid them."
 
#16
I should clarify my previous points out of my respect of Alex's work. Why is it that we pay homage, endlessly, to the religions that grew out of the middle east? It doesn't matter what religion it is: Jew, Christian, Muslim.....fundamentally these are all of the same origin with the same kind of prophets and stories. Why must we capitulate to this world dominating nonsense constantly? We can't even enter into spiritual archives without attaching some kind of backdoor reverence to these shit belief systems. For me, the term "Christ Consciousness" is equivalent to saying, "OK, I give up, can't fight them anymore, got to meet these assholes halfway."

Also, what the fuck kind of an active mind, when questioned, has only a reply that it is "Bible based"? Why be "Bible based"? Ask that guy why he is "Bible Based"? How does that make any sense?

It doesn't matter what industry that I could be working in. If my techniques were not effective, and I told somebody, "Hey man, that is the way the book told me to do it, so I must be right!" - Then I would be considered a fucking idiot. However, when it comes to religion, this is considered commendable all the time! Be "Bible Based" is a dressed up excuse for not wanting to think deeply for yourself.

These "Bible Based" people have no explanation for why they are that way beyond the rhetorical phrase they cling to. Certainly, I don't think "Satanism" is a solution. That is "Bible Based" as well. I think that "Satanism" and "Christianity" mutually support each other.
 

Alex

Administrator
#17
I should clarify my previous points out of my respect of Alex's work. Why is it that we pay homage, endlessly, to the religions that grew out of the middle east? It doesn't matter what religion it is: Jew, Christian, Muslim.....fundamentally these are all of the same origin with the same kind of prophets and stories. Why must we capitulate to this world dominating nonsense constantly? We can't even enter into spiritual archives without attaching some kind of backdoor reverence to these shit belief systems. For me, the term "Christ Consciousness" is equivalent to saying, "OK, I give up, can't fight them anymore, got to meet these assholes halfway."

Also, what the fuck kind of an active mind, when questioned, has only a reply that it is "Bible based"? Why be "Bible based"? Ask that guy why he is "Bible Based"? How does that make any sense?

It doesn't matter what industry that I could be working in. If my techniques were not effective, and I told somebody, "Hey man, that is the way the book told me to do it, so I must be right!" - Then I would be considered a fucking idiot. However, when it comes to religion, this is considered commendable all the time! Be "Bible Based" is a dressed up excuse for not wanting to think deeply for yourself.

These "Bible Based" people have no explanation for why they are that way beyond the rhetorical phrase they cling to. Certainly, I don't think "Satanism" is a solution. That is "Bible Based" as well. I think that "Satanism" and "Christianity" mutually support each other.
haha... William is a really sharp guy and I have a lot of respect for him... but yr point about Bible-based is spot on :)
 
#18
It seems your the one who always has to bring these point up with regards to religion and Christ. Do you have enough intelligence do do a proper interview?
 
#20
haha... William is a really sharp guy and I have a lot of respect for him... but yr point about Bible-based is spot on :)
Thanks Alex. To me, this is glaringly obvious, but to many, many people, it seems indiscernible. I don't think that we should have a blind reverence for Christianity just because people remain stolidly in faith of it. Also, I am not trying to "pick on" Christians, this goes for any systemic belief system, "religion," or whatever claims to be beyond question. Your line of inquiry is incredibly unique and I am happy to see it continue. I am sure that William is a sharp guy. However, the explanation of "bible based" is limiting and without intellectual consciousness.
 
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