William Ramsey, Lawyering Christianity |497|

I don't like religions, but think of this in terms of people supporting their favorite sports team. There are a lot of sports, and a lot of teams. There are also a lot of people saying stupid shit like "WE WON!" when their favorite team gets a victory. Furthermore, they are often dressed to look just like that sports team. I don't think that this makes them bad people, as life can be a pretty mundane, shit scenario without something more to hope for beyond that "WE WON!"
We can't even enter into spiritual archives without attaching some kind of backdoor reverence to these shit belief systems.
It doesn't matter what industry that I could be working in. If my techniques were not effective, and I told somebody, "Hey man, that is the way the book told me to do it, so I must be right!" - Then I would be considered a fucking idiot. However, when it comes to religion, this is considered commendable all the time! Be "Bible Based" is a dressed up excuse for not wanting to think deeply for yourself.

What techniques regarding Christianity, Islam, etc. are you talking about? And what qualifies them as shit belief systems?

Anyway, to the point at hand, when I hear 'Bible based' I think of evangelical Protestantism and their focus on literalism and common-sense interpretation. This is a relatively new development in Christianity, being not much more than a few hundred years old. Of course, all of Christianity is 'Bible based' but the norm is not literalism but rather an interpretive paradigm that goes beyond a surface reading and reaches toward higher analogical levels of meaning.

A good example of the above is Gregory of Nyssa's (c. 332-395) exposition of the Moses narrative. Here, Moses's three encounters with God (the burning bush, in a cloud atop a mountain, and seeing God's back as he [Moses] hides in a ditch) are seen as outlining a process of spiritual unfoldment. First, one begins by turning away from ignorance, seeing the absolutely objective within the relatively subjective (the light in the burning bush). One then moves beyond images, sense perception, and the ability to know, returning to ignorance (meeting God in the cloud), before finally realising the endlessness of the spiritual journey (seeing God's back).

So, traditionally, the reading of scripture enters into a dynamic relationship with practice (prayer, fasting, right action, etc.) and thus forms a path of spiritual unfoldment.

And I wouldn't want to exclude evangelical Protestants, either. If one were to read and meditate on scripture, then pray, that would certainly count as a contemplative and discursive practice.

How is this the same as supporting a sports team?

Of course you get bad religion in the same way as you get bad science. But misuse does not invalidate use, and one should try not turn examples (or even many examples) of bad practice into a universal law.

Honestly, I see most contemporary and novel Western spiritualities as deriving from either denatured Eastern non-dualism, nihilism, masonic individualism, and or the rotting corpse of Theosophy. Christianity, Judaism and Islam strike me as being no worse than any of the preceding.
 
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What techniques regarding Christianity, Islam, etc. are you talking about? And what qualifies them as shit belief systems?

Anyway, to the point at hand, when I hear 'Bible based' I think of evangelical Protestantism and their focus on literalism and common-sense interpretation. This is a relatively new development in Christianity, being not much more than a few hundred years old. Of course, all of Christianity is 'Bible based' but the norm is not literalism but rather an interpretive paradigm that goes beyond a surface reading and reaches toward higher analogical levels of meaning.

A good example of the above is Gregory of Nyssa's (c. 332-395) exposition of the Moses narrative. Here, Moses's three encounters with God (the burning bush, in a cloud atop a mountain, and seeing God's back as he [Moses] hides in a ditch) are seen as outlining a process of spiritual unfoldment. First, one begins by turning away from ignorance, seeing the absolutely objective within the relatively subjective (the light in the burning bush). One then moves beyond images, sense perception, and the ability to know, returning to ignorance (meeting God in the cloud), before finally realising the endlessness of the spiritual journey (seeing God's back).

So, traditionally, the reading of scripture enters into a dynamic relationship with practice (prayer, fasting, right action, etc.) and thus forms a path of spiritual unfoldment.

And I wouldn't want to exclude evangelical Protestants, either. If one were to read and meditate on scripture, then pray, that would certainly count as a contemplative and discursive practice.

How is this the same as supporting a sports team?

Of course you get bad religion in the same way as you get bad science. But misuse does not invalidate use, and one should try not turn examples (or even many examples) of bad practice into a universal law.

Honestly, I see most contemporary and novel Western spiritualities as deriving from either denatured Eastern non-dualism, nihilism, masonic individualism, and or the rotting corpse of Theosophy. Christianity, Judaism and Islam strike me as being no worse than any of the preceding.

Thanks for the thorough reply, my friend. Please, let me simplify: anything is a shit belief system that tells you "this is the only way," then creates several Churches and so forth to control people, especially by means of a book or any other form of media. I know, that is a quick definition of "shit belief system," but it is practical. I don't want to confuse "shit belief system" with shit people, as there are many good people participating in "shit belief systems."

Furthermore, being that I am a poet, I can appreciate analogy in the way an artist can appreciate an interesting painting. However, I don't buy into this "interpretive paradigm" for the infinite propaganda that is any Bible. Also, I am not going to call the pages of any bible "scripture," they are just words in a book. The world is so entirely hellbent on justifying the octo-fold arms of nonsense developing out of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam that it cannot even see its own ass. First, we are told that it is literal. Next, we are told that it is all analogy with some deep nonsensical meaning that we have to somehow create because the bullshit is too far fetched. What is really going on is that we are trying to drive old propaganda into our new narrative, and we are using the excuse of "analogy" as the comforting delivery device.

However, lets return to "prayer and fasting." Do you need a bible for prayer and fasting? I find it ironic how "evil" many people consider the television to be, but how "good" it is to read a book. Books are just another form of media that may have less characters trying to sell you other things behind them.....but that isn't necessarily true all the time.
 
"... Shit belief systems ... ?" So do unto other as you would have done to you and love your neighbor as yourself is shit?? Such a comment betrays a lack of historical knowledge. You don't think cultures benefited overall by religion? How do you think we're doing in the west now that we're so secular?
 
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For me, the term "Christ Consciousness" is equivalent to saying, "OK, I give up, can't fight them anymore, got to meet these assholes halfway."

Re: "Christ consciousness"
With genuine love I'd like to inform you that If you can't separate the idea/thing from the humans who are parroting about it, that's on you. You've expressed being offended by the people, not the idea. I think t would be more interesting to hear you pick apart the idea/thing.

It doesn't matter what industry that I could be working in. If my techniques were not effective, and I told somebody, "Hey man, that is the way the book told me to do it, so I must be right!" - Then I would be considered a fucking idiot. However, when it comes to religion, this is considered commendable all the time! Be "Bible Based" is a dressed up excuse for not wanting to think deeply for yourself.

So.. any true inspiration should result in the perfection of humanity, and anything less means the inspiration was false and shouldn't have been recorded??
What about the accounts from NDE's? Isn't it obvious that religious people are here on earth to experience being just as shitty if not shittier than secular people?
 
Thanks Alex. To me, this is glaringly obvious, but to many, many people, it seems indiscernible. I don't think that we should have a blind reverence for Christianity just because people remain stolidly in faith of it. Also, I am not trying to "pick on" Christians, this goes for any systemic belief system, "religion," or whatever claims to be beyond question. Your line of inquiry is incredibly unique and I am happy to see it continue. I am sure that William is a sharp guy. However, the explanation of "bible based" is limiting and without intellectual consciousness.

Oh my, you're such a fcking genius!
 
I should clarify my previous points out of my respect of Alex's work. Why is it that we pay homage, endlessly, to the religions that grew out of the middle east? It doesn't matter what religion it is: Jew, Christian, Muslim.....fundamentally these are all of the same origin with the same kind of prophets and stories. Why must we capitulate to this world dominating nonsense constantly? We can't even enter into spiritual archives without attaching some kind of backdoor reverence to these shit belief systems. For me, the term "Christ Consciousness" is equivalent to saying, "OK, I give up, can't fight them anymore, got to meet these assholes halfway."

Also, what the fuck kind of an active mind, when questioned, has only a reply that it is "Bible based"? Why be "Bible based"? Ask that guy why he is "Bible Based"? How does that make any sense?

It doesn't matter what industry that I could be working in. If my techniques were not effective, and I told somebody, "Hey man, that is the way the book told me to do it, so I must be right!" - Then I would be considered a fucking idiot. However, when it comes to religion, this is considered commendable all the time! Be "Bible Based" is a dressed up excuse for not wanting to think deeply for yourself.

These "Bible Based" people have no explanation for why they are that way beyond the rhetorical phrase they cling to. Certainly, I don't think "Satanism" is a solution. That is "Bible Based" as well. I think that "Satanism" and "Christianity" mutually support each other.
I, for one, I'm respectful or tend to take a demure approach to religious ppl. simply b/c the unbalanced ones can be dangerous & it's hard sometimes to tell a reasonable one from a disturbed one. There's also this cock-eyed thing about religious sensibilities get a pass. What BS! If you're wrong, bigoted, brutal, or psychotic, that doesn't rate tolerance just b/c a perverted priest taught you the pope was infallible, for instance. There ought to be some mechanism to make the 'Big Three' & any other metastasized, bloated religious organization to rein in their extremist elements at least. Collar your violent, lunatic fringe elements or the general public will come after you. It's worked well to get money out of the catholic church for some of the extensive mayhem for which they're responsible. Look at the Far Right Christian presence at the Capitol Siege. It's past time to call the religious out for their viciousness, callousness, & arrogance.
 
Re: "Christ consciousness"
With genuine love I'd like to inform you that If you can't separate the idea/thing from the humans who are parroting about it, that's on you. You've expressed being offended by the people, not the idea.
I agree. to me, it's also worthwhile to recognize that there is a genuine mystery/problem here. I mean, there does seem to be this extended consciousness realm... and there do seem to be a lot of encounters with this figure we would identify as Jesus. so, I don't know what to call this other than christ consciousness. I don't think we can just brush aside the data.

Even the most trad christian is less wrong then your run-of-the-mill atheist :)
 
Look at the Far Right Christian presence at the Capitol Siege.
Come on mate, it was hardly an inquisition. The only person who was killed was an unarmed woman and Trump supporter who was shot by cop. It was a largely peaceful demonstration of people, who were rightly pissed off at a imo stolen election, that got out of hand by a minority largely due to agent provocateurs (which has pretty much been proven) and a imo purposefully negligent security set up. Call out religious extremism where it's present but i think in this case you have got it very wrong
 
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Thanks for the thorough reply, my friend. Please, let me simplify: anything is a shit belief system that tells you "this is the only way," then creates several Churches and so forth to control people, especially by means of a book or any other form of media. I know, that is a quick definition of "shit belief system," but it is practical. I don't want to confuse "shit belief system" with shit people, as there are many good people participating in "shit belief systems."

Furthermore, being that I am a poet, I can appreciate analogy in the way an artist can appreciate an interesting painting. However, I don't buy into this "interpretive paradigm" for the infinite propaganda that is any Bible. Also, I am not going to call the pages of any bible "scripture," they are just words in a book. The world is so entirely hellbent on justifying the octo-fold arms of nonsense developing out of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam that it cannot even see its own ass. First, we are told that it is literal. Next, we are told that it is all analogy with some deep nonsensical meaning that we have to somehow create because the bullshit is too far fetched. What is really going on is that we are trying to drive old propaganda into our new narrative, and we are using the excuse of "analogy" as the comforting delivery device.

However, lets return to "prayer and fasting." Do you need a bible for prayer and fasting? I find it ironic how "evil" many people consider the television to be, but how "good" it is to read a book. Books are just another form of media that may have less characters trying to sell you other things behind them.....but that isn't necessarily true all the time.

A poet? Ah, well, then there's no use trying to talk some sense into you. Still, I'll try. My point is that our ancestors were far more subtle, grown up and intelligent than we sometimes give them credit for. Thus the analogical interpretation of holy books is the traditional one and not a contemporary invention to put a gloss on fantastical bullshit. In fact, the fundamentalists are the modernists. Also, the analogical works of Christianity cease to be nonsensical when you see them for what they are: texts of spiritual experience and practice. As for exclusivism, I don't like it either, but their is a strong universalist bent in Christianity that dates back to the 2nd century. So there is that.
 
I, for one, I'm respectful or tend to take a demure approach to religious ppl. simply b/c the unbalanced ones can be dangerous & it's hard sometimes to tell a reasonable one from a disturbed one. There's also this cock-eyed thing about religious sensibilities get a pass. What BS! If you're wrong, bigoted, brutal, or psychotic, that doesn't rate tolerance just b/c a perverted priest taught you the pope was infallible, for instance. There ought to be some mechanism to make the 'Big Three' & any other metastasized, bloated religious organization to rein in their extremist elements at least. Collar your violent, lunatic fringe elements or the general public will come after you. It's worked well to get money out of the catholic church for some of the extensive mayhem for which they're responsible. Look at the Far Right Christian presence at the Capitol Siege. It's past time to call the religious out for their viciousness, callousness, & arrogance.

I know, there's such an air of intolerance around religious folk.
 
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"... Shit belief systems ... ?" So do unto other as you would have done to you and love your neighbor as yourself is shit?? Such a comment betrays a lack of historical knowledge. You don't think cultures benefited overall by religion? How do you think we're doing in the west now that we're so secular?

You make a good point considering love and how we should treat our neighbors, but, on the contrary, my comment proves why those belief systems are shit belief systems because of precisely how their institutions behaved historically. Also, what specifically is a "culture" and how does that benefit by religion? By that argument, you can also say that "cultures" have benefited significantly off of fear and torture. If secular means "without religion," then certainly the west is not without a religion. This is the most religious and controlled all of mankind has ever been via a stupid apparatus called "social media."
 
A poet? Ah, well, then there's no use trying to talk some sense into you. Still, I'll try. My point is that our ancestors were far more subtle, grown up and intelligent than we sometimes give them credit for. Thus the analogical interpretation of holy books is the traditional one and not a contemporary invention to put a gloss on fantastical bullshit. In fact, the fundamentalists are the modernists. Also, the analogical works of Christianity cease to be nonsensical when you see them for what they are: texts of spiritual experience and practice. As for exclusivism, I don't like it either, but their is a strong universalist bent in Christianity that dates back to the 2nd century. So there is that.

Not that it matters, but by trade I am not a poet. Rather, a mundane inspector of ammunition supplies. Poetry is a spiritual practice to me. As far as talking sense into me goes: nobody will ever be able to talk sense into me, including you, my friend. I am not the type of person that gets talked into anything. Actually, that isn't true, you can talk me into fried calamari and fresh beer pretty easily. However, I will certainly lend a listen to a fellow thinker. If I am right, fine. If you are right, all the better, as I will have learned something.

As far as the analogical/metaphorical interpretation of holy books and so forth goes, well, you certainly don't need to talk me into that nonsense. Let me provide an example as to why, though.

Let us just say a centipede walks across my wall, and I say that it had a lot of legs and moved quickly. These "religious metaphor/analogy" people tell me that the centipede represents mankind's struggle against demonic forces that forced a race of serpents to become cursed as insects. Those serpents were having sex with the daughters of men before they were told to walk with too many legs. The number of legs represent the 30 active tribes on earth at the time of the great flood. Furthermore, if you don't go to my building to talk about this nonsense, and read my book, you are fucked up in the head.

Yeah, I know, that sounds crass and to the point, but this is the only way to get across to people who are so heavily invested in this quagmire of "Oh, you aren't getting the religion because it is really a metaphorical/analogical description of how you should live your life, not to be taken literally at all!"

Wow, we can apply this theory to any number of bullshit belief systems and validate all of them!
 
Come on mate, it was hardly an inquisition. The only person who was killed was an unarmed woman and Trump supporter who was shot by cop. It was a largely peaceful demonstration of people, who were rightly pissed off at a imo stolen election, that got out of hand by a minority largely due to agent provocateurs (which has pretty much been proven) and a imo purposefully negligent security set up. Call out religious extremism where it's present but i think in this case you have got it very wrong
Did you forget about the policeman whose head was crushed in by a blow from a fire extinguisher? I admit sometimes suicides blamed on a siege by fascist extremists who sought to hang V.P. Pence & chased elected officials might be a bit of a stretch, but I think it fits the sedition incited by Trumpelled Foreskin, the most repulsive excuse for a contemporary public figure I have ever come across. It really shocks me when otherwise reasonable people minimize such a frightening attack on a free & fair election & its certification. It was a largely peaceful demonstration? Hanging ropes suspended from raised platforms. Smashed windows, rowdy miscreants wiping feces on the walls. You are kidding me when you say "Stop the Steal" had any basis in fact? My lord, that walking bag of garbage was hollering fraud far in advance of the election since he knew his kind of mental illness was finally recognized & he had no chance to be re-elected. Good riddance to Emperor Narcissus the Last!
 
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