William Ramsey, Lawyering Christianity |497|

[ShaneTheThinker]

Re: "Christ consciousness"
With genuine love I'd like to inform you that If you can't separate the idea/thing from the humans who are parroting about it, that's on you. You've expressed being offended by the people, not the idea. I think t would be more interesting to hear you pick apart the idea/thing.



So.. any true inspiration should result in the perfection of humanity, and anything less means the inspiration was false and shouldn't have been recorded??
What about the accounts from NDE's? Isn't it obvious that religious people are here on earth to experience being just as shitty if not shittier than secular people?

First of all, thank you for the thought provoking response, and you have my mind reeling as it should be. By force of habit, I would say that "parroting" is a normal behavior amongst most people. Basically, just repeating what they have already heard because it keeps ones feet planted squarely on the ground. That being said, I think it is intellectual thievery to separate ideas from the humans that came up with them. Granted, there are a lot of inventions over time, so this isn't easy, but we must give credit where credit is due if possible. Maybe that is the only true reverence to the Gods.

Regardless, let us dissect this idea of "Christ Consciousness." My issue with capitulating to any "well known" religion concerning beings/apparitions, in any kind of "near death experience," is that doing so makes something deep become as shallow as a mirage of water on a desert road. Rather, it is worse. It makes us continue to pay a toll to those running a bridge one inch above the land, whereas we do not need a bridge. If you are your own savior, then you don't need another "Christ." The issue with this "Christ Consciousness" idea is that it surrenders to elements of popular religion in the same way that many scientists researching "psi" surrender to backdoor materialism.

Also, I think that the bible is far less inspirational, and way less related to anything of or from God, than a notebook from somebody on a personal journey. Rather, why would you need your inspiration from any kind of mass media, social media, bible, or otherwise? If you try to separate ideas from the humans that are practicing them, then you might as well have this "grocery store" mentality that doesn't understand that fruit grows on trees, meat is cut out of animals, and that paper towels come from trees.

 

[Kim]

Come on mate, it was hardly an inquisition. The only person who was killed was an unarmed woman and Trump supporter who was shot by cop. It was a largely peaceful demonstration of people, who were rightly pissed off at a imo stolen election, that got out of hand by a minority largely due to agent provocateurs (which has pretty much been proven) and a imo purposefully negligent security set up. Call out religious extremism where it's present but i think in this case you have got it very wrong

I don't want to obsess about the connection between Dumpy Trump & Far Right Christianity, but I think it's blindingly clear. You do know he's the first president who openly came out in direct support of the Right to Lifers? I can't think of a more reactionary, scummy mind control group hiding behind J.C. What about FullofShitacus gassing & forcibly ejecting peaceful protestors from the area around a church near the White House so he could hold up a Bible in front of it for a photo opportunity? I assume it was a Bible, but since that dork never read the intelligence briefings, even when they were summarized for him, maybe it was a Koran. My point is for whom was he was waving the Bible?

 

[ShaneTheThinker]

I don't want to obsess about the connection between Dumpy Trump & Far Right Christianity, but I think it's blindingly clear. You do know he's the first president who openly came out in direct support of the Right to Lifers? I can't think of a more reactionary, scummy mind control group hiding behind J.C. What about FullofShitacus gassing & forcibly ejecting peaceful protestors from the area around a church near the White House so he could hold up a Bible in front of it for a photo opportunity? I assume it was a Bible, but since that dork never read the intelligence briefings, even when they were summarized for him, maybe it was a Koran. My point is for whom was he was waving the Bible?

What is the problem with the "right to lifers?" Wait, does that have something to do with sex? I find it fascinating about how much the government not only wants its "hands" in our sex lives, but also its dick in our minds. In reality, there is no government or "ideas detached from people," but rather people wanting, trying to enslave one another.

I think that the sex thing, which is ridiculously trivial, is artificially amplified to keep our minds off of the real problems.

What is a "right to lifer?" Is this kind of person any better than a "right to an anti-lifer?"

 

[LoneShaman]

@ Shane.

Hi mate, from reading your posts I thought you might appreciate this. Give it a little time till it gets to the part that I think will resonate with you. Although I could have misjudged of course. I'm not pushing a dogma, quite the opposite. I think you'll see what I mean.

 

[Robbedigital]

I think it is intellectual thievery to separate ideas from the humans that came up with them.

Suppose we knew the name of the caveman who "invented" the firepit, and he named it after a mythical creature, and he went on to be a horrible person. would we forever thereafter be triggered by firepits, forced to relate them to a mythical creature.

My point is, "Christ consciousness" if it exists, may have been around longer than humanity for all we know.
That said, if you have criticisms of it, scrutiny of it, or perhaps a better name for it, I'd be interested. But whatever it is, I don't think any Christian person or group deserves to claim it, or to be accredited for anything about it.

 

[dpdownsouth]

ok, so that's what "Bible-based" means to you.

Nah, when I hear 'bible based' I think evangelical protestant, literalism and reading religious texts in the same way you might read a popular novel. Not that I think evangelical protestants can't be spiritual people too, obviously.

 

[dpdownsouth]

Not that it matters, but by trade I am not a poet.

Being a true amateur (as opposed to being amateurish) is a beautiful thing.

These "religious metaphor/analogy" people tell me that the centipede represents mankind's struggle against demonic forces that forced a race of serpents to become cursed as insects. Those serpents were having sex with the daughters of men before they were told to walk with too many legs. The number of legs represent the 30 active tribes on earth at the time of the great flood. Furthermore, if you don't go to my building to talk about this nonsense, and read my book, you are fucked up in the head.

Yeah, I know, that sounds crass and to the point, but this is the only way to get across to people who are so heavily invested in this quagmire of "Oh, you aren't getting the religion because it is really a metaphorical/analogical description of how you should live your life, not to be taken literally at all!"

What Bible are you reading? Honestly, seeming as you're a poet, I'd have hoped you'd show more respect for a work that lies beneath almost 2000 years worth of art and culture. So, as you can tell, I'm not impressed with your example. I think our points of reference are different. This probably dooms us to continue talking past each other.

I would only add that my loyalty to Christianity (and I haven't always been this way) is down to a few of things. First, I honour the fact that our ancestors found worth in it (well, mine did, I'm not sure of your ethnicity or background). Here I am particularly impressed by the way in which my Celtic forefathers converted en masse without threat or duress. Second, I don't automatically assume that current spiritual or religious fashions are superior to that which came before. Third, I judge a religion on it's ability to produce what I would call holy people (or saints, if you will). Lastly, the Christian existential and metaphysical paradigm is the closest match I've found to the one and only mystical (as opposed to paranormal or spiritual) experience I've had. (In case you're wondering, no, I didn't see Jesus.)

Y'know, I don't really get Zen Buddhism, but I refuse to turn my failure into a universal law!

And that's it. :)

 

[LoneShaman]

I always thought of Christ consciousness as a state of consciousness where the self dissolves into the all. So nothing to do with religious dogma or any particular icon such as the persona of Christ, but the transcendent oneness that is found in many traditions.

Admittedly this was just my interpretation when hearing this term and haven't bothered to see whether there is a agreed definition.

Personally I feel spirituality should not be shackled to any concept, dogma or possible entity, that the means is inward and preexisting. Meaning it is not out there somewhere waiting to be found or discovered. It doesn't lay in the past or in temples institutions or in books.

We already have what is sought, it is more a matter of unlearning the things that keep it obscured I think. You can see how such things as religion and politics brings out the worst in us. These are the sort of things, (attitudes) we need to let go of. when you do its OK to entertain them and even learn from them.

 

[lubis1991]

Let me put it this way, If William Ramsey didn't have the "West Memphis Three," or Johnny Depp and Damien Echols to write about, then who the fuck is he?

I have to say that I tried to read WR's book about the West Memphis Three, and I wasn't impressed. I've got to remain agnostic about that as well. One thing: people who posit the WM3's guilt always bring up the fact that the guilty verdict was not vacated, if that is the correct term. But there were a few things going on there, and it tries my credulity a bit to imagine that they would release people that they legitimately thought committed this depraved and senseless crime because Bono or whoever scowled at them. And if they are using it to rehabilitate the whole Satanic thing, I have to say "Check, please!" because the fuckery behind most of it is well known and well documented.

 

[Alex]

I have to say that I tried to read WR's book about the West Memphis Three, and I wasn't impressed.

Really???

http://www.westmemphisthreefacts.com/
FACT - JESSIE MISSKELLEY CONFESSED NUMEROUS TIMES:
The Paradise Lost and West of Memphis documentaries and the book and movie Devil's Knot completely leave out the fact Jessie Misskelley confessed to the murders numerous times both before and after he was convicted.

May 6, 1993: The morning after the murders, Jessie's friend, Buddy Lucas, stopped by Jessie's house. Buddy said Jessie told him he "hurt" some boys in West Memphis the night before. He then broke out in sweat, cried, and gave Buddy a used pair of sneakers (presumably the ones he wore to the crime scene).
http://callahan.mysite.com/wm3/b_lucas_interview.html

June 3, 1993: With consent from his father, Jessie was taken to the West Memphis Police Department for questioning. He was being questioned because he was a known friend of Damien Echols, who was a suspect in the murders. With additional written permission from his father, he was read his Miranda rights and given a polygraph exam, which he reportedly failed. The documentaries imply that Jessie was interrogated for 12 hours before confessing. That is a lie. Jessie arrived at that police station at 10:00am and confessed at 2:20pm. Only 2 1/2 hours of that time was spent in actual interrogation...

June 7, 1993: Jessie's own family members believed he could have been involved with the murders. Jessie Misskelley Sr. was interviewed by KAIT-TV just days after his son's arrest. On camera, Jessie Sr. admitted Jessie Jr. may have been with Echols and Baldwin at the crime scene.

Reporter: "Was he with them?"
Misskelley Sr: "He could have been with them, but he didn't have anything to do with it I don't believe."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KRtEdkoun1s&feature=youtube_gdata_player
http://callahan.mysite.com/wm3/jessiemsr.html

June 11, 1993: Many recent reports suggest Jessie immediately recanted. He did not. He confessed again to his own attorneys eight days later.
http://wm3truth.com/2012/04/jessie-misskelleys-confession-to-defense-lawyer-june-11-1993/

August 19, 1993: Jessie Misskelley met with his attorney, Dan Stidham, at the Clay County Detention Center and gave a statement that continued to confirm his guilt.
http://callahan.mysite.com/wm3/jm_stidham_8_19_93.html
http://callahan.mysite.com/pdf/jm_stidham_8_19_93.pdf

February 4, 1994: On the day he was sentenced to life plus 40 years for the murders, he got in a police car and confessed to the officers all the way to prison.
http://callahan.mysite.com/wm3/jmpc.html

February 8, 1994: He put his hand on a Bible and swore to his attorney (Dan Stidham) that he, Damien, and Jason committed the murders.

 

[Raimo]

I always thought of Christ consciousness as a state of consciousness where the self dissolves into the all. So nothing to do with religious dogma or any particular icon such as the persona of Christ, but the transcendent oneness that is found in many traditions.

In other words, it is annihilation.

Transcendent oneness is nothing but religious dogma.

 

[1-2 Steps off Monkey]

In other words, it is annihilation.

Transcendent oneness is nothing but religious dogma.

Huh?

 

[dpdownsouth]

In other words, it is annihilation.

Transcendent oneness is nothing but religious dogma.

Yes. I think you've touched on something quite important here. Namely that those who see themselves as being free of religious thinking and dogma are often operating under all sorts of strange religious or quasi-religious ideas. And dogma is at its most dangerous when it is unacknowledged.

 

[LoneShaman]

In other words, it is annihilation.

Transcendent oneness is nothing but religious dogma.

Annihilation of the egoic self.
It is an experience not dogma.

 

[1-2 Steps off Monkey]

In other words, it is annihilation.

Transcendent oneness is nothing but religious dogma.

I see what you mean now. To be honest when i saw the green avatar i thought you might be this imo weird dude that posts at Skeptiko sometimes. Mistaken identity :) Having read some of your previous posts you are nothing like him from what i can see. Sorry about that
I would agree that we will always be individuals, i think forever striving to increase our oneness and potency in/with truth/reality. I would also argue that in order to be any kind of being (in this lifetime and future lifetimes) it will and can only ever be in an organic form which includes a dreamstate. The dreamstate can never be seperated from the organic imo hence no such thing imo as spirit beings, ghosts etc. Tricky stuff though :)

 

[Kim]

What is the problem with the "right to lifers?" Wait, does that have something to do with sex? I find it fascinating about how much the government not only wants its "hands" in our sex lives, but also its dick in our minds. In reality, there is no government or "ideas detached from people," but rather people wanting, trying to enslave one another.

I think that the sex thing, which is ridiculously trivial, is artificially amplified to keep our minds off of the real problems.

What is a "right to lifer?" Is this kind of person any better than a "right to an anti-lifer?"

I guess it depends on your position re: reproductive rights; are you a pro-life versus pro-choice person? I really hate the way the anti-abortion people have framed this issue as if pro-choice is anti-life & they're pro-life. As the old joke goes, it's amazing what a difference a few years of life makes. Pro-life supporters are often for the death penalty.
You also made a good point about distracting from real issues. I can't think of a more basic human right than the ability to determine if you want a child or not, yet it's seems a debate that just won't go away. To put it another way, if men got pregnant, there'd be abortion clinics on every street corner.
Speaking of Christian extremists, my wife & I met a filipino man while we were waiting for a flight at the airport. He was a devout catholic like the majority of filipinos & after he found out I am an American, he shifted the conversation to abortion rights & the evil of killings babies. I would have liked to explore how any reasonable person would deny a woman's control over her own body, but I could sense he was spoiling for an argument. Since he was going to be on the same plane as we were, I just couldn't imagine flying w/ a huffy goofball who might end up nursing a grudge against us, so I let him run through all that pro-life non-sense & stayed silent when he finally finished.

 

[1-2 Steps off Monkey]

Annihilations of the egoic self.
It is an experience not Dogma.

Hi mate,
Agreed if by egoic self you mean misconceptions of the real self. Would you say that we keep our individuality as we become more one with truth? Imo we do

 

[Kim]

Hi mate,
Agreed if by egoic self you mean misconceptions of the real self. Would you say that we keep our individuality as we become more one with truth? Imo we do

I'm not sure why this sticks w/ me, but there was a NDE account on the web by a man named Andy; I'm sorry, but I can't remember his last name. At any rate, he described how he was in the presence of god, the Supreme Being, etc., which was like a thousand welding torches all burning at the same time & then he found himself in the center of this massive bubble that was composed of all these sub-units of an incredible number. All the souls or whatever you wish to call them then told him, "We love you, Andy!" I think this supports that our individuality is a lasting thing. The Many as One.
One of the astounding things about Andy's account was the sheer, unvarnished look of awe & wonder on his face as he recalled it. If he had made up that experience, then he'd need an Oscar for Greatest Imitation of an Awestruck Person.

 

[LoneShaman]

Hi mate,
Agreed if by egoic self you mean misconceptions of the real self. Would you say that we keep our individuality as we become more one with truth? Imo we do

I think you nailed it with misconceptions of the real self. The real self is that part of you that is observing your own thoughts at this very moment but it is not the thinking itself.

Many people fear the destruction of identity. It really is just an illusion, a mask. Its the ego protecting itself. It is not the same as the true self. There is nothing to fear when it goes. It is liberation.

 

[1-2 Steps off Monkey]

I'm not sure why this sticks w/ me, but there was a NDE account on the web by a man named Andy; I'm sorry, but I can't remember his last name. At any rate, he described how he was in the presence of god, the Supreme Being, etc., which was like a thousand welding torches all burning at the same time & then he found himself in the center of this massive bubble that was composed of all these sub-units of an incredible number. All the souls or whatever you wish to call them then told him, "We love you, Andy!" I think this supports that our individuality is a lasting thing. The Many as One.
One of the astounding things about Andy's account was the sheer, unvarnished look of awe & wonder on his face as he recalled it. If he had made up that experience, then he'd need an Oscar for Greatest Imitation of an Awestruck Person.

I doubt he made it up and reckon his Nde probably taught him a lot, as a portrayal of truth, i just think he confused his dreamstate with something akin to external beings in a spirit realm which imo is a non reality